wright1978 wrote...
I want to be able to chafe at Alliance control just as i chafed at TIM's rather than the implied its a dream come true to be back in blue. A few dialogue options and a bit less auto-salute and i'd have felt a lot better able to carry forward my imported Shep.
shodiswe wrote...
She also realised the economic strength of humanity and that the council needed/wanted humanitys support to secure the attican traverse.
Modifié par Barquiel, 18 février 2014 - 09:45 .
Guest_StreetMagic_*
sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
I never saw Liara trying to guilt Shepard into thinking about some "galactic community." I saw Ashley as a relic of a past age. It was time to move on.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 18 février 2014 - 09:46 .
They noticeably softballed the Quarian rationale to make the Geth more sympathetic by comparison, going out of their way to avoid any mention of previously-established facts in the lore which painted the Geth in a negative light while highlighting every Citadel reg the Quarians were breaking. And what was that about "causing trouble on the Turian border" that they never mentioned before or went into any detail about. Weekes did just about everything he could to trash them. When it falls to Renegade Shepard to articulate their position for them, something has gone seriously wrong. But I digress...sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Ubermensch.... Clearly. However there was a 300 year old treaty with the Council regarding Rannoch and going to war with the Geth. To break this treaty required a vote. A unanimous vote. In ME2 if you turned the evidence over to the Admirals, the fleet divided and there was a struggle. The Civilian Fleet (the largest) and Koris didn't want war. The military can't arrest everyone. The live ships supply food and are controlled by the Civilian Fleet. So what Gerrel did was took the vote for war against the reapers -- this was why they armed their civilian ships and live ships with thanix weapons. Then what we're not told is that Gerrel probably used that mandate as a means to say "We need a world to drop off our civilian population. The only one suitable is Rannoch." Hence war with the Geth. It made sense, but it was so poorly written.
There was that bit where she went on about humanity being "a bully" and how Shepard should strive to correct that perception by pandering to Council interests... frankly, I don't see how it really applies, especially when the Turians are the ones who make a habit of subjugating other races whereas humans are, at worst, expanding their territory into uninhabited systems faster than others.I never saw Liara trying to guilt Shepard into thinking about some "galactic community." I saw Ashley as a relic of a past age. It was time to move on.
Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 18 février 2014 - 09:48 .
Guest_StreetMagic_*
You dislike the Council because they're alien? Wow. That sounds like the opinion of someone who'd sign off on Cerberus' more, shall we say "racy" policies. Not the lolterrorism or imitation stormtroopers maybe, but definitely like those people who only join because they think human advancement means the same thing as anti-alien.StreetMagic wrote...
There's a bigger difference than that. The Alliance is human. And that's mostly what I care to represent. And I still like viewing humanity as a seperate, competitive entity (not necessarily a hateful or antagonistic one though).
There's a good scene in the first novel with Ambassador Goyle (predecessor to Udina), where she's about to present herself to the Council for some problem the Alliance has caused. And as she's approaching the Council Chambers, she's going through all of her fears and notions about how best to appease them. But once she gets there, and sees them speaking down to her, she realizes how much they just view humanity and the Alliance as children. And how much humanity needs to apologize for simply being itself. In that moment, she forgets her fears, and cuts into them. She's sick for apologizing for just being human. She reclaims her self-respect.
This is kind of the spirit of ME1 Renegade's politics. And by extension, most in the Alliance. To not apologize for being human (ME2 I think is more about whether you'll distance yourself from extremist humans like Cerberus). Some Paragon lines in ME1 are about how we're too independent for our own good.. that we need to ingratiate ourselves with the "galactic community". Or even care about some ideal of the "galactic community" to begin with. Kaidan is like this. Liara tries to guilt you into thinking like this. Ash is trying keep you from thinking like this.
Err... Now I forget where I was going with this. Basically though, just the fact that the Alliance is human is a night and day difference to me, compared to the Council. Even if they are incompetent.
StreetMagic wrote...
Liara is basically like Wynne in DAO. They both built up an ideal of Wardens/Spectres and then wish you conform to it.
They can both go **** themselves.
Modifié par Steelcan, 18 février 2014 - 09:58 .
Guest_StreetMagic_*
CrutchCricket wrote...
You dislike the Council because they're alien? Wow. That sounds like the opinion of someone who'd sign off on Cerberus' more, shall we say "racy" policies. Not the lolterrorism or imitation stormtroopers maybe, but definitely like those people who only join because they think human advancement means the same thing as anti-alien.StreetMagic wrote...
There's a bigger difference than that. The Alliance is human. And that's mostly what I care to represent. And I still like viewing humanity as a seperate, competitive entity (not necessarily a hateful or antagonistic one though).
There's a good scene in the first novel with Ambassador Goyle (predecessor to Udina), where she's about to present herself to the Council for some problem the Alliance has caused. And as she's approaching the Council Chambers, she's going through all of her fears and notions about how best to appease them. But once she gets there, and sees them speaking down to her, she realizes how much they just view humanity and the Alliance as children. And how much humanity needs to apologize for simply being itself. In that moment, she forgets her fears, and cuts into them. She's sick for apologizing for just being human. She reclaims her self-respect.
This is kind of the spirit of ME1 Renegade's politics. And by extension, most in the Alliance. To not apologize for being human (ME2 I think is more about whether you'll distance yourself from extremist humans like Cerberus). Some Paragon lines in ME1 are about how we're too independent for our own good.. that we need to ingratiate ourselves with the "galactic community". Or even care about some ideal of the "galactic community" to begin with. Kaidan is like this. Liara tries to guilt you into thinking like this. Ash is trying keep you from thinking like this.
Err... Now I forget where I was going with this. Basically though, just the fact that the Alliance is human is a night and day difference to me, compared to the Council. Even if they are incompetent.
Competition and giving as good as you get if you're being treated second-rate is one thing. Disapproving of one group over another just because they're non-human (all other things being equal) is something else entirely. And please, all ME races are "human" apart from the weird ones like rachni and geth. I'm betting there are more fundamental differences between my viewpoint and yours then there are between blue tentacle-prothetics space babes and dudes in armored chicken costumes.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 18 février 2014 - 10:04 .
Going by the footage in the archives in the Citadel DLC, it seems they planned to conquer Earth and subjugate humanity as a new client race, like the Volus before us.Invisible Man wrote...
I always thought of the turian military/government as more than a little spectre-ish. during the first contact war, the turains attacked human research ships (humans being a completely unknown race before that point), and bombed civilian cities to dust with asteroids with little to no provocation (examining the relays seems like a poor excuse, though I have my lowly human perspective). the council didn't do much of anything until the humans destroyed the turian's lead force.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
DeinonSlayer wrote...
Going by the footage in the archives in the Citadel DLC, it seems they planned to conquer Earth and subjugate humanity as a new client race, like the Volus before us.Invisible Man wrote...
I always thought of the turian military/government as more than a little spectre-ish. during the first contact war, the turains attacked human research ships (humans being a completely unknown race before that point), and bombed civilian cities to dust with asteroids with little to no provocation (examining the relays seems like a poor excuse, though I have my lowly human perspective). the council didn't do much of anything until the humans destroyed the turian's lead force.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 18 février 2014 - 10:14 .
And what "watering down of identity" do you see in any race? Turians are still turians, asari are still asari, humans are still humans. And like I pointed out in a previous post on this thread, they all have Spectre analogues to carry out their interests. So where does the dislike come into play?StreetMagic wrote...
I just explicitly told you "not necessarily antagonistic". I still believe in working with aliens. Just not watering down your identity in order to work with them.
Cerberus makes the same kind of demands for human advancement. They expect a lot of sacrifice in order for humanity to "reach it's potential". They are no better than the Council.
That's not the Alliance. That's Terminus colonies like Horizon who pretty much say that word for word.I just wish to represent simple humans who want to be left the **** alone.
No, the volus willingly became a client race for protection, during the Krogan RebellionStreetMagic wrote...
Is that what happened to the Volus? I never knew why they were kept down for so long.
You can say the same for T'soni.Han Shot First wrote...
Cerberus I hope is gone for good. They are a writer's pet that has long outlived its welcome. There was too much Cerberus in ME3 as it was. Hopefully they were canonically destroyed in all outcomes of the Reaper War.
No, they used orbital bombardment by cruisers. According to Ashley, they'd destroy a block to eliminate a single fireteam.Steelcan wrote...
The turians didn't bomb Shanxi with asteroids
StreetMagic wrote...
sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
I never saw Liara trying to guilt Shepard into thinking about some "galactic community." I saw Ashley as a relic of a past age. It was time to move on.
That's because you probably pick Paragon options and already act agreeable with her.
"I don't care what the galaxy thinks of me."
"But you should. You are the first human Spectre. You are the best humanity has to offer...." Yada yada yada..
Ashley isn't a relic. It's not like she's harkening back to some bygone era. This is "current issues" in Mass Effect. The Normandy (and crew) is the only ship of it's kind. Nobody has done anything like this yet. Still very much a "pioneer" stage for human politics/identity.
Bob from Accounting wrote...
The Codex word-for-word states that there were only a few hundred human casualties.
Does that sound like cities were 'bombed into dust' to you?
Modifié par Invisible Man, 18 février 2014 - 10:28 .
Guest_StreetMagic_*
CrutchCricket wrote...
That's not the Alliance. That's Terminus colonies like Horizon who pretty much say that word for word.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 18 février 2014 - 10:28 .
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Invisible Man wrote...
Bob from Accounting wrote...
The Codex word-for-word states that there were only a few hundred human casualties.
Does that sound like cities were 'bombed into dust' to you?
I was thinking back to ash's convo in me1. turians lobbed asteroids at shanxi destroying entire city blocks to takeout one fire team. though I was exaggerating for effect at the whole bombing to dust bit.
---edit
I'm fairly sure I heard ash say something about dropping asteroids from orbit, though maybe I just interpreted it that way. my mind is still rather shredded.
The Alliance fleet would be a lot larger and stronger if humanity didn't sign that stupid treaty 30 years ago. I would never of agreed to AliensStreetMagic wrote...
CrutchCricket wrote...
That's not the Alliance. That's Terminus colonies like Horizon who pretty much say that word for word.
That would have been the mandate of all colony protection efforts. It's just by the time the game series starts, the Alliance doesn't think they can accomplish this goal without Council help. Anderson expresses this predicament in ME1. In order to get the help one needs, they need to play the game. But to play the game, they need to sell themselves out a bit. To me, that's no good in the longrun.
And there are probably tangible interests that are sold out too. The Alliance Fleet isn't as strong as it could be if the Alliance was autonomous. And like that one admiral says, a lot of cash went to a "co developed" boondoggle like the Normandy. Just to play nice with the Turians.
Anyways, the lack of self-sufficiency here should have never been a problem in the first place.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
themikefest wrote...
The Alliance fleet would be a lot larger and stronger if humanity didn't sign that stupid treaty 30 years ago. I would never of agreed to Aliens
Modifié par Barquiel, 18 février 2014 - 10:56 .
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