44 réponses à ce sujet

[Timortis]

I think people are exaggerating. I've been soloing with an archer, and it's actually easier than with melee in some ways. I don't think archers are weak at all. Sure, damage is less than melee, but you have range, and better debuffs. Suppressing Fire is hands down the best debuff in the game that isn't a spell.

[beancounter501]

Interesting. I was following your solo thread for a while and I seem to remember you saying the archer solo was extremely hard and you were considering quiting it. This was right before the fade. Did it get a lot easier once your dex became high?

Also, what exactly does suppressing fire do?

Modifié par beancounter501, 21 janvier 2010 - 09:23 .

[Timortis]

beancounter501 wrote...

Interesting. I was following your solo thread for a while and I seem to remember you saying the archer solo was extremely hard and you were considering quiting it. This was right before the fade. Did it get a lot easier once your dex became high?

Also, what exactly does suppressing fire do?

I think you may be confusing someone else's post with mine. Here's what I said in my thread about archery:

So I've been playing the archer a little bit, Rogue not Warrior, and it
did get tedious at around level 7 through 10, where my damage wasn't
cutting it, I was still extremely fragile, and was getting too many
misses but... Once I got Suppressing Fire, god that ability is so OP, I
became unhittable.

Basically, level 7 through 10 it was harder than with melee. Archers have very bad hit rate in the beginning, part of it is itemization, melee get weapons with attack bonus early on, part is that mobs have higher missile defense in many cases, part is range penalties. DW also get a +5 early on from talents, which is big at that level.

However, once you fill out the archery tree archers become very powerful. Suppressing Fire adds a stacking attack penalty to your target, and it's a sustain, so anything you're hitting soon becomes unable to hit anything at all, much less an archer with high defense.

[LightSabres]

My archer spent his first 5 points in the DW talent line to become really good and will be spending every point from now on in Archery to get the Achievement.



Low level archers SUCK

[SusanStoHelit]

I love suppressing fire - and I use archers a lot. I only have one pc archer - but leliana is always an archer for me and I use her in my party most of the time. Early on (just like 2-handed warriors) they aren't so good. But they become truly great after a while.



Song of Courage, Suppressing Fire, Scattershot, AoS, and the pet attacks (Bard/Ranger) really rocks, and I use stealth to drop aggro if I get it, so I rarely take much damage at all. Now, some of the other talents are useful too, but those are my key ones. And that's without taking into account their utility in lockpicking, and so on.

[beancounter501]

Thanks. Took some digging but here are the stats on suppressing fire if anyone is interested.



It applies a 7.5 attack penality to the target. On normal difficulty the penality lasts 10 seconds against a normal white critter. 7.5 seconds against a lieutenant, 6 seconds against a boss and 2.5 seconds against an elite boss. It does stack with itself. I imagine it would be effective. Probably even better if you have two archers using it on the same boss. If each could hit him three times you would impose a huge 44 point penality on attack. Cool.

[SusanStoHelit]

AoS is great - but it isn't the only useful skill of an archer. :-)

[TyroneTasty]

This question is probably kind of obvious, but is anyone who is having success with archers here using any archery mods? I get the feeling the answer is no, but I figured I'd ask.

Modifié par TyroneTasty, 21 janvier 2010 - 10:36 .

[Akimb0]

I actually run my Leliana as an archer (specifically to target mages with knockdowns/high damage) then to focus on a boss (or whichever enemy is the highest rank, if they're the same rank it's the one attacking my PC) with supressing fire. "Regardless of damage, if the enemy can't hurt you, you'll win eventually." was my motto for her. This was all before I started looking into the details of archery for my Elf PC. Nothing's really changed I don't think, sure the damage isn't as nice as I'd have liked, but I'll craft myself a nice bow I think using the "Winter Forge" mod and go to town with it

Timortis wrote...

beancounter501 wrote...

Interesting.
I was following your solo thread for a while and I seem to remember you
saying the archer solo was extremely hard and you were considering
quiting it. This was right before the fade. Did it get a lot easier
once your dex became high?

Also, what exactly does suppressing fire do?

I think you may be confusing someone else's post with mine. Here's what I said in my thread about archery:

So I've been playing the archer a little bit, Rogue not Warrior, and it
did get tedious at around level 7 through 10, where my damage wasn't
cutting it, I was still extremely fragile, and was getting too many
misses but... Once I got Suppressing Fire, god that ability is so OP, I
became unhittable.

Basically,
level 7 through 10 it was harder than with melee. Archers have very bad
hit rate in the beginning, part of it is itemization, melee get weapons
with attack bonus early on, part is that mobs have higher missile
defense in many cases, part is range penalties. DW also get a +5 early
on from talents, which is big at that level.

However, once you
fill out the archery tree archers become very powerful. Suppressing
Fire adds a stacking attack penalty to your target, and it's a sustain,
so anything you're hitting soon becomes unable to hit anything at all,
much less an archer with high defense.

Hey, thanks for posting here, I follow your thread vaguely, just look in from time to time and I noticed you'd started a solo archer. It's what inspired me to try one and it was when I decided to start one that I found all the conflicting information on what exactly was the "problem" with archery. So now with proof that it works (even if, I believe you said it can be "a little slow.") with another 3 members alongside I feel I can pull it off no problems at all. I may even try 3 archers and a mage, who will automatically switch to melee when the enemy gets in range. (Oh how I love the "full tactic slots" mod <3 )

Modifié par Akimb0, 21 janvier 2010 - 10:41 .

[Mr_Raider]

Does heavy/massive armor penalize archery in any way?

[Akimb0]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Does heavy/massive armor penalize archery in any way?

Master Archer

• Passive
• Requires: 28 Dexterity
• Requires: Master Combat Training

Deadly with both bows and crossbows, master archers receive
additional benefits when using Aim, Defensive Fire, Crippling Shot,
Critical Shot, Arrow of Slaying, Rapid Shot, and Shattering Shot. This
talent also eliminates the penalty to attack speed when wearing heavy
armor, although massive armor still carries the penalty.

[tetracycloide]

beancounter501 wrote...

Thanks. Took some digging but here are the stats on suppressing fire if anyone is interested.

It applies a 7.5 attack penality to the target. On normal difficulty the penality lasts 10 seconds against a normal white critter. 7.5 seconds against a lieutenant, 6 seconds against a boss and 2.5 seconds against an elite boss. It does stack with itself. I imagine it would be effective. Probably even better if you have two archers using it on the same boss. If each could hit him three times you would impose a huge 44 point penality on attack. Cool.

I'm not sure this is answerable without a combat log or extensive in game testing but I'll ask anyway.  When a shot lands does it add one to the current stack and refresh the duration or does it simply add it's own debuff for the specificed duration?  The difference bing that, with one shot landing every second, the latter would amount to a ~15 attack penalty on bosses since only two debuffs would be active at once while the former would stack infinitely as long as there was at least one shot landed every 2.5 seconds.

[soteria]

Given the way damage dots work, I suspect the latter--each debuff stacks, but has its own duration. To me, making it refresh its own duration or having it stack would make sense, but not both. Of course, Bioware did a lot of things in this game that don't make sense to me from a design perspective so maybe I shouldn't be making that assumption.

[beancounter501]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Does heavy/massive armor penalize archery in any way?

According to the scripts heavy armor/massive armor should add about a second onto your attack speed.  However, their are some commands in there that I am not a 100% sure what they do.  So I would recommend testing it.  That sort of stuff is usually pretty apparaent.  Not sure if rapid shot offsets it.  However, that only impacts the auto-attack.  The talents use a special animation that will never speed up or slow down.

Master archer negates that one second penality to heavy armor, but not massive.

tetracycloide wrote...
I'm not sure this is answerable without a combat log or extensive in game testing but I'll ask anyway.  When a shot lands does it add one to the current stack and refresh the duration or does it simply add it's own debuff for the specificed duration?  The difference bing that, with one shot landing every second, the latter would amount to a ~15 attack penalty on bosses since only two debuffs would be active at once while the former would stack infinitely as long as there was at least one shot landed every 2.5 seconds.

No need for a combat log - each penality has its own duration.

[sethroskull79]

OK I just did some calculations My archer has 50 DEX 44 CUN. His damage is 37.8 with a 9.6 damage Mage Eye Long Bow. If you add 50 +44 you get 94. Multiply by 0.3 you get 28.2. Thats what my damage is without the bow equiped. Add the the 9.6 bow and what do you get? 37.8. So on xbox 360 console DEX and STR replaced by CUN with Lethality EACH count for 0.3 for bow damage. Number don't lie. It would be cool if they did the .5 thing then his damage would be 56.6, alot more comparible to warriors.

[tetracycloide]

Actually the numbers on the character screen do, in fact, lie.

[sethroskull79]

OH well. I am tired of trying to find the real answer. If I add 3 points of dex and get .9 extra damage, then thats good enough for me. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Akimb0]

sethroskull79 wrote...

OH well. I am tired of trying to find the real answer. If I add 3 points of dex and get .9 extra damage, then thats good enough for me. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

From the other archery thread:

BlackVader wrote...

Lekwid wrote...

Wouldn't
a damage increase be shown in the character's inventory screen?  Even
with only 7 pts, there should be some difference in the dmg displayed. 
Unless there's a display bug too.

Yes, and it is the fastest and easiest way to check any damage increase. However actual testing should give better results.

So
anyway, I did my testing. I used my level 10 rogue. My first spec was
bard (which shouldn't affect any testing) and I used a mundane Longbow
tier 3 with a base damage of 7,20. My target was the bounty hunter mage
outside of Orzammar. I chose a mage because she probably has no armor
my 7+ points of armor penetration can't counter so her armor wouldn't
affect my testing. I play PC 1.02 with no mods (despite some cosmetical
changes)

Note that I had NO talents picked besides stealth2 to
get into save shooting postion. This especially means NO LEATHALITY. I
deactivated stealth before the first attack to avoid auto-crit. Also, I
did not have any party buffs, or sustained abilities active. For each
spec, I reloaded at least 4 times and needed about 4-5 shots to kill
the mage. So the damage numbers are based on roughly 18 attacks.

I'll list the stats in the following order:

STR + DEX = TOTAL
DAMAGE according to character screen
DAMAGE done to mage: mindamage - maxdamage  -> average damage

Ok, before respeccing, my stats looked like this:
24 + 39 = 63
24,4
21 - 27 -> 24

Then I respecced and pumped EVERYTING into dex resulting in
14 + 74 = 88
32,3
28 - 37 -> 32,5

After that, I did the same with strength. EVERYTHING went to it. Results:
70 + 18 = 88
32,3
28 - 36 -> 32

And while I was at it, I respecced once more, and this time devided my points between str und dex.
44 + 44 = 88
32,3
27 - 38 -> 32,5

Funny
side note: The avarage of the 3 last tests' avarage damage is 32,3.
Excactly what is written on the character screen! So I guess we can say
the character screen is correct.

So, there you go. It doesn't
matter at all whether you raise STR (CUN with leathality) or DEX if you
are an archer. A total of X points always results in Y damage per shot
on average.

Bottom line, bows are NOT broken* by any means. Well, longbows at least. Didn't test shortbows, I have to admit.
But
then again I DID test that the character screen shows higher damage for
shortbows if you increase either DEX or STR (+0.3 damage per point,
just like longbows). And since I now know for sre that the character
screen is correct, I'll just say longbows and shortbows BOTH get
+damage from STR AND DEX.

Think of it what you will. I'm done testing. Back to playing an amazing game called Dragon Age: Origins [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]


*By
"broken" I mean "bugged". They might still be "broken" as in "too
strong" or "too weak" but in any way at the moment they do pretty much
wha they are intended to do by the developers.

I probably should have copied this into here earlier, but it shows reasonably well that damage is consistant whichever stat you actually choose and yes, equates to around 0.3 damage per point.

[Mr_Raider]

Since bows use 50/50 dex/str for attack and damage, then what's the point wasting point on cunning and Lethality? Might as well raise str far enough to equip heavy armor and pick up master archer, and dump the rest in dex.

[BlackVader]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Since bows use 50/50 dex/str for attack and damage, then what's the point wasting point on cunning and Lethality? Might as well raise str far enough to equip heavy armor and pick up master archer, and dump the rest in dex.

Well, cunning has other uses besides replacing strenght. Many rogues will have at least 30 cunning for lockpicking anyway. There's also the bard songs and armor penetration. And as rogue, light armor is usually all you need, so more than 20 str would be wasted.

Still, if you want to wear medium or even heavy armor then sure, going for str over cunning is a totally viable option.