118 réponses à ce sujet

[Lianaar]

I see, thanks. Yeah, I think one playthrough at least is in order, just to get the references and things.

You know, that is the very thing, the really wonderful part of DA2 comes out if you do a second playthrough. Because things play out differently.
Not the main points of the story, because the main bad ass will do the same thing, even if you are just a brute or a goody-two-shoes. That part won't change. You will go to the same locations, you'll meet the same people and you'll be presented to same issues that await solving and same challenges. But the journey to the main point will be a vastly different experience. Even after so many playthroughs there is still details I find which I missed.

 

Of course what you enjoy, depends on you. I personally love DA:2 to bits.

[Volourn]

"Alistair and Morrigan to Isabela and Varric."

 

Morrigan and Isabela is a wash basically. Varric is 1 million times better than Alistair who is overrated.

 

 

As for topic, DA1 and DA2 are pretty equal. Always have been. They have their strengths and weaknesses but characters are definitely better in DA2 overall.

[MPSai]

I think many people defending DA2's story seem to misunderstand that the reason why the story didn't work out was due it's lack of structure. The whole "it doesn't need structure because it's more like real life" would make more sense if Bioware had taken an effort to make Hawke more malleable for the player. If this game is based around the life of a character as opposed to the events around them, then the player should have more opportunities to shape that character. However, Hawke is, in fact, more fixed as a character than the Warden.

The story has some admirable elements such as the concept of game not so entrenched in genre standards and some unavoidable player failure. One may love the game for one or more of these elements, but I can't see the overall product as better than its predecessor.

 

But it literally has a three act structure. It tells a complete story beginning, middle and end with a build up and climax. In what way does it lack structure? Honestly Inquisition felt less structured to me. Or at least less paced.

 

The Warden is a tabula rasa, Hawke is a bit more like Shepard. I don't think either approach is inherently superior to the other. You still have quite a bit of control over Hawke's personality, I feel. There's a pretty stark difference between say, a total red Hawke and a purple/green Hawke etc.

 

The Quiz is I guess kinda this weird combination of both. I do appreciate the amount of lore-based roleplaying though. Like acknowledging my Dalish Quiz understands elvish even as I the player had no idea what the **** was just said. 

[Eldrid]

Varric is 1 million times better than Alistair who is overrated.

 

 

 

OH snappp

 

[Catche Jagger]

But it literally has a three act structure. It tells a complete story beginning, middle and end with a build up and climax. In what way does it lack structure? Honestly Inquisition felt less structured to me. Or at least less paced.

The Warden is a tabula rasa, Hawke is a bit more like Shepard. I don't think either approach is inherently superior to the other. You still have quite a bit of control over Hawke's personality, I feel. There's a pretty stark difference between say, a total red Hawke and a purple/green Hawke etc.

The Quiz is I guess kinda this weird combination of both. I do appreciate the amount of lore-based roleplaying though. Like acknowledging my Dalish Quiz understands elvish even as I the player had no idea what the **** was just said.

Do you understand what a three act structure is? I'm not asking this to seem condescending or to demean your point, I would actually like to know. The acts within DA2 do not individually represent the exposition, rising action, and climax of a singular story. One would have more luck analyzing a three act structure within each "act"

The problem is that the three "Acts" of DA2 lack any sort of effective overarching conflict. The story is split up into what basically amounts to three separate stories with many recurring characters. Each of these acts has its own self-contained conflict arc.

This isn't inherently a problem, but these stories (especially the third) can be a bit too condensed and therefore lack the same punch that a more fleshed-out plot would have.

Let's just have an example of DA2's uneven story. We'll go with the third act since it is the most glaringly flawed of the three. As I have said in posts on other threads, there is a massive failure within act three to explain things, especially as the third act should be the most built-up part of the game. Meredith and Orsino are both important players in the events that play out in the act, but they are not introduced well.
I'm not sure if this is the case in all playthroughs, but the first time I encountered Orsino was when I ended up taking his form in the Fade. All I could think was "Who is this guy? Did I miss him before?" You only encounter Meredith and the real Orsino at the very end of the second act, making their presence feel like an afterthought to set up some issues for later.

This is just one example of DA2's disjointed storyline. It is obvious that the whole thing was rushed out before necessary rewrites could be done.

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Next, DAI complaints. Inquisition's story does have many pacing issues (though this is often the case in open-world games). The biggest flaw is that the writers seemed to think that Coryphaeus only had to be intimidating once to be perceived as a big threat for the rest of the game. We needed at least one more major mission in which Coryphaeus managed to succeed in a minor goal of his.

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Lastly on the matter of Green, Purple, and Red Hawke. The issue here is that I'm not shaping my character, I'm just picking one of three personalities.

[Aren]

feel the same, i belive that Hawke is part of the world and part of the lore while the warden and the inquisitor are blank state.

[Natureguy85]

DA2 is nowhere near as good as Origins. The plot had some things going for it but it threw them all away in the end. Hawke is a reactive character, not a proactive one. Things happen TO Hawke, which is not a great way to do a video game. The time skips were counterproductive to the supposed "rise to power" storyline. Skipping the first year, where Hawke establishes him/herself was a terrible mistake. Instead they decided it was important for you to make money. You don't really get introduced to the Templar v Mage conflict until Act 2, so it's hard to call that the main theme of the game. The Arishok was great, as were Meredith and Orsino, until they ruined the latter two by making them both go crazy. There was no investigation into the red lyrium idol, the most interesting thing in the game. It could have worked as a subtle influence driving people's characteristics to the extreme, such as Bartrand's greed or Meredith's paranoia, but both of those characters went straight up crazy, which ruined Meredith.

 

Origins plot wasn't anything ground breaking but it was a classic Adventure plot and worked perfectly for what it wanted to do. The Warden becoming a Warden is reactive, but after Ostagar you take the helm and drive the plot forward.

 

The characters in Origins are far superior. Varric is the only DA2 character who isn't completely flat and boring. He is, however, no match for Morrigan. That said, despite the characters being individually dull in DA2, their interaction with each other is somehow awesome.

 

Combat is going to be personal preference, but I lean toward Origins. I like that they tried to speed up combat a bit and make it flashier, but they went too far and made it very cartoony, with characters flying around the battlefield. Origins combat had more grit and weight, even if it was a bit slow.

 

Legacy and Mark of the Assassin were the best parts of DA2.

[Bad King]

Combat is going to be personal preference, but I lean toward Origins. I like that they tried to speed up combat a bit and make it flashier, but they went too far and made it very cartoony, with characters flying around the battlefield. Origins combat had more grit and weight, even if it was a bit slow.

 

Combat in DA2 was also marred somewhat by how unbalanced the enemies were. You could fight through hordes of warriors with ease but then have your entire party wiped by one or two OP assassin enemies (that bizarrely had more health than regular warrior foes while also being capable of crippling damage and spammable invisibility). 

[Natureguy85]

Combat in DA2 was also marred somewhat by how unbalanced the enemies were. You could fight through hordes of warriors with ease but then have your entire party wiped by one or two OP assassin enemies (that bizarrely had more health than regular warrior foes while also being capable of crippling damage and spammable invisibility). 

 

Very true. What I liked least was the enemies appearing out of nowhere. I guess they were supposed to be jumping out of the windows of buildings or something like that, but it looked stupid. I played as a Warrior and noticed about halfway through that every single enemy was resisting my attacks, even when I had blades with elemental damage. This was annoying.

[Bakgrind]

Aside from the faster combat I found my time playing DA2 to be less enjoyable than my 1400 hrs I spent in DAO so far.  For me it's not just the reusable areas that bother me it was more the blandness of the scenery around me. Particularly in the city with its dull brown and red tint.By the time I get to ACT III my eyes are usually bleeding from the lifelessness of the earth tones. I literally can't wait for it to be over with by that point.

 

While the story of DA 2 is ok it just not as compelling for me as DAO. It doesn't just reach out and pull me in. Probably partly because I feel that the Warden was me and Hawke was someone elses charactor. I mean it's kinda bad when you  start to look past the protagonist and focus more onto his companions. Varric,Fenris,Bethany and Avaline are some pretty interesting people. Not that Merrill or Isabela were not really good companions I just didn't like they way they were written in DA2.

 

And Hawke is, well he is one of those tragic kind of heroes whereby everything he does is an exercise in futility and doesn't have any long lasting effect. Moves his family to Kirkwall a sibling dies along the way. Looses another when he goes on the Deep roads expedition. Forgets to tell his mother about about being gifted with white flowers and we all know what happens to his mother next. In his pursuit from rags to riches in Kirkwall the walls literally falls around him.  I'm sure that I am to hard on Hawke and should probably like him more and I would had they let him win bigger a little bit more.
 

[Natureguy85]

Aside from the faster combat I found my time playing DA2 to be less enjoyable than my 1400 hrs I spent in DAO so far.  For me it's not just the reusable areas that bother me it was more the blandness of the scenery around me. Particularly in the city with its dull brown and red tint.By the time I get to ACT III my eyes are usually bleeding from the lifelessness of the earth tones. I literally can't wait for it to be over with by that point.

 

While the story of DA 2 is ok it just not as compelling for me as DAO. It doesn't just reach out and pull me in. Probably partly because I feel that the Warden was me and Hawke was someone elses charactor. I mean it's kinda bad when you  start to look past the protagonist and focus more onto his companions. Varric,Fenris,Bethany and Avaline are some pretty interesting people. Not that Merrill or Isabela were not really good companions I just didn't like they way they were written in DA2.

 

And Hawke is, well he is one of those tragic kind of heroes whereby everything he does is an exercise in futility and doesn't have any long lasting effect. Moves his family to Kirkwall a sibling dies along the way. Looses another when he goes on the Deep roads expedition. Forgets to tell his mother about about being gifted with white flowers and we all know what happens to his mother next. In his pursuit from rags to riches in Kirkwall the walls literally falls around him.  I'm sure that I am to hard on Hawke and should probably like him more and I would had they let him win bigger a little bit more.
 

 

No, what you feel makes sense. It's a problem with the difference in the kinds of stories and how they were told. Origins was a classic adventure story. The six Origins are the Call to Adventure, given by Duncan, who is "the Obi-Wan". The Warden takes up the mantle of hero to defeat a great enemy using powers he has just been given. It's not the most original story, but like I said, it's a classic and it works. As you said, the Warden is a blank slate for us to shape.

 

DA2 tries to tell the story about a guy trying to live his life, but we don't really get to see it. First, the time skips really hurt this type of story because Hawke has ten years of activities and relationships of which we only see a few brief windows. We don't know about all the things the characters have gone through together. We don't see Hawke gaining the reputation we are told he has when Varric approaches him in Act 1. We don't know why the Viscount reaches out to Hawke in Act 2. These things happen to Hawke merely because he is the PC and the plot needs to move. By contrast, for most, if not all the Origins, we know why Duncan is interested in the PCs.

 

Also, while the story seems to be about Hawke making a better life for his family, he never really settles into a normal life. Being a busy-body getting into everything made sense in Act One, but not after that. Hawke never tries to live a normal life, even  though he owns part of a business. Sure he clears monsters, but he doesn't work on running it. I guess that's his partner's job though.

[k1rage]

DA2 would have been a great game but the reused areas started driving me nuts.

 

Funny thing is I avoided it when it was released because of all the negativity surrounding it, but I picked it up because I couldent bring myself to play DA:I without first experiencing DA2 and despite the reused areas and some gaps in the plot I really enjoyed the hell out of it.

[Yulia]

having a quiet character doesn't bother me as it would to others, yes it makes the experience better if they talk (if voice acted right anyways) but that won't be the thing that determines whether I like a game better than the other. I think Origins is better in gameplay and story. I agree the characters were more interesting in DAII (Isabella!) than Origins, but I still do like the characters in Origins. I think DAII has better and smoother mechanics than Origins but that's it other than character interactions.

[Yulia]

having a quiet character doesn't bother me as it would to others, yes it makes the experience better if they talk (if voice acted right anyways) but that won't be the thing that determines whether I like a game better than the other. I think Origins is better in gameplay and story. I agree the characters were more interesting in DAII (Isabella!) than Origins, but I still do like the characters in Origins. I think DAII has better and smoother mechanics than Origins but that's it other than character interactions.

[Natureguy85]

having a quiet character doesn't bother me as it would to others, yes it makes the experience better if they talk (if voice acted right anyways) but that won't be the thing that determines whether I like a game better than the other. I think Origins is better in gameplay and story. I agree the characters were more interesting in DAII (Isabella!) than Origins, but I still do like the characters in Origins. I think DAII has better and smoother mechanics than Origins but that's it other than character interactions.

 

Really? What is so great about Isabella? The only thing I like about her is that she is shaped slightly by Hawke in whether or not she comes back with the book. The only character I really liked on their own was Varric, though Merril and Aveline aren't terrible. I found Anders, Sebastian, Isabella, and Fenris to be one dimensional otherwise. That said, while the characters were boring on their own, I thought the party banter was fantastic.

 

I don't see how any of them can stand up to Morrigan, Alistair, and Shale though.

[Natureguy85]

So no one has anything to say about DanaDuchy who has uncovered cut content for this game that should have remained in the game and not what we have so far?

Geez, fishing for attention are we? I haven't watched the video but I've heard about some things. I may watch some later.

[Yulia]

well Natureguy85, I like Isabella for many reasons. She's feisty, has humor, her story is interesting to me (how many pirates would you see that were women? even in real life In the past there were very few well known pirates who was a woman), and the party banter with her, OMG! the party banter! plus she duel wields! very few rogues duel wield (excluding the main character).

[Natureguy85]

well Natureguy85, I like Isabella for many reasons. She's feisty, has humor, her story is interesting to me (how many pirates would you see that were women? even in real life In the past there were very few well known pirates who was a woman), and the party banter with her, OMG! the party banter! plus she duel wields! very few rogues duel wield (excluding the main character).

 

I agree on the party banter, as that was what was great about all the characters. I don't care that she's a pirate because we don't see it. She's stuck in Kirkwall and we run into a few people from her past. Really, she's thief and could be any kind of thief. That's where the drama in her arc comes from and is what connects her to the main plot. If we ever saw her with a ship and crew, that could be cool. Maybe she'd be the one to get Hawke to some important place for a quest.

 

As far as the duel wielding goes, you have a stabby rogue and a shooty rogue, just like in Origins.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I've always liked DA2 and never agreed with the many complaints some fans had about it. As much as I also like Inquisition I think the problems I have with it are because of an overreaction to the "problems" with DA2. Not enough maps? There you go, wander around this massive map and collect a bunch of mystical rocks. Colour me crazy but I preferred recycled maps with more interesting stories going on.

 

I guess the thing I liked the most about DA2 though was that Hawke's team felt more like real friends. Maybe because it was set over a longer period of time? Or maybe because there wasn't such a big overarching story so it seemed more like everyone was with Hawke because they were friends with her not because of a duty to save the world.

[Natureguy85]

I've always liked DA2 and never agreed with the many complaints some fans had about it. As much as I also like Inquisition I think the problems I have with it are because of an overreaction to the "problems" with DA2. Not enough maps? There you go, wander around this massive map and collect a bunch of mystical rocks. Colour me crazy but I preferred recycled maps with more interesting stories going on.

 

I guess the thing I liked the most about DA2 though was that Hawke's team felt more like real friends. Maybe because it was set over a longer period of time? Or maybe because there wasn't such a big overarching story so it seemed more like everyone was with Hawke because they were friends with her not because of a duty to save the world.

 

Actually I found the longer time to be a problem because we didn't get to see much of it. You're right that the characters do seem closer, but we the audience are excluded by the time skips.

[alchemist42]

Like a lot of others it was on my 2nd playthrough of DA2 that I started to love it,  I upped the difficulty to nightmare, had to learn all about CCC , advanced tactics and had a real blast.  Loved the insane combat, loved the characters especially fem Hawke.

 

Yes, DAO was a masterpiece for its time, but I find the pace way too slow to go back to it.  I’ve now played DA2 twice as many times and am still playing, so on that reckoning IMO its a better game.  (If only it had the huge world of DAI to explore!!!   If only, if only......)