44 réponses à ce sujet

[Akimb0]

Okay, everywhere I read seems to have conflicting answers. I've seen multiple threads recently about archery and they don't mention the "bug" at all, as if it doesn't exist. Meanwhile other threads say that Archery is still bugged and so it's damage is lower than it should be.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Longbows

This information is wrong?

I was reasonably sure I knew what was going on with them, but the more I read into it, the less sense it makes.

So does a Dex based rogue (or any class in fact) using a longbow work as intended or not? What about Shortbows?

I'm still trying to like this game, but seriously, totally vague descriptions, basic game functions still working incorrectly etc. Just taking it's toll on my patience.

Modifié par Akimb0, 21 janvier 2010 - 11:13 .

[beancounter501]

On the PC, with patch 1.02 shortbow/longbow it makes no difference.



To Hit: Strength +.5, Dexterity +.5. Exactly the same calculation as using a melee weapon. Easy to test just go equip a bow on your toon and your to hit will not change.



Damage: (Strength Mod + Dexterity Mod) / 2 - this is the main reason why archery is so weak. Your damage modifier will always be 50% below a melee toon.



I tested all of the above.

[sethroskull79]

On Console str or dex gives 0.3 damage per point spent. So if you spent all 3 points in DEX you'd only go up .9 in damage opposed to a warrior who put 3 in STR using a sword would get 3 damage. SO yeah dex is broken, at least for consoles. PC the patch is supposed to fix it.

[beancounter501]

One other point - go download the mod detailed tooltips. It replaces all of the vague generic descriptions with good detailed descriptions and calculations.


@ Sethroskul:  The actualy damage calculation is: (Ability Modifier) * (50% + a random number between 0% to 25%) for bows and whenn you are using a single weapon (Not dual welding).  So neither swords are bows get a full point of damage from strength. 

However, the ability modifier is divided by 2 for bows, so they only get half the damage per stat point that a sword user wold get.  Which is why bows are so weak in this game.

Modifié par beancounter501, 21 janvier 2010 - 01:33 .

[Mr_Raider]

Are you sure the attack is not 100% dex on longbows and shortbows?

[beancounter501]

100% percent. And it is beyond easy to test: just have your current melee toon equip a longbow/shortbow. Your attack rating does not change. Your attack rating stays the same regardless if you are using a sword, longbow or shortbow.

I used Alistar as my test subject since he had a 26 dexterity.

It sounds like the to hit/damage calculation is the exact same for PC/console.  Unless you are running a mod or the dex hotfix.

Modifié par beancounter501, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:04 .

[sethroskull79]

Dude I have had long talks about this with other people who did archery builds on console. We get 0.3 points damage for STR, DEX and CUN if Lethality is active. I know it's supposed to be 0.5 but its not. It's 0.3 tested and varified, as I am playing one right now and just checked again last night. Thats why we want our XBOX DEX fix patch, but that is probably never gonna happen. That being said, my Archer is still awesome. Scattershot, then A o S, then critical shot. I can do some extensive damage before they even see me.

[Akimb0]

Thanks for the replies guys.



So if I used Lethality, does it then use 100% of my CUN to work out damage?

or is it 50% dex 50% cun

[beancounter501]

sethroskull79 wrote...

Dude I have had long talks about this with other people who did archery builds on console. We get 0.3 points damage for STR, DEX and CUN if Lethality is active. I know it's supposed to be 0.5 but its not. It's 0.3 tested and varified, as I am playing one right now and just checked again last night. Thats why we want our XBOX DEX fix patch, but that is probably never gonna happen. That being said, my Archer is still awesome. Scattershot, then A o S, then critical shot. I can do some extensive damage before they even see me.

It is the same on PC.  A bow users gets half the damage a sword user gets per stat point - str/dex or dex/cun.  A sword user does NOT get a full point of dmg for each point of strength.  On average he gets .67 with a min of .5 and a max of .75.  A bow user gets an average of .335 damage for each point of dex with a min of .25 and a max of .375.

Akimb0 wrote...

Thanks for the replies guys.

So if I used Lethality, does it then use 100% of my CUN to work out damage?
or is it 50% dex 50% cun

No it will still be 50% dex + 50% cun.  However cun does not impact to hit at all.

[ijmorris]

let's define "weak", however:



melee fighter gives (for example) 40 points of damage, and then gets hit for 30 points of damage...



Ranged fighter gives 20 points of damage and then doesn't get hit at all....



why are we talking about how "weak" bows are?

[beancounter501]

LOL, more like melee fighter hits for 100+ and takes 10 points of damage due to armor. Besides those monsters are going to attack someone. Yes? It is not like they are just going to stand around while you plink away with your bow. The main advantage of the bow is to hit anyone on the battlefield at any time. Without AoS the archer is just taking up space in a party. Any melee toon will outperform any archer.



Best archer in the game? A dual weld rogue/warrior who took 4 talents out of the archery tree to get AoS. Open with Aos then switch to melee. Have your cake and eat it too.

[BlackVader]

beancounter501 wrote...

sethroskull79 wrote...

Dude I have had long talks about this with other people who did archery builds on console. We get 0.3 points damage for STR, DEX and CUN if Lethality is active. I know it's supposed to be 0.5 but its not. It's 0.3 tested and varified, as I am playing one right now and just checked again last night. Thats why we want our XBOX DEX fix patch, but that is probably never gonna happen. That being said, my Archer is still awesome. Scattershot, then A o S, then critical shot. I can do some extensive damage before they even see me.

It is the same on PC.  A bow users gets half the damage a sword user gets per stat point - str/dex or dex/cun.  A sword user does NOT get a full point of dmg for each point of strength.  On average he gets .67 with a min of .5 and a max of .75.  A bow user gets an average of .335 damage for each point of dex with a min of .25 and a max of .375.

Akimb0 wrote...

Thanks for the replies guys.

So if I used Lethality, does it then use 100% of my CUN to work out damage?
or is it 50% dex 50% cun

No it will still be 50% dex + 50% cun.  However cun does not impact to hit at all.

Just for confirmation's sake: This sums up my experience on the PC as well. Even with a melee weapon, you don't get +1 damage per Str, but rather about 0.6-0.7. I never bothered to check the exact number but it's LESS than 1.

[sethroskull79]

Best archer in the game? A dual weld rogue/warrior who took 4 talents out of the archery tree to get AoS. Open with Aos then switch to melee. Have your cake and eat it too.

Oh I agree with having a melee weapon set for your archer.  When enemies come in on me I don't just run away, I switch to my Adoh/Edge equiped with Paralyze runes and Lightning runes.  My archer does like 35-40 melee damage and 40-50 ranged damage.  So its in your best intrest to build up STR to 27 maybe even 31 to use some of the best Axes.  I guess you could use 2 daggers but I role with 1 axe and the Edge.  I want the Axameter.  But since I wanted to make an Archer, he starts off in ranged mode.

[TyroneTasty]

ijmorris wrote...

let's define "weak", however:

melee fighter gives (for example) 40 points of damage, and then gets hit for 30 points of damage...

Ranged fighter gives 20 points of damage and then doesn't get hit at all....

why are we talking about how "weak" bows are?

You make a good point. I think that archers theoretically are more support classes than a full out damage dealing class, however specced right they can do a pretty job of killing stuff. Up until they get the right talents however, they are pretty weak. I mean, they do have their crowd control/debuff skills, but they're put to shame by any sort of mage CC you have in your group. A sleep spell simply makes whatever crowd control the archer has pointless, and you'd be better off having a dual wielding rogue hitting dudes twice as fast. I think if the archer's skills didn't take so long to fire, they'd be more useful. However, I haven't seen any mod that adjusts that, so I just went with a more damage mod. Still, playing with an archer and without one, it is much easier without one, even with a damage re-balancing mod.

Of course, I might just be bad. Just wanted to offer my thoughts.

Modifié par TyroneTasty, 21 janvier 2010 - 04:17 .

[ijmorris]

All you need to do is read all the threads on Killing Dragons to find out that the Archer has a specific function in this game, and it's valuable regardless of the damage they do. If anyone recalls, if you had a party of folks who all used ranged weapons back in the Baldur's Gate days, you were largely invincible...I think they tried to limit that with DA:O...

[beancounter501]

I remember how good archery was back in the first Baldurs Gate. Not so useful in the second game.

Here is my point: there is no sustain talent that is really good in the archery line. Not like Indomitable, Momentum or shield wall. Master Archer does not help archery auto attack either. The best an archer has to offer is AoS and auto attack. The stats need for archery are the exact same stats you need for melee. So any warrior/rogue with a bow can auto attack almost as good as a dedicated archer. So why make a dedicated archer? 

Think of archery as a support weapon that your melee toons use to start a fight or against targets that you do not want or can not get close to. So why not boost dex to 30 and pick up AoS? Open with AoS then switch to melee. AoS beats most of the warrior specializations anyway. A traditional party with a S&B tank, a Dual Weld Warrior, a dual weld rogue and a mage could open up with three AoS. Then switch to melee. Very nice to insta kill three targets right off the bat.

Modifié par beancounter501, 21 janvier 2010 - 05:10 .

[sethroskull79]

I think (at least I did) people make archers just to satisfy the RPG ing of such character. I like the Elf from the woods who uses his bow character aspect. He serves well but without Sten and the way I made him, my archer would be massacred. That being said, I lead off every battle wth Scattershot, then a A o S and usually take 1 guy out. Follow that with a Crit Shot and maybe 2 are done before they even run to me.

[Akimb0]

ijmorris wrote...

let's define "weak", however:

melee fighter gives (for example) 40 points of damage, and then gets hit for 30 points of damage...

Ranged fighter gives 20 points of damage and then doesn't get hit at all....

why are we talking about how "weak" bows are?

Mage heals warrior, warrior is now putting out more (twice as much) DPS than an archer and has also taken the equivilent of "no damage".

The warrior is fighting an archer. The warrior does 40, takes 20. The Archer does 20, takes 20.

Bioware have said Bows arn't as good as they're supposed to be.  So there's really no arguement against it. We just have to wait for it to be fixed. However I was more interested as to why they're doing less damage than they should be, while already knowing that they are doing less damage than regular attacks from other weapons.

[beancounter501]

sethroskull79 wrote...

I think (at least I did) people make archers just to satisfy the RPG ing of such character. I like the Elf from the woods who uses his bow character aspect. He serves well but without Sten and the way I made him, my archer would be massacred. That being said, I lead off every battle wth Scattershot, then a A o S and usually take 1 guy out. Follow that with a Crit Shot and maybe 2 are done before they even run to me.

I can understand the role playing aspect.  And archery is really good in the opening seconds of a fight.  But once melee starts up and the party is being swarmed I think you are better off switching to a melee weapon.  Besides, how in the world could you shot in arrow at some dude that is swinging a sword at you?

I am simple saying that in my opinion you are better off getting both melee and archery talents.  You only need three talents out of the dual weld line to be effective.  You can still focus in archery, I just would not dedicate myself 100% to archery.

[sethroskull79]

I dedicated my characters talents to archery, but as said above when swarmed I switch and I do quite well with paralyze runes and a strong elemental rune. Even without dual weapon talents. I kinda like my guy now that he is formidable. Master Archer does seem to help me hit and for more damage. I can see how awesome a dual wield rogue can be if my guy is doing good with no talents in that field.

[BlackVader]

I'll just add a link here for anyone who is interested in actual testing on str/dex-influence for bow-damage.

[Akimb0]

BlackVader wrote...

I'll just add a link here for anyone who is interested in actual testing on str/dex-influence for bow-damage.

The formula for bow damage has already been stated in this thread. I'd prefer it if we can keep definitive answers in this one thread, so all the other confused people out there will be able to find it. After all, that's the reason I made this thread, because all the others talked a lot but didn't actually answer the basic Q.

[BlackVader]

Yes, the formula has been stated. There's still always the possibility of bugs, oversights or other reasons why even simple formulas might not work as intended.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread, which is also why I kept the post with the link as short as possible. Some people simply prefer actual testing over "it should worl this way"-formulas.

Anyway, my testing pretty much proved the formula, so I don't think any harm was done.

[Akimb0]

BlackVader wrote...

Yes, the formula has been stated. There's still always the possibility of bugs, oversights or other reasons why even simple formulas might not work as intended.
I didn't mean to hijack this thread, which is also why I kept the post with the link as short as possible. Some people simply prefer actual testing over "it should worl this way"-formulas.
Anyway, my testing pretty much proved the formula, so I don't think any harm was done.

My bad, I thought you'd started a whole new thread, but it was in the one which prompted me to make this one lol. Yes, your testing did support the formula in this thread so we have proof that it's almost certainly correct, so thanks for that

I don't think it will stop me using bows, I just wont be using them exclusively.

Modifié par Akimb0, 21 janvier 2010 - 07:45 .

[sethroskull79]

I don't think it will stop me using bows, I just wont be using them exclusively.

Amen to that.  Nothing wrong with that.  Makes sense to pull out a couple of blades when rushed.  I actually noticed that a few enemy archers do the same thing.