110 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedimaster88]

Actually, Loghain had backstory reasons to distrust and dislike the Wardens. In the second novel Duncan and the other Wardens go behind both Loghain's and Rowan's back to take King Maric into the freakin' Deep Roads to go chasing darkspawn (and look, here's Duncan coming to undermine Loghain and put King Cailan on the front lines against darkspawn!), Maric also betrays Rowan with a Grey Warden, which Loghain would have hated.

 

What's wrong with Anora though?

 

As Shadowlord said previously. The wardens DIDN´T take Maric to the deep roads, he volunteered to go with them behind Loghain´s back. They actually hoped originally that Loghain would be the one to come with them to show the way because they didnt want to endanger Ferelden´s king. Loghain of course with all his hatred and paranoia about Orlais refused. Maric wanted to go because of certain things Flemeth told him years ago.

 

And yes Rowan was already dead during the second novel so.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

It's been a while since I've read them, so I'll defer to your wisdom there (though I still don't think Loghain would have appreciated the Wardens allowing Maric to go with them, personally).

 

As far as Anora is concerned, her supposed 'do nothing' attitude doesn't equal having blood on her hands. You said her hands weren't clean, so I thought you meant she'd actually done something wrong (besides the tired old betrayal debate). If inaction is a crime, though, everyone on earth is despicable. 

[Corker]

Maybe there was nothing that she could do against her father's regency, but she didn't even try. There's nothing in the game that would suggest that Anora wants to be Queen for anything other than to maintain her own power rather than for the sake of her people. If she was really a leader who put her people before herself, she would've opposed her father's actions: particularly starting a civil war, seizing power without the bannorn's consent, appointing Howe as Teryn knowing that he blatantly murdered the Couslands or putting a bounty on the only organization capable of fighting the very real Blight ravaging through her country. She's barely a few points above Cercei Lannister from ASoIaF (particularly on the incest bit) as far as competence and trustworthiness is concerned.
 

 

Opposed him with what army?  The royal army was massacred at Ostagar.  Gwaren's army was intact.  Amaranthine's forces were intact, occupying Denerim, and allied with her father.  She could either declare against her father - absolutely ensuring a civil war, since there's no way Loghain would back down and now the bannorn can rally to a cry of "For the queen!" - or declare with him, in the hope that her support would get the bannorn to fall in line.

 

It didn't work, because then the game would be less interesting, but it hardly screams "selfish power-hungry tyrant" to me.

[sylvanaerie]

If all Anora cared about was the throne, why does she oppose a warden who says "I'll support you, but Loghain has to die"?  If it was all about the throne, she'd be just as willing to toss Daddy Dearest under a bus, but she doesn't.  She opposes the warden at the Landsmeet, even knowing she may not win.  A calculated gamble that loses for sure, but Anora doesn't have DR plot to help her determine the most advantageous outcome of her actions.  She will also refuse to marry a man who killed her father, even if that costs her the throne, although once queen, she is willing to move past what happened, and not hold a vendetta against a warden who decided Ferelden was better off without Loghain.  

[ShadowLordXII]

It's been a while since I've read them, so I'll defer to your wisdom there (though I still don't think Loghain would have appreciated the Wardens allowing Maric to go with them, personally).

 

As far as Anora is concerned, her supposed 'do nothing' attitude doesn't equal having blood on her hands. You said her hands weren't clean, so I thought you meant she'd actually done something wrong (besides the tired old betrayal debate). If inaction is a crime, though, everyone on earth is despicable. 

 

Yeah, I could count her inaction here as a crime considering that she is a ruler with responsibilities towards her people. For someone who supposedly was the true power behind Cailan's throne, she didn't do jack to stop her father or Howe. She sat and let Loghain run her country into the ground for over a full year before she finally did something and even then, she had attempted to get her father off the hook for her crimes and is willing to backstab you just to stay on the throne and will side with her father knowing full well what he's become.

 

Inaction can be just as bad as wrongful action, especially when inaction empowers, endorses and enables people like Loghain and how to commit their actions.

[Cobra's_back]

Sylvanaerie wrote: "If all Anora cared about was the throne, why does she oppose a warden who says "I'll support you, but Loghain has to die"?  If it was all about the throne, she'd be just as willing to toss Daddy Dearest under a bus, but she doesn't.  She opposes the warden at the Landsmeet, even knowing she may not win.  A calculated gamble that loses for sure, but Anora doesn't have DR plot to help her determine the most advantageous outcome of her actions.  She will also refuse to marry a man who killed her father, even if that costs her the throne, although once queen, she is willing to move past what happened, and not hold a vendetta against a warden who decided Ferelden was better off without Loghain. "

 

Nicely said. I just played it this way. Told her she could have the throne but chose response #2 which said, Don't you think Loghain should answer for his crime.

 

She does want to be Queen but she wants a pardon for her father's actions. I played this several ways: she rules alone, she marries Alistair and Alistair rules alone. When I picked #2, I loss her support as expected.

 

A harden Alistair makes a better King by my standards. He handles the city Elves better. When I made Anora Queen alone, she had to put down an Elven rebellion in the alienage due to food shortage. When I made Alistair king alone he didn't have the rebellion. I just played both ways again to see it. He invited Shianni to be part of his council. This gives a voice for her people.

 

Queen Anora puts up a statue of her father as hero but no one visits it. Alistair takes time to reach out to people of all classes. To me he is the better pick, not because of his birth but because he cares for all.

 

As for Loghain, he is responsible for the Blight getting out of hand. Had he not been involved in so much treachery the Blight would have been stopped and all the south of Ferelden wouldn't have been destroyed.

 

I always kill Loghain. Yes, I understand his history but he crossed the line. For starter, he attempted murder twice and was selling citizens to slavers. He is way too dangerous and has no concept of right vs wrong. He justifies crimes easily and has the power to do great damage. He has no remorse and quickly tries to convince others to see it his way. It is not about Alistair. It is about all the citizens that had died because of his illegal actions.

 

The warden is not a mind reader. Letting Loghain live could have opened the door for Loghain to do it again. At this point, we don't know a warden had to die to kill the Archdemon.

[Cobra's_back]

Shadowlord wrote: "Yeah, I could count her inaction here as a crime considering that she is a ruler with responsibilities towards her people. For someone who supposedly was the true power behind Cailan's throne, she didn't do jack to stop her father or Howe. She sat and let Loghain run her country into the ground for over a full year before she finally did something and even then, she had attempted to get her father off the hook for her crimes and is willing to backstab you just to stay on the throne and will side with her father knowing full well what he's become.

 

Inaction can be just as bad as wrongful action, especially when inaction empowers, endorses and enables people like Loghain and how to commit their actions."

 

So true. If you take the job, you have to be responsible for the job. She had no control of the situation. My guess is that her father wanted control and she was just going to be a figurehead. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Yeah, I could count her inaction here as a crime considering that she is a ruler with responsibilities towards her people. For someone who supposedly was the true power behind Cailan's throne, she didn't do jack to stop her father or Howe. She sat and let Loghain run her country into the ground for over a full year before she finally did something and even then, she had attempted to get her father off the hook for her crimes and is willing to backstab you just to stay on the throne and will side with her father knowing full well what he's become.

 

Inaction can be just as bad as wrongful action, especially when inaction empowers, endorses and enables people like Loghain and how to commit their actions.

 

It's possible you're overestimating how much power a queen-regent has during wartime, especially when the soldiers are more loyal to their general (and Howe's to Howe) than to their dead king's wife. There was never any indication she had any control over the military, and legally she was not the ruler of Ferelden at all and had even less power with Cailan dead, so what did you think she could or should have done, without adding to the threat of civil war?

 

Besides removing herself from her father's lackey's clutches and delivering herself into your hands, and offering you aid.

 

When she does do something, like try to protect her own dad from execution or try to stop you from screwing her over by screwing you right back, people get all offended. It's rather delicious.

[Jigglypuff]

My main contention with him is the landsmeet, grey wardens do whatever is necessary to beat the blight and he stands in the way for a third recruit out of petty vengeance, even duncan would agree to having loghain as a warden it would've made four greywardens to kill the archdemon another improving the chances of winning.

 

He was like a brat that did not get his sippy cup and not a greywarden.

[ShadowLordXII]

 

It's possible you're overestimating how much power a queen-regent has during wartime, especially when the soldiers are more loyal to their general (and Howe's to Howe) than to their dead king's wife. There was never any indication she had any control over the military, and legally she was not the ruler of Ferelden at all and had even less power with Cailan dead, so what did you think she could or should have done, without adding to the threat of civil war?

 

Besides removing herself from her father's lackey's clutches and delivering herself into your hands, and offering you aid.

 

When she does do something, like try to protect her own dad from execution or try to stop you from screwing her over by screwing you right back, people get all offended. It's rather delicious.

 

My view on Anora also takes into account the fact that she was the de-facto ruler of Ferelden during Cailan's rule which implies right there that she has legitimate power within her own right. Yet, she never exercises any of the power if she had any. If she never had that power or it was taken away by her father, it wasn't really anything substantial then. In which case, why does she insist on being queen?

 

I'm not just talking about the military aspects either. Anora's strength clearly lies in diplomacy which has a lot of strong assets in ruling and governing a country. If Anora truly had a strong amount of influence, then she could have impressed upon the bannorn the importance of a unified front against the Blight and attempted to broker a working compromise. Maybe it wouldn't work, but at least she would have tried.

 

How about using her position as queen to invoke a Landsmeet and let the people formally choose who would lead them? If the Landsmeet chooses someone else as commander of the army until the Blight is over, then Anora should lend her support to said ruler.

 

What about using her influence to directly annul the bounty on the Grey Wardens? I doubt that she shared Cailan's fascination with the wardens, but she should be smart enough to know that the Blight can't be beaten without the wardens. The bounty was only sporadically enforced anyway with a lot of lords and captains who pretty much ignore it and has a conversation with said-wardens. The word of the Queen should be enough to completely destroy the bounty's legitimacy no?

 

But no, she won't support the wardens unless they agree to support her bid for the throne or agree to let Loghain off the hook for his numerous acts. Acts, that again, she was complacent in allowing to happen without even making a token effort to oppose them. Don't even tell me that she knew nothing of Howe's actions or of the Tevinter slavers until the Landsmeet.

 

I'm not even personally offended by the character and I'm sure that she has her pluses. It's just that as a ruler of a country, you have certain responsibilities to your people and Anora just fails on all accounts during the Blight. Trying to get your father off the hook for his crimes is inexcusable, understandable since that's her father, but inexcusable for the ruler of a country. My interactions with Anora always leave me doing everything possible to be able to win the Landsmeet in the event that Anora betrays me.

 

As for the whole "She's screwing you in response to you trying to screw her" argument? The Warden is attempting to save the country by uniting it under a leader who won't pointlessly antagonize the country's only hope for survival. Only one warden is actually an implicit threat to Anora's rule and that's a Female Cousland whose romancing Alistair and even with that in mind, Anora shows her lack of perspective in the situation. She only really wants to be Queen because she's convinced herself that she's the best possible ruler for Ferelden despite a year's lack of inaction and/or powerlessness in the face of a Civil War, her crazy father and the Blight. A real leader would at least acknowledge that they screwed up and either attempt to make amends or step aside for someone better.

 

It's like she wants to be sole ruler of Ferelden without accepting any of the responsibilities that go along with it. At least a hardened Alistair will stomach your decision to recruit Loghain and at least become co-ruler of Ferelden. Sure he had a hissy fit over Loghain being recruited, but from his perspective it's way more understandable and identifiable than "I want a known traitor and co-conspirator with a complete monster to be completely off the hook from punishment."

 

So again, not a big Anora fan. I'm sure that she's not as bad as her father and she's a great administrator which would make her great as a co-ruler with Alistair or Male Cousland. But there is nothing to convince me to trust Anora as sole ruler of Ferelden. Because there's nothing to suggest that she doesn't give a damn for anyone but herself.

 

Even Loghain says as much, "Anora's only real loyalty is to herself. She's capable and determined, but she'll sacrifice anything for her goals. Remember that."

[Shadow Fox]

My main contention with him is the landsmeet, grey wardens do whatever is necessary to beat the blight and he stands in the way for a third recruit out of petty vengeance, even duncan would agree to having loghain as a warden it would've made four greywardens to kill the archdemon another improving the chances of winning.

 

He was like a brat that did not get his sippy cup and not a greywarden.

Actually according to Gaider Duncan would have left Ferelden to the blight and regrouped in Orlais..