25 réponses à ce sujet

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

 So, I was wondering. 

Would it be possible, and if so, how feasible would it be, to have the ships usebiotic attacks instead of mass
acclerators? How useful would it be for a ship to fire a singularity or a flare, or use a biotic charge? 

[themikefest]

So it would fire a singularity at another ship causing that ship to spin around in circles?

I don't see that ever happening.

[AlexMBrennan]

No, it would not be possible because biotics specifically refers to mass effect manipulation via element zero nodules embedded in the nervous system of organic people.

How useful would it be for a ship to [...] use a biotic charge?

That's what mass relays do (when the writers can remember how they work re phasing through solid objects like the Citadel)

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

No, it would not be possible because biotics specifically refers to mass effect manipulation via element zero nodules embedded in the nervous system of organic people.

Well, since the nervous system operates through voltage and current, and Eezo isn't exactly uncommon outside the body, I don't see how this makes a difference. 

[Darks1d3]

There are few problems with this. The amount of Eezo required to allow ships to use biotic attacks would be astronomical, along with the monetary cost. They already require a lot of Eezo to run the mass effect cores. I don't think the cores could handle the additional Eezo needed for biotics, especially with the fact that biotics require a cool down period. Warships already have issues with heat and energy dissipation. Biotics would only compound the problem. The other problem is that biotics are effective for crowd control, but not for excessively armored opponents. Throw, lift, singularity, etc. would be useless in a ship to ship fight. I could see warp being useful to reduce the defenses of the enemy ship, but again, the cost would be too high. It makes more sense to spend the money to create, say, 10 ships without biotic abilities instead of only building ship that does. Besides, missles and gardian lasers are more destructive than most biotic attacks anyways.

I just don't see giving warships biotic ablities as a feasible idea.

Modifié par Darks1d3, 17 février 2014 - 02:32 .

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

How much Eezo can possible be in a human body, which is capable of making an explosion as large as flare does?

Warp is described as functioning similar to a disrupter torpedo, but can't be deflected by GARDIAN lasers (I'd guess.) The heat could be an issue, admittedly. Say you built a human sculpture out of pure eezo, how much would that cost and how much more would be there than in an actual human?My point is that since there seems to be very little in a human, a warp or flare from a much larger source could be several magnitudes stronger.

[Darks1d3]

TheOneTrueBioticGod wrote...

How much Eezo can possible be in a human body, which is capable of making an explosion as large as flare does?

Warp is described as functioning similar to a disrupter torpedo, but can't be deflected by GARDIAN lasers (I'd guess.) The heat could be an issue, admittedly. Say you built a human sculpture out of pure eezo, how much would that cost and how much more would be there than in an actual human?My point is that since there seems to be very little in a human, a warp or flare from a much larger source could be several magnitudes stronger.

I suppose "astronomical" is a bit of an overstatement. But remember, you're comparing a human that's normally 1.5 to 2 meters tall to a warship that can be up to 1500 meters long and 500 meters tall (rough estimates, but you get my point).

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

It would be more of an addendum, channel the warp or flare through a tube and let it do its magic

Say a human biotic weighs 100 kilograms. How much of that is eezo? 10 grams? Going with that, and you somehow rig up 20 kilograms of eezo to enable a biotic attack, then, if you scale up linearly, with 2000 times more eezo, you'd get a warp that is 2000 times stronger than what a human can do. Combine that with a biotic explosion from a flare that is 2000 times stronger than a human flare, then I think that would do some serious damage.

[DeinonSlayer]

Consider that actual space combat (as described in the codex) takes place at distances of many thousands of kilometers. Are any biotic attacks going to be effective at that range? The "Star Wars" battles we typically see make for better cinematics, but it's basically WWII naval battles transplanted into space. Things like carriers would be generally useless unless you intend to deploy their fighters in a planet's atmosphere and they have enough thrust to escape the gravity well and make it back to their home ship - you wouldn't see fighters engaging larger capital ships in space because the big ships would have vastly more engine power and could outrun the fighters without even trying. The carrier they rode in on would have to take pains (stay still) to ensure it didn't leave its deployed fighter complement in the dust if it came under attack.

Though, seriously, I've never understood why biotics cannot be artificially produced. What can the nervous system do that advanced enough technology can't replicate or surpass? Seems we already have something of a "warp gun" in the form of that Asari pistol.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 17 février 2014 - 03:12 .

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

If range is a limitation, it can be worked around, since the weapon wouldn't need to be spinal mounted for effectiveness. Put 20 kilograms of eezo in a turret on a frigate to fight at knifefight range, aka a few dozen kilometers.

[DeinonSlayer]

TheOneTrueBioticGod wrote...

If range is a limitation, it can be worked around, since the weapon wouldn't need to be spinal mounted for effectiveness. Put 20 kilograms of eezo in a turret on a frigate to fight at knifefight range, aka a few dozen kilometers.

Assuming you can get that close, is there an inherent advantage to biotic attacks? Can they do more damage more effectively than that same amount of eezo (or less) powering a conventional KEW?

"Rule of cool" gave us BS like "thanix missiles" and Synthesis. I'd rather not see it overriding established lore in the future.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 17 février 2014 - 03:19 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Though, seriously, I've never understood why biotics cannot be artificially produced. What can the nervous system do that advanced enough technology can't replicate or surpass? Seems we already have something of a "warp gun" in the form of that Asari pistol.

I guess the Organic brain is a mighty thing. After playing ME2 for the first time I figured the Reapers used humans because Biotics were how the Reapers functioned; however, as machines they couldn't use those abilities naturally so they started using Organic smoothies to gain access. This would explain why Harbinger said all that stuff about Biotic potential.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

[quote]DeinonSlayer wrote...

[quote]TheOneTrueBioticGod wrote...

Assuming you can get that close, is there an inherent advantage to biotic attacks? Can they do more damage more effectively than that same amount of eezo (or less) powering a conventional KEW?

[/quote]

Advantage? Well, imagine a warp that is 2000 times stronger than what a human can produce, and remember that warp has been compared to a disruptor torpedo. Then think of a biotic explosion that would happen when you hit the warp field with a flare. That's just my thinking. 

Second point? We can't know. The codex never says anything about how much eezo it takes to operate kilometer long mass accelerator. 

[DeinonSlayer]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Though, seriously, I've never understood why biotics cannot be artificially produced. What can the nervous system do that advanced enough technology can't replicate or surpass? Seems we already have something of a "warp gun" in the form of that Asari pistol.

I guess the Organic brain is a mighty thing. After playing ME2 for the first time I figured the Reapers used humans because Biotics were how the Reapers functioned; however, as machines they couldn't use those abilities naturally so they started using Organic smoothies to gain access. This would explain why Harbinger said all that stuff about Biotic potential.

I honestly think biotics are overrated. Granted, ME2's Shockwave attack kicks ass, but according to the lore, Jack would have to scarf down one of Adam Jensen's candy bars and probably take a nap after doing it three or four times. That might have been interesting to implement - I could see omnitools needing some kind of replaceable power source as well.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 17 février 2014 - 03:26 .

[Darks1d3]

ah, screw it. nvm.

Modifié par Darks1d3, 17 février 2014 - 03:49 .

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Biotics are simply the current from the nervous system running through eezo within the body. The way the person moves their body is what determines how the mass effect fields generated by this are used.

If I were running an R&D lab, I'd look into it.

[DeinonSlayer]

TheOneTrueBioticGod wrote...

Biotics are simply the current from the nervous system running through eezo within the body. The way the person moves their body is what determines how the mass effect fields generated by this are used.

Which is precisely why I see no reason it couldn't be done far better by, say, an artifical arm or a component of body armor. I just question its utility in space combat.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Which is precisely why I see no reason it couldn't be done far better by, say, an artifical arm or a component of body armor. I just question its utility in space combat.

At what range would this weapon work at? If it had a range of 100 kilometers, then it could be mounted on a frigate. 2000X stronger warp + 2000X stronger flare= astronomical biotic explosion, if the previous two attacks weren't already capable of destroying the ship. 

[Iakus]

There is functionally no real difference between a biotic barrier and a kinetic barrier. So in theory it could be possible.

But the amount of eezo and power needed to throw biotics around the distances needed and to affect things the size of starships would be...problematic...

[DeinonSlayer]

iakus wrote...

There is functionally no real difference between a biotic barrier and a kinetic barrier. So in theory it could be possible.

But the amount of eezo and power needed to throw biotics around the distances needed and to affect things the size of starships would be...problematic...

But, then, these days it seems rule of cool > internal consistency.

"Our thanix missiles do a f*ckload of damage!"
"But I thought Thanix systems fired a stream of molten metal at relativistic-"
"SHUT UP!!!"

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 17 février 2014 - 04:57 .

[Iakus]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

iakus wrote...

There is functionally no real difference between a biotic barrier and a kinetic barrier. So in theory it could be possible.

But the amount of eezo and power needed to throw biotics around the distances needed and to affect things the size of starships would be...problematic...

But, then, these days it seems rule of cool > internal consistency.

"Our thanix missiles do a f*ckload of damage!"
"But I thought Thanix systems fired a stream of molten metal at relativistic-"
"SHUT UP!!!"

okay, let me add an "if Mass Effect was internally consistent" to that 

[katamuro]

If we consider that biotics are only present in living things with a nervous system then equipping a warship with a system would require a full understanding of how it works and the ability to generate it without a person.

In ME universe of ME1 and ME2 before the numerous retcons of ME3 the most effective weapons are basically Kinetic Kill weapon. Mass Accelerator guns of the starships are powerful because they impart a huge momentum on the "round" fired.
Thanix cannon makes sense because if a molten stream of metal is accelerated to then instead of just firing separate KEW's (Kinetic Energy Weapons) you fire a stream of them which overloads the barriers much faster since it does not stop. Thanix missiles is a logical fallacy that should not have been included.

There is a reason why modern engineers are working on a railgun rather than some expensive missile with a plasma warhead or some such. Firing a slug of iron at several times the speed of sound is A)cheaper and B)you can have more of them and if you miss you can do that again.
For military those things are very important especially since Anti-missile protection systems are becoming more and more effective. While you could stop several supersonic guided missiles its much harder to stop several dozen "dumb" rounds flying at more than five times the speed of sound.

And considering the ranges at what ME universe battles are supposed to happen then having a biotic weapon that is very expensive and probably very hard to maintain that also probably cannot be used in long ranges of several dozen to hundreds of kilometres is kinda like having a missile you can only fire if the weather is nice. Powerful, expensive but not very useful in fleet battles.

[shodiswe]

The Leviathans might be able to... Who knows they might be able to fly through space like superman and fart blackholes at their enemies.

They clearly got Asari like abilities to invade the minds of other lifeforms aswell. And they are space ship size, least Frigate size.... Who knows, those three we saw coudl even have been relatively young Leviathans. There might be older bigger ones out there who killed those Reaperships.

[AlexMBrennan]

TheOneTrueBioticGod wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

No, it would not be possible because biotics specifically refers to mass effect manipulation via element zero nodules embedded in the nervous system of organic people.

Well, since the nervous system operates through voltage and current, and Eezo isn't exactly uncommon outside the body, I don't see how this makes a difference. 

If a piece of technology is doing the eezo manipulating to get the desired effect then it is, by definition, no longer a biotic effect. Because that's how "biotic" is defined. You might as well ask for dry water.

[shodiswe]

I think the power of biotics compared to most forms of technology controlled masseffectfields is the variability and the way you can adapt it on the fly.

Technology created mass effect fields are likely to be more preses if that's what you're going for, or more powerful if you got a powerfulmachine.

Maybe a Gethplatform with a very complext setup of Eezo cores/generators could manipulate an eezofield in a way similar to what a biotic does. There would likely have to be a lot of them and some very sofisticated technology.

I think lore described Biotics as Eezo contamination that got stuck in the nervosystem of living being, and then the lifeform could learn to manipulate with with neuralimpulses to create specific effects.

Customising Biotic effects beyong a simple push/pull or similar that's been trained over years of training is probably a lot harder.

Modifié par shodiswe, 17 février 2014 - 03:32 .