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[RangerSG]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

if you didn't do the arrival dlc, and played the by the book paragon in me2, I have a hard time with Anderson's "the s**t you've done... any other soldier would have been tried, court-martialed and discharged" (also note being court-martialed is being tried, no need to say it twice)
I wish my shepard could have replied something like... name me one thing... I'm only asking for one you could court-martial me over!

I agree. My idealist paragon who didn't do Arrival really wanted to say the same thing. And then remind them that Spectres are outside the Alliance Chain of Command. And if the Alliance didn't repsect his judgment, they shouldn't have recommended him to be the first human Spectre.

I interpreted it as just being about having worked with Cerberus in that context. If, for example, an American special forces soldier was reported KIA, then turned back up two years later working with Iranian intelligence and claiming that it was a temporary alliance against some terrorist group, my guess is that he gets thrown in the brig while the higher-ups try to sort this out and make sense of the story. Even if the operation was apparently successful and did not get any civilians killed (i.e. analogous to not doing Arrival), that guy probably wouldn't just get a pat on the back and an immediate reinstatement after turning himself in.

And Shepard is presumably still under the Alliance's jurisdiction as a citizen, if not as a soldier, at the time of ME2 and the start of ME3. I'm guessing that associating with Cerberus for any reason is a criminal offense under Alliance law.

I understand what it 'claims' the charge is. But it's bunk. The Alliance doesn't prosecute every person who worked with Cerberus. They didn't go after Chakwas. And no, a Spectre is not under authority of anyone but the Council. That's the whole purpose of the organization, to carry out what the Council wishes. Any task you take on for the Alliance, Cerberus, or anyone else is a nicety. A Spectre's agenda is set by the Council. Full Stop.

The Alliance gives up all right to pass judgment on Shepard the moment they recommend the PC to the Council. And this is said repeatedly in ME1, and used BY Hackett on one occasion.

So no. It undercuts established lore from the get-go. Worse, it was entirely unnecessary. Shepard could have gone to the Alliance with Liara's plan, and been in the exact same place. They could've been betrayed by Cerberus on Mars even, so that TIM and Shep are in the same place. All it would've taken is reversing Mars & Earth pt1.

Modifié par RangerSG, 18 février 2014 - 11:46 .

[RangerSG]

StreetMagic wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The Alliance hasn't even built their quota in ME1. None of the races (except maybe the turians) have.

As of 2183, the turians had 37 dreadnoughts, the asari had 21, the salarians had 16, the Alliance had 6 and the volus had 1.

And I would imagine that the Alliance's quota went up to match the asari and salarians once they joined the Council.

It depends if you let the DA go down. If you do, the Turians feel no longer bound by the treaty and ramp up dreadnought production.

I don't blame them though. At least everyone's dropping pretense.

True, but supposedly the Alliance is taking on the majority share of Citadel Defense in ME2. There's some inconsistency in fleet sizes during ME2 to ME3.

Shocking, I know.

[RangerSG]

themikefest wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

That's not the Alliance. That's Terminus colonies like Horizon who pretty much say that word for word.

That would have been the mandate of all colony protection efforts. It's just by the time the game series starts, the Alliance doesn't think they can accomplish this goal without Council help. Anderson expresses this predicament in ME1. In order to get the help one needs, they need to play the game. But to play the game, they need to sell themselves out a bit. To me, that's no good in the longrun.

And there are probably tangible interests that are sold out too. The Alliance Fleet isn't as strong as it could be if the Alliance was autonomous. And like that one admiral says, a lot of cash went to a "co developed" boondoggle like the Normandy. Just to play nice with the Turians.

Anyways, the lack of self-sufficiency here should have never been a problem in the first place.

The Alliance fleet would be a lot larger and stronger if humanity didn't sign that stupid treaty 30 years ago. I would never of agreed to Aliens

Perhaps, but that "co-developed boondoggle" advances Alliance shipbuilding tech considerably. And it wasn't just Alliance creds that went into the Normandy. 

[von uber]

RangerSG wrote...
 All it would've taken is reversing Mars & Earth pt1.

Agree with this, makes the most sense.
Meant Mars could have been an easy tutorial like Eden Prime in ME1.

[RangerSG]

von uber wrote...

RangerSG wrote...
 All it would've taken is reversing Mars & Earth pt1.

Agree with this, makes the most sense.
Meant Mars could have been an easy tutorial like Eden Prime in ME1.

Yep. And then you don't have the shock of the Reapers frying Earth undone by all those tutorial commands that you can't turn off. Or the silly committee scene. You could take your commission back or not as fit the character (with consequences to War Assets and Hacket's trust for declining, to be sure). But the SR2 having to be an Alliance ship, and have all those uncovered pipes hanging around from the 'unfinished refit' just comes off tacky to me. I 'liked' the clean look of the Normandy in ME2. And moving the Armory may make sense for missions, but leaving half the deck blocked and useless isn't even consistent with a frigate, where space is at a premium (especially one with a monster drive core).

Oh well. 

[von uber]

It amazes me they never even tidied the place up during the campaign. Trip hazard anyone?

I for one would have spruced up my cabin so I could make Liara comfortable, then send the resultant vids to themikefest for his personal entertainment.

[thehomeworld]

Its a good idea as far as get out of jail free cards go, I couldn't buy half the things shep was able to do if he was simply a solider or merc I'd expected the law not just to say they'd come after him but do and also imprison you sort of like how in Red Dead the law will come get you but make them on par with you for skill and life bar.

[themikefest]

I to hate the empty rooms. Miranda should've been put in her office, Jack could've occupied the room Allers uses, have Thane in the room he occupied in ME2, Grunt can be put in his room that he had in ME2 moving Javik to the room that Legion had in ME2

[ImaginaryMatter]

von uber wrote...

RangerSG wrote...
 All it would've taken is reversing Mars & Earth pt1.

Agree with this, makes the most sense.
Meant Mars could have been an easy tutorial like Eden Prime in ME1.

I would also add Earth has a sizeable hub before the Reaper invasion occurs. This way there would be some personal to 22nd century Earth.

[Invisible Man]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

von uber wrote...

RangerSG wrote...
 All it would've taken is reversing Mars & Earth pt1.

Agree with this, makes the most sense.
Meant Mars could have been an easy tutorial like Eden Prime in ME1.

I would also add Earth has a sizeable hub before the Reaper invasion occurs. This way there would be some personal to 22nd century Earth.

I have to agree with this here. I've have loved to grab a bite to eat at samesh's restaurant before the reapers destroyed everything.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Speaking of the whole "an Alliance citizen, subject to its laws" thing. Ignoring the fact that the Alliance has no form of jurisdiction whatsoever over Shepard, how would it work if there were a human, born to human parents, who both lived on Palaven. Would he be a citizen of the Hierarchy or the Alliance?

Wait.... the names of most of the governments are really stupid, all for this reason. I gotta say, as much as I really don't like the Earth Systems Alliance, at least they got the name right. No confusion over jurisdiction.

[TheMyron]

themikefest wrote...

I to hate the empty rooms. Miranda should've been put in her office, Jack could've occupied the room Allers uses, have Thane in the room he occupied in ME2, Grunt can be put in his room that he had in ME2 moving Javik to the room that Legion had in ME2

I don't think EDI would like having someone with a firm anti-AI attitude living in such close proximity to her/it's core.

And as I said before, can you imagine the humorous time you'd have settling some many confrontations caused by squad/crew unity?

Examples:

After inviting Miranda aboard the Normandy and getting a "yes" from her, as soon you go back on board yourself, you get summoned to the Mess Hall, and at the entrance of the XO cabin, you find Miranda with her bags having a confrontation with the cabin's new resident... you know who...

James Vega and Jacob Taylor having different opinions in the Hangar/Armory...

Kelly Chambers and Samantha Traynor bickering in the CIC for one thing or another... starting with who belongs on the right hand computer...

James Vega comparing muscle mass and things like that with Grunt in the Hangar/Armory...

Samara and Liara questioning each other's standards... or something... waddya think? 

Ashley and Miranda having a confrontation over what exactly is "proper attire"...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Zaeed and Diana Allers arguing over who sleeps in the cargo bay.... oh wait. no argument. I see a compromise.

[CrutchCricket]

StreetMagic wrote...
That would have been the mandate of all colony protection efforts. It's just by the time the game series starts, the Alliance doesn't think they can accomplish this goal without Council help. Anderson expresses this predicament in ME1. In order to get the help one needs, they need to play the game. But to play the game, they need to sell themselves out a bit. To me, that's no good in the longrun.

And there are probably tangible interests that are sold out too. The Alliance Fleet isn't as strong as it could be if the Alliance was autonomous. And like that one admiral says, a lot of cash went to a "co developed" boondoggle like the Normandy. Just to play nice with the Turians.

Anyways, the lack of self-sufficiency here should have never been a problem in the first place.

Er, maybe because they can't?

1. Humanity has been on the galactic front for less than a century. Expecting them to be a fully independent power with secured colonies all over the galaxy is just unrealistic.
2. All council races are interdependent.
3. Justification for building the Normandy might've been scarce when the project was undertaken but I'd say she more than paid for herself by the end.

As for the colonies, it's the Alliance's own damn fault they stretch themselves too thin and the fleets can't adequately protect them. It's also on them that they stretch to where there's getting all up in others' grill (batarians) where again, whether they independently have the strength and resources to back those moves is questionable. And finally, there's gotta be some bull**** going on if all those people in the Terminus would rather live in those lawless regions than be under the Alliance banner.

So yeah, there's plenty wrong with the Alliance but little of it has to do with aquiescing to alien demands. We got off to a bad start with the First Contact War. Not our fault, just luck of the draw. Unfortunately that made diplomacy and compromise all the more important.

[TheMyron]

Protection of the Anti-Alliance colonies is simple, they should keep themselves privately armed.

[themikefest]

TheMyron wrote...

I don't think EDI would like having someone with a firm anti-AI attitude living in such close proximity to her/it's core.

And as I said before, can you imagine the humorous time you'd have settling some many confrontations caused by squad/crew unity?

Examples:

After inviting Miranda aboard the Normandy and getting a "yes" from her, as soon you go back on board yourself, you get summoned to the Mess Hall, and at the entrance of the XO cabin, you find Miranda with her bags having a confrontation with the cabin's new resident... you know who...

James Vega and Jacob Taylor having different opinions in the Hangar/Armory...

Kelly Chambers and Samantha Traynor bickering in the CIC for one thing or another... starting with who belongs on the right hand computer...

James Vega comparing muscle mass and things like that with Grunt in the Hangar/Armory...

Samara and Liara questioning each other's standards... or something... waddya think? 

Ashley and Miranda having a confrontation over what exactly is "proper attire"...

Kelly would have flashbacks of being abducted by the collectors, so she wouldn't be on the ship.

Samara would be better to have than T'soni and she would be a better squadmate to bring to Thessia.

Miranda would be in her office because T'soni has no use after Mars

Jacob wouldn't be onboard since he is protecting his people and wanting to stay close to his pregnant girlfriend

Vega and Grunt would have a lot of fun dialogue between each other

The robot serves no purpose as a platform. It can do everything as a hologram. And with Javik in the room the dialogue would be hilarious.

[DPSSOC]

CrutchCricket wrote...
As for the colonies, it's the Alliance's own damn fault they stretch themselves too thin and the fleets can't adequately protect them. It's also on them that they stretch to where there's getting all up in others' grill (batarians) where again, whether they independently have the strength and resources to back those moves is questionable. And finally, there's gotta be some bull**** going on if all those people in the Terminus would rather live in those lawless regions than be under the Alliance banner.

So yeah, there's plenty wrong with the Alliance but little of it has to do with aquiescing to alien demands. We got off to a bad start with the First Contact War. Not our fault, just luck of the draw. Unfortunately that made diplomacy and compromise all the more important.

On the bold that's actually on the Council.  It's mentioned in ME1 a number of times, as well as in a codex I believe, that places like the Attican Traverse and the Skyllian Verge (where the Alliance is getting up in the Batarians grill) are the only areas the Council will allow the Alliance to colonize.  The Council's tolerance of human colonies is dependent on them acting as a buffer between the Terminus and central Citadel Space (where the Turians, Asari, and Salarians colonize).  It's not unreasonable (new kid on the block can't expect choice real estate) but given the Council also refuses to help with any of the problems they knew full well the humans were going to have it's still a raw deal.

[RangerSG]

DPSSOC wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
As for the colonies, it's the Alliance's own damn fault they stretch themselves too thin and the fleets can't adequately protect them. It's also on them that they stretch to where there's getting all up in others' grill (batarians) where again, whether they independently have the strength and resources to back those moves is questionable. And finally, there's gotta be some bull**** going on if all those people in the Terminus would rather live in those lawless regions than be under the Alliance banner.

So yeah, there's plenty wrong with the Alliance but little of it has to do with aquiescing to alien demands. We got off to a bad start with the First Contact War. Not our fault, just luck of the draw. Unfortunately that made diplomacy and compromise all the more important.

On the bold that's actually on the Council.  It's mentioned in ME1 a number of times, as well as in a codex I believe, that places like the Attican Traverse and the Skyllian Verge (where the Alliance is getting up in the Batarians grill) are the only areas the Council will allow the Alliance to colonize.  The Council's tolerance of human colonies is dependent on them acting as a buffer between the Terminus and central Citadel Space (where the Turians, Asari, and Salarians colonize).  It's not unreasonable (new kid on the block can't expect choice real estate) but given the Council also refuses to help with any of the problems they knew full well the humans were going to have it's still a raw deal.

This. Humanity is expected to be the first line of defense against the Terminus. But they're not given aid in that defense. The Council races are good at that. Uplift the Krogan, then expect them to become a client race after they save the galaxy. hmmm. 

[RangerSG]

themikefest wrote...

I to hate the empty rooms. Miranda should've been put in her office, Jack could've occupied the room Allers uses, have Thane in the room he occupied in ME2, Grunt can be put in his room that he had in ME2 moving Javik to the room that Legion had in ME2

Miranda should've been on the crew, no doubt in my mind. Same with Jack, though I doubt she would've moved from her hidey hole.

Thane actually made sense to me. I know some people were mad, but really, he was looking for a way to die. He said he had about a year left when you recruit him. So what do you really expect?

Javik in the AI Core? No. He could be in Allers' room. 

And Liara could've moved the Shadow Broker's effects into Life Support, or the Starboard Observation Deck, and just let the VS stay in the Crew's Quarters, where Kaiden is half the time anyway.

[CrutchCricket]

StreetMagic wrote...
I didn't say "secured" colonies. I'm talking about even being allowed to do it on their own. A work in progress. It could be done, if their hands weren't tied behind their backs. That ability was dashed the minute we met the Council. We are a subjugated race in this setting, whether it looks like it or not. I envy the Batarians more. At least they've got their balls left.

And on that note, of course, you can't do much when you're a subject. Things do look a bit unrealistic when you're somebody's b*tch. That's why you get out of that mess.

No one's allowed to do it on their own. And races that are on their own are hardly the exemplar of strength (geth notwithstanding). The krogan are broken (lol rhyme), the quarians are a hair from extinction and the batarians are just really, really lucky that they have an edge of the galaxy they can back up against and that their smokescreen has held up. Because that's what's most of the percieved batarian strength is: a clever ruse.

You want subjugated species, look at the volus, elcor, drell and hanar. Those are "someone's b*tch", either willingly for protection or because they lack the will and strength to be otherwise. We are not like that. The choice isn't binary between "fully independent, island unto themselves"  and "someone's b*tch". Stop thinking in absolutes. We had a rocky start out of the gate. But breaking free of the system isn't an option at this point. We need to work within it to rise.

Bottom line is, the Council's in charge in our neck of the woods and they want to keep power. We'll have to play their little game for now, until we can advance enough to dictate terms in our favor (which is why Cerberus, at least before they went all terrorist and crazy, was a good idea). And if any of the accusations in the ME2 council dies scenario about human favoritism are true, that's proof that we'd be no different.

tl;dr: Those in power dictate terms in their favor, regardless of who they are. Blaming the current group for that, simply because "they're not you" is hollow and meaningless.

In fact, everyone needs to get out of this mess. And then start killing each other. Yay. Space UN doesn't make a cool game setting.

Well you might like my post-ending EU then, where an age of strife settles and everyone's at everyone's throats for slights or perceived slights during and before the war.