65 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

What do you mean by problems with completionist runs?

That the distinctions between the assets would be invisible in a completionist run, the same way the Collector Base choice is invisible unless you're playing low EMS. You'd have all of the assets anyway. 

If I was implementing this, I'd implement a galaxy map timer so you couldn't actually hit everything in one playthrough.

In addition one of the complaints about the ending is how these "solutions" seemingly spring out of nowhere.  If there were clues earlier on, that Shepard could potentially build towards, would that have been such a bad thing?

Depends on the presentation for me.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 février 2014 - 07:15 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
In addition one of the complaints about the ending is how these "solutions" seemingly spring out of nowhere.  If there were clues earlier on, that Shepard could potentially build towards, would that have been such a bad thing?

War assets seem like a secondary consideration here, with the heavy lifting being done by altered story sequences. For Control, it would have been sufficient to allow Shepard to agree with TIM that controlling the Reapers is a means to victory, but possibly disagree on the path to get there (experimentation on civilians) and/or who ultimately will control the Reapers (since TIM is sure to mandate himself).

For Synthesis, step one is eliminating peace on Rannoch. Step two is altering EDI's dialogues such that she never comes to understand organic motivations; her sequences are spent illustrating synthetic incapability to justify emotions or morality beyond survival and following pre-programmed orders. Step 3 is more dialogue on Shepard's status as a hybrid being beyond the few scenes we get on the Cerberus HQ mission. Step 4 is finding some way to justify Synthesis as an end to the Reaper threat before the Catalyst sequence.

Destroy is already sufficiently foreshadowed I think by the discussions about sacrifice, the ruthless calculus of war, etc.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 février 2014 - 07:24 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

CronoDragoon wrote...
War assets seem like a secondary consideration here, with the heavy lifting being done by altered story sequences. For Control, it would have been sufficient to allow Shepard to agree with TIM that controlling the Reapers is a means to victory, but possibly disagree on the path to get there (experimentation on civilians) and/or who ultimately will control the Reapers (since TIM is sure to mandate himself).

When he shows up at the end, some of the Renegade choices are less about "control is hopeless" than "you're indoctrinated and you'll never pull this off," as well as the "you've sacrificed too much" line that I think Shepard says no matter what. It doesn't really foreshadow the eventual choice the way it could or should, but it is there.

I wonder if part of the reason that the endings feel so dissonant is that decision-making in Mass Effect followed a fairly consistent system that suddenly got thrown out the window. It's usually Renegade if you agree with The Illusive Man, choose options with high collateral damage, and assert Shepard's immediate priorities as more important than anything else. It's usually Paragon if you agree with Anderson, minimize the immediate loss of life, and avoid dragging bystanders into the middle of the conflicts at hand. Then, all of a sudden, you can agree with Anderson and get all your synthetic allies killed, you can agree with the Illusive Man and not get anybody killed, or you can pick Synthesis and impose a radical change on the galaxy.

All three involve Shepard assuming an enormous amount of power and influence over the galaxy's future (i.e. somewhat of a Renegade tilt). And if you've been mostly picking dialogue options consistent with your general philosophical outlook, you might find yourself considering a choice that your Shepard seemingly wouldn't accept based on past statements.

[CronoDragoon]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
When he shows up at the end, some of the Renegade choices are less about "control is hopeless" than "you're indoctrinated and you'll never pull this off," as well as the "you've sacrificed too much" line that I think Shepard says no matter what. It doesn't really foreshadow the eventual choice the way it could or should, but it is there.

I know, but in the current endings these objections seem to go hand-in-hand with rejecting Control in its totality when it really shouldn't. For example, a logical follow-up for a Renegade after accusing TIM of being indoctrinated is to say, "And that is why I am the only one fit for this job." It should have been more possible for Shepard to be pro-Control, anti-TIM/Cerberus is what I'm saying.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 février 2014 - 08:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Just for amusement's sake, while discussing 'if only's that will never be-

Imagine how the story might have played had everyone known Control was viable from the start?

Or even, if people knew Control was viable, but didn't know about Destroy?

[Barquiel]

I guess there would be some disagreement about who is the best candidate to control the reapers...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

To be stuck... alone... in a computer... in control... of thousands of reapers.

Do they talk to you? Do they like you? Or do they hate you? I guess you don't care about those things anymore. You are a machine. A computer that is determining the best course of action for the galaxy... with your reaper toys as you watch over the many, and destroy those who threaten the many. But which many?

[eyezonlyii]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Just for amusement's sake, while discussing 'if only's that will never be-

Imagine how the story might have played had everyone known Control was viable from the start?

Or even, if people knew Control was viable, but didn't know about Destroy?

Honestly, as much as I wonuldn't pick it because of the implementation, Control sould have been seen as just as viable during ME2 up until you find out about the Human Reaper baby because until then, the Reapers are seen as purely stnthetic creations. If they are synthetic, there should be a way to control them. Then come ME3, instead of Arrival being the bridging DLC, it should have been Leviathon, to counter the fact that now since we know the Reapers are partly organic, there is a way to conrol that side too. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

To be stuck... alone... in a computer... in control... of thousands of reapers.

Do they talk to you? Do they like you? Or do they hate you? I guess you don't care about those things anymore. You are a machine. A computer that is determining the best course of action for the galaxy... with your reaper toys as you watch over the many, and destroy those who threaten the many. But which many?

I imagine going a little bit like:

Shepard: Harbinger
Harbinger: Shepard
S: Harbinger
H: Shepard
S: Harbinger
H: Shepard
 ...

[Invisible Man]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

To be stuck... alone... in a computer... in control... of thousands of reapers.

Do they talk to you? Do they like you? Or do they hate you? I guess you don't care about those things anymore. You are a machine. A computer that is determining the best course of action for the galaxy... with your reaper toys as you watch over the many, and destroy those who threaten the many. But which many?

I imagine going a little bit like:

Shepard: Harbinger
Harbinger: Shepard
S: Harbinger
H: Shepard
S: Harbinger
H: Shepard
 ...

why do I keep hearing wrex & grunts voices when I try to picture this in my head?

[ImaginaryMatter]

Invisible Man wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I imagine going a little bit like:

Shepard: Harbinger
Harbinger: Shepard
S: Harbinger
H: Shepard
S: Harbinger
H: Shepard
 ...

why do I keep hearing wrex & grunts voices when I try to picture this in my head?

Shepard reprograms the voice synthesizers on the Reapers to sound like his two favorite squadmates.

[Iakus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

To be stuck... alone... in a computer... in control... of thousands of reapers.

Do they talk to you? Do they like you? Or do they hate you? I guess you don't care about those things anymore. You are a machine. A computer that is determining the best course of action for the galaxy... with your reaper toys as you watch over the many, and destroy those who threaten the many. But which many?

But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.

Modifié par iakus, 19 février 2014 - 03:13 .

[AlanC9]

I see you've changed examples. Good move, since your first one made Control look good. But at least The Cold Equations made sense. Playing 1984 here is just desperate.

Modifié par AlanC9, 19 février 2014 - 03:22 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

I see you've changed examples. Good move, since your first one made Control look good. But at least The Cold Equations made sense. Playing 1984 here is just desperate.

Yeah was ging for the cold, passionless, mechanical logic that would unhesitatingly throw someone under the bus "for the greater good" since when I originally read that stroy back in college, we came up with a laundry list of other stuff that could have been tossed to save her.  

But then, Cold Equations would only apply if the Reapers were somehow actually needed in the galaxy.

Though I fail to see how 1984 is "desperate" The Shepalyst lot everything Shepard was, save the memories.  It's just a machine, absorbed into, even becoming 'Big Brother" ruling the galaxy as an immortal machine-god., doing what it thinks is right with no connection to the organics it rules.

[Podge 90]

In open world games, there will always be a conflict when the main story is so huge, and the side quests can be so small. In Mass Effect, you're trying to save the galaxy, but you can also take a time out to tell a security guard in Afterlife that he is being spied on by a random Salarian, or go and find a credit chit for a grumpy Volus.

In something like GTA, however, it isn't out of place to go and play a game of tennis with your cheating wife when the next 'big' mission is a bank robbery. So it's much harder to strike a more authentic balance between the big and small when the scope of the 'big' is so, well... big.

Modifié par Podge 90, 20 février 2014 - 09:58 .