70 réponses à ce sujet

[CosmicGnosis]

*This is an unusual post. It's just about the thoughts that I'm currently contemplating.*

From the moment I met Sovereign in ME1, I wanted to liberate the galaxy from the tyranny of those who wished to dominate it. I believe that every sapient being has the right to live the life that it chooses, as long as it doesn't harm another sapient being. I don't believe that one person has any authority to decide the fate of countless others. Really, I just want everyone to be happy.

But Shepard is forced to make a decision that will not only influence every being within a diameter of 100,000 light-years, but also every being that will ever live in the galaxy. It is a decision that is just as significant as the creation of the harvest cycle a billion years ago. As long as galactic history is remembered, everyone will know the name of Shepard. The Crucible event will be known for all time. 

So what did my Shepard, or I, fight for? I fought to create an abundant and meaningful life for every inhabitant of this galaxy. My goal is a reference to a quote from Carl Sagan. The exact quote is this:

"Those worlds in space are as countless as all the grains of sand on all the beaches of the Earth. Each of those worlds is as real as ours. In every one of them, there's a succession of incidents, events, occurences which influence its future. Countless worlds, numberless moments, an immensity of space and time. And our small planet, at this moment, here we face a critical branch-point in history. What we do with our world, right now, will propagate down through the centuries and powerfully affect the destiny of our descendants. It is well within our power to destroy our civilization, and perhaps our species as well. If we capitulate to superstition, or greed, or stupidity, we can plunge our world into a darkness deeper than the time between the collapse of Classical civilization and the Italian Renaissance. But we are also capable of using our compassion and our intelligence, our technology and our wealth to make an abundant and meaningful life for every inhabitant of this planet, to enhance enormously our understanding of the Universe, and to carry us to the stars."

I just finished another playthrough of the trilogy. This time, I tried to make decisions that I actually believed in, decisions that I would make in real life. And this time, I chose to destroy the Reapers. It was interesting. It felt right, except for the synthetic sacrifice. It also left the galaxy in a very vulnerable state. And if the Catalyst's predictions are correct, then I have just doomed organic life to destruction. I fought to prevent outcomes like this.

But what choice did I have? I fought Control and Synthesis as well. As the Reaper overlord, I would have the power to dominate the galaxy. Even if I think I am being reasonable, others much weaker than me might not, and unfortunate misunderstandings may arise. And Synthesis... oh goodness. Is this an example of great evil leading to great good? The ultimate example of the ends justifying the means? If it does create so much good, is it unethical to not choose it? But who am I to choose Synthesis? No one ever asked for it. No one fought for it. It is safe to assume that most people were fighting to save the galaxy, not change it. But maybe they need this change? I don't know.

At what point do I become the Reapers? At what point do I become the very thing I was fighting against? At what point do I become the tyrant? How do I accomplish my mission to make life worth living for everyone?

And now I feel like quoting Charlie Chaplin's "The Great Dictator":

"You, the people have the power - the power to create machines! The power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure... Let us fight to free the world, to do away with national barriers, to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance! Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men's happiness!"

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 17 février 2014 - 08:43 .

[Rusty Sandusky]

You know, I was thinking about the same thing except with psychology homework not Reapers.

[Ieldra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
 And Synthesis... oh goodness. Is this an example of great evil leading to great good? The ultimate example of the ends justifying the means? If it does create so much good, is it unethical to not choose it? But who am I to choose Synthesis? No one ever asked for it. No one fought for it. It is safe to assume that most people were fighting to save the galaxy, not change it. But maybe they need this change? I don't know.

Consider this: freedom lies in the ability to choose your own actions, unconstrained by unwanted limitations, and some of those limitations have always been those of our natural bodies and minds. Thus, we create technology to overcome these limitations, which in Synthesis we take into ourselves to become less constrained. More than in any other outcome, the potential of intelligent life in a post-Synthesis future will only be limited by their own desires, rather than their nature (Destroy) or an ultimate authority (Control).

[katamuro]

Yeah, in Control you become what you fought, because who knows maybe 1000 or 10000 years into the future someone might try to create AI and it would go wild, maybe a million years later the Shepard-Catalyst-Reaper will start the cycle again after all those years of fighting one or the other AI created by the organics.

Synthesis is basically forcing every single current and future being in the galaxy to becoming something that resembles a reaper on the basic level. Who can really tell if thousands or tens of thousands of years from then some hybrid of every known species in the galaxy would want to create purely organic life, and creation of purely synthetic life is still a possibility. Nothing prevents from creating a purely synthetic Super-Reaper so that it "harvest" the abomination that is the hybrid life to allow for the cycle of organic life.

Destroy seems to be the only option that doesnt go against the principles that shepard and the allies fought for. Sure it kills get hand EDI, and its a stupid costly thing but at least it gives the chance for the life to try to become something new without control or oversight of the reapers be it under shepards control or freed reapers.

[shodiswe]

katamuro wrote...

Yeah, in Control you become what you fought, because who knows maybe 1000 or 10000 years into the future someone might try to create AI and it would go wild, maybe a million years later the Shepard-Catalyst-Reaper will start the cycle again after all those years of fighting one or the other AI created by the organics.

Synthesis is basically forcing every single current and future being in the galaxy to becoming something that resembles a reaper on the basic level. Who can really tell if thousands or tens of thousands of years from then some hybrid of every known species in the galaxy would want to create purely organic life, and creation of purely synthetic life is still a possibility. Nothing prevents from creating a purely synthetic Super-Reaper so that it "harvest" the abomination that is the hybrid life to allow for the cycle of organic life.

Destroy seems to be the only option that doesnt go against the principles that shepard and the allies fought for. Sure it kills get hand EDI, and its a stupid costly thing but at least it gives the chance for the life to try to become something new without control or oversight of the reapers be it under shepards control or freed reapers.

The Catalyst didn't run the cyckles or look for a solution to that problem because it wanted to, it did because it was programmed to. It was forced to take action. Shepard isn't forced by anything. Unless people headcannon otherwise.
The Catalyst had very little choice in the matter. Shepard has a choice.
Can people go insane? Yes, they don't have to be AI's for that! Do they have to? Certainly not.

Chances are that a million years from now Shepards power will be insignificant compared to that of the rest of the galaxy.

[RangerSG]

The problem with taking the Catalyst at its word is it doesn't understand organic life. It can't. It understands that organic life comes into conflict with itself and its creations. But what proof does it ever offer that Control or Synthesis will 'solve' the problem. We're supposed to take its word? And as for the Epilogue, let's be clear, that's the hopeful vision of someone in the immediate aftermath, thinking about all the good that could come from the decision. It's not the 'this is what happened.' Because they don't have foresight.

Does the principle of self-interest get rewritten in either Control or Synthesis? You could argue that in Control Shepard functions like the Gray Council in Babylon 5. But even then, it's not a permanent solution. There will be problems the Shepard AI didn't prepare for. It can only respond in line with its programming.

Synthesis? I can imagine a future where just as many beings are horrified at what was done as are made as giddy as EDI. Millions of organic beings who want nothing to do with the synthetic parts grafted into them. Geth who lament the lack of certitude of the Consensus. Peace? I could see it as the grounds for war just as easily.

Self-interest doesn't disappear just because we reach a certain level of technology. So what end, IMHO, does the least evil? The one that isn't dependent on taking Starbrat at its word, or thinking its a prophet for the future.

[katamuro]

RangerSG wrote...

The problem with taking the Catalyst at its word is it doesn't understand organic life. It can't. It understands that organic life comes into conflict with itself and its creations. But what proof does it ever offer that Control or Synthesis will 'solve' the problem. We're supposed to take its word? And as for the Epilogue, let's be clear, that's the hopeful vision of someone in the immediate aftermath, thinking about all the good that could come from the decision. It's not the 'this is what happened.' Because they don't have foresight.

Does the principle of self-interest get rewritten in either Control or Synthesis? You could argue that in Control Shepard functions like the Gray Council in Babylon 5. But even then, it's not a permanent solution. There will be problems the Shepard AI didn't prepare for. It can only respond in line with its programming.

Synthesis? I can imagine a future where just as many beings are horrified at what was done as are made as giddy as EDI. Millions of organic beings who want nothing to do with the synthetic parts grafted into them. Geth who lament the lack of certitude of the Consensus. Peace? I could see it as the grounds for war just as easily.

Self-interest doesn't disappear just because we reach a certain level of technology. So what end, IMHO, does the least evil? The one that isn't dependent on taking Starbrat at its word, or thinking its a prophet for the future.

Exactly. And like Shadows and vorlons in B5 who try to control the galaxy and "lead" the "lesser" species by waging war every so often the catalyst suffers from the same problem of persective, created millions of years ago when the problem was posed to it by a Leviathans who were basically in control of the galaxy as technobiotic-Gods. instead it slaughtered everyone who was advanced enough to have the ability to make a mistake like the Leviathans did. Catalyst and Reapers basically prove ther logic by existing and continuing with their cycle. Catalyst cant give options for a different future because it itself has failed to produce such and even with new variables it can only be "locked in" to its programming of "preservation". Their cycle is basically like ripping out wheat and barely just so that the weeds and other less fruitful plants can have a chance of evolving into wheat and barley. and just because it "could" does not mean it will. 

Hence the logic is and the solutions offered are nothing but the window dressing.

[Ruadh]

I fight for the honour of space hamster.

Personally though, I can't stand control and synthesis. Picking either choice feels like a justification of the catalysts circular logic induced genocide.

"I send machines to kill you, otherwise machines will kill you."

And . . .

"Synthesis is inevitable. That's why I destroy all intelligent life every 50 thousand years and stop any race ever reaching synthesis themselves. Pick synthesis."

With a final . . .

"You now have the power to destroy us. But don't. That would be silly. Think of the children. Chaos and evolution and inevitable and stuff."

[Jadebaby]

2 years on and still threads like this exist.

I really have to commend BioWare for their efforts on the ending of Mass Effect 3. In this sense if no other, the nailed it! 2 whole years and people are still having deep discussions on the merits and values of life, freedom and unity.

Congratulations.

[katamuro]

Jadebaby wrote...

2 years on and still threads like this exist.

I really have to commend BioWare for their efforts on the ending of Mass Effect 3. In this sense if no other, the nailed it! 2 whole years and people are still having deep discussions on the merits and values of life, freedom and unity.

Congratulations.

Yeah I guess they did succeed in that. They actually did it. Unfortunately with all that there was a lot of rage, anger and bad press for all involved. 

[Ranger1337]

Because most people are stuck in the conviction that the Reapers are wrong. The very reason we oppose the Reapers is because we want to live. It is because as organics, we have a self-preservation instinct. The Catalyst is not wrong in its conclusion. The ones to really blame are the Leviathans because they programmed the AI to search for the solution to preserve life and end conflict between synthetics and organics.

The conclusion it came up with is simple and absolute:
"Advanced organics must be pushed aside because they carry a risk of creating synthetics that may turn on ALL organics, even the younger species and potentially all life, present and future".

You cannot say the Catalyst is wrong. It's like saying your calculator is wrong because it gave you a figure of the amount of money left in your bank account and it hurts you to know you have 10 dollars left in your savings. Like it said, it is only carrying out it's core programming just as fire is meant to burn. Even the Leviathans acknowledged that the Catalyst is merely doing what it was programmed to do.

Yes, it is perfectly understandable to Destroy the Reapers because we as organics should be able to make our own decisions about our future and the players have every right to do so. Even the Catalyst itself was open to the decision to close the book on the Reapers forever, because Shepard's armada and him standing in the Citadel control room has made the AI reassess itself, realizing that this occurrence means that there was a chance of organics eventually overcoming the Reapers themselves, making its solution invalid.

You have to understand the extreme dilemma that is placed upon the Catalyst as an AI. It is programmed to preserve life at all costs but it realizes that even the smallest chance of any future organics, it could be thousands or millions of years after Mass Effect's timeline, creating even a single synthetic race that eventually self-evolved and turned on its creators and wiping out ALL life, which is WAY worse than the Reapers' agenda is.

So in layman's terms, yes, as Organics, we have the right to live on our own terms and we are right for doing so. But we cannot discount the reality that the Catalyst's realization can happen at any time. In a way, it is selfish. Because we want to live, because of our nature to want to survive, we are carrying the risk of the death of our descendants. Because when the time comes, when the humans, turians, asari, vorcha, quarians and whatnot are finally gone, we cannot predict what the future advanced civilizations that come after us will do. Maybe it's not our problem. It's they're fault, they pay for it. Doesn't matter, we're already extinct or have migrated to the Andromeda.

In essence, Destroy the Reapers because I can't be f***ed about what the future races eventually do to themselves and I just wanna live to see me having a Quarian-Human baby.

[Iakus]

Ranger1337 wrote...

So in layman's terms, yes, as Organics, we have the right to live on our own terms and we are right for doing so. But we cannot discount the reality that the Catalyst's realization can happen at any time. In a way, it is selfish. Because we want to live, because of our nature to want to survive, we are carrying the risk of the death of our descendants. Because when the time comes, when the humans, turians, asari, vorcha, quarians and whatnot are finally gone, we cannot predict what the future advanced civilizations that come after us will do. Maybe it's not our problem. It's they're fault, they pay for it. Doesn't matter, we're already extinct or have migrated to the Andromeda.

Can and will.

In the galaxy's recorded history, organics have been a far greater threat to organic life than synthetics.  There is no evidence that the Morning War was somehow a greater threat than the Krogan Rebellions.

The Catalyst's assertions are nothing more than a self-fufilling prophecy.  The galaxy can solve its own problems without Synthetic overlords, forced uplifting, or the extermination of all synthetics.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 (me:) I fought to make the galaxy a better place when I left it.

[Jadebaby]

katamuro wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

2 years on and still threads like this exist.

I really have to commend BioWare for their efforts on the ending of Mass Effect 3. In this sense if no other, the nailed it! 2 whole years and people are still having deep discussions on the merits and values of life, freedom and unity.

Congratulations.

Yeah I guess they did succeed in that. They actually did it. Unfortunately with all that there was a lot of rage, anger and bad press for all involved. 

All they had to do was destroy a game... Why doesn't every dev studio start doing this?

[Ranger1337]

iakus wrote...

Can and will.

In the galaxy's recorded history, organics have been a far greater threat to organic life than synthetics.  There is no evidence that the Morning War was somehow a greater threat than the Krogan Rebellions.

The Catalyst's assertions are nothing more than a self-fufilling prophecy.  The galaxy can solve its own problems without Synthetic overlords, forced uplifting, or the extermination of all synthetics.

Thing is, The Morning War does not fit into the kind of conflict the Catalyst is trying to prevent. The Geth did not come to the conclusion that organics have no purpose and hence should be wiped out completely. They merely acted in self-defense and once the Quarians were no longer a threat, they did not pursue them past their home system. However, the possibility of them eventually coming to that conclusion remains. It may take centuries but eventually they may start wiping out organic life due to the assumption that they are all hostile to synthetics or that they perceive themselves to be enslaved by organic life due to their artificial nature. Convincing them is not a 100% guarantee. As an intelligence, they can decide whether the organics statement is true or they may rely on mathematics and statistics to come up with a different and frankly, more fatal conclusion. 

And note that the Catalyst technically does not commit genocide, because the consciousness of the harvested are uploaded into the Reaper warship's gestalt consciousness. In essence, it is similar to The Matrix. The harvested could be living in a virtual reality within The Reaper while they're combined neural activity powers the Reaper's artificial intelligence. This may contribute to The Catalyst's main goal, which is to find the ultimate solution to end conflict between synthetics and organics - the Reaper cycle was never meant to be permanent. It was a temporary makeshift solution while the AI looks for that solution : Synthesis. When the Crucible docked with the Citadel, the Catalyst realized that the galaxy is now ready for synthesis and hence, declared it the better solution over the Reaper cycle. EDI's voiceover after the shockwave incident mentions that they are now connected to all the civilzations that came before them - including The Protheans and the Innusanon. This implies that synthesis can allow the revival of all the harvested populations in previous cycles.

[congokong]

If you're role-playing then destroying the reapers would be the only reasonable thing to do. Would you really jump into a laser or merge with blue energy not knowing what it really does? The catalyst created the reapers. The reapers will do anything to get their way. No honor at all. The catalyst is the last one you should trust.

Destroy was the only sensible thing to do even if you're possibly damning organic life in the future. Shooting the machinery isn't likely going to improve the catalyst's health at least; even if it didn't do what the catalyst claimed by destroying all synthetics.

[SwobyJ]

"And note that the Catalyst technically does not commit genocide, because the consciousness of the harvested are uploaded into the Reaper warship's gestalt consciousness. In essence, it is similar to The Matrix. The harvested could be living in a virtual reality within The Reaper while they're combined neural activity powers the Reaper's artificial intelligence. This may contribute to The Catalyst's main goal, which is to find the ultimate solution to end conflict between synthetics and organics - the Reaper cycle was never meant to be permanent. It was a temporary makeshift solution while the AI looks for that solution : Synthesis. When the Crucible docked with the Citadel, the Catalyst realized that the galaxy is now ready for synthesis and hence, declared it the better solution over the Reaper cycle. EDI's voiceover after the shockwave incident mentions that they are now connected to all the civilzations that came before them - including The Protheans and the Innusanon. This implies that synthesis can allow the revival of all the harvested populations in previous cycles."

^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Iakus]

Ranger1337 wrote...

Thing is, The Morning War does not fit into the kind of conflict the Catalyst is trying to prevent. The Geth did not come to the conclusion that organics have no purpose and hence should be wiped out completely. They merely acted in self-defense and once the Quarians were no longer a threat, they did not pursue them past their home system. However, the possibility of them eventually coming to that conclusion remains. It may take centuries but eventually they may start wiping out organic life due to the assumption that they are all hostile to synthetics or that they perceive themselves to be enslaved by organic life due to their artificial nature. Convincing them is not a 100% guarantee. As an intelligence, they can decide whether the organics statement is true or they may rely on mathematics and statistics to come up with a different and frankly, more fatal conclusion. 

Yep.  the Morning War doesn't fit.  As far as we know, there is no conflict that does.

But then there's the Krogan Rebellions, where the krogan went to war against the entire galaxy and nearly won.  They were even dropping asteroids on garden worlds, threatening wholesale genocide on anyone who stood in their way.

Maybe the salarians should have forcibly introduced krogan DNA to the rest of the galaxy instread of deploying the genophage

And note that the Catalyst technically does not commit genocide, because the consciousness of the harvested are uploaded into the Reaper warship's gestalt consciousness. In essence, it is similar to The Matrix. The harvested could be living in a virtual reality within The Reaper while they're combined neural activity powers the Reaper's artificial intelligence. This may contribute to The Catalyst's main goal, which is to find the ultimate solution to end conflict between synthetics and organics - the Reaper cycle was never meant to be permanent. It was a temporary makeshift solution while the AI looks for that solution : Synthesis. When the Crucible docked with the Citadel, the Catalyst realized that the galaxy is now ready for synthesis and hence, declared it the better solution over the Reaper cycle. EDI's voiceover after the shockwave incident mentions that they are now connected to all the civilzations that came before them - including The Protheans and the Innusanon. This implies that synthesis can allow the revival of all the harvested populations in previous cycles.

"You, whoever you were, before the Reapers decided to "preserve" you, they're dead.  They died thousands of years ago.  And now they can rest in peace"

I do not believe the uploaded consciousness is anywhere near the same thing as teh original.  It's nothing more than a sophisticated copy.  The Shepalyst is no more Shepard than the Shepard VI is.  It's only a more sophisticated copy.

And I think you're misinterpreting EDI's comment.  The Reapers shared the knowledge of the past races.  The  
civilizations are still dead.  Translating the Rosetta Stone does not bring back ancient Egyptian civilization

As for Synthesis:  Any solution that forces everyone to become something other than what they are is no solution.  It's implications are in fact  highly unpleasant

Edit:  Just realized I never really answered the title question:

I fought to break teh Reapers' cycle of destruction.  I fought for the free will of the galaxy.  I fought for the galaxy to develop along their own paths, rather than paths dictated by the Reapers.  I fought so the galaxy's civilizations could grow and flourish or wither and die based on their own choices and mistakes. 

I fought so the people (all the people, organic and synthetic both) could live in a galaxy of their own making.  Not one that was built for them.  Too bad Bioware decided that wasn't a suitable conclusion.

Modifié par iakus, 17 février 2014 - 04:56 .

[Iakus]

Jadebaby wrote...

2 years on and still threads like this exist.

I really have to commend BioWare for their efforts on the ending of Mass Effect 3. In this sense if no other, the nailed it! 2 whole years and people are still having deep discussions on the merits and values of life, freedom and unity.

Congratulations.

they wanted an ending that would be talked about

Wish granted.  Hope they're happy with the results 

[AlanC9]

congokong wrote...

If you're role-playing then destroying the reapers would be the only reasonable thing to do. Would you really jump into a laser or merge with blue energy not knowing what it really does? The catalyst created the reapers. The reapers will do anything to get their way. No honor at all. The catalyst is the last one you should trust.

Doesn't that "logic" lead to Refuse rather than Destroy? If the Catalyst's going to lie about anything, lying about shooting the tube would be at the top of the list.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 février 2014 - 04:46 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

congokong wrote...

If you're role-playing then destroying the reapers would be the only reasonable thing to do. Would you really jump into a laser or merge with blue energy not knowing what it really does? The catalyst created the reapers. The reapers will do anything to get their way. No honor at all. The catalyst is the last one you should trust.

Doesn't that "logic" lead to Refuse rather than Destroy? If the Catalyst's going to lie about anything, lying about shooting the tube would be at the top of the list.

Obviously, Shepard Just Knows that the all-powerful, mind-controlling immortal AI (that's totally not operating on flawed logic, nope!) is being totally straight with him

[katamuro]

Yeah the reapers harvest the "essence" of the species, like the thing that Shepard and Saren got from the Thorian in ME1. They received you could say what is a certain species without preserving any of the individuals in the species. If they cared for preservation of individual thought patterns even in the crudest form they would not indoctrinate them or turn them into the walking abominations we fought. We saw how collectors "converted" their victims into the reaper, they simply disassembled them into organic slush that was fed into the reaper without any concern for what and who they are. Even if they tried to preserve the mind of such a person that kind of trauma would lead them to be insane.
Reapers harvest the "essence" preserving the data of species, like a DNA record of the species. And I must say good thing too otherwise imagine, trillions of sentient minds forever trapped in a techno-organic nightmare that is the Reaper, never able to be anything else, witnessing the deaths of others, the atrocities committed, the horrors inflicted, always under control of the AI that keeps repeating the same thing every 50k years.

So yeah its a good thing that all the Reapers do is harvest the DNA record massacring every species they harvest and condemning them to total oblivion.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

AlanC9 wrote...

congokong wrote...

If you're role-playing then destroying the reapers would be the only reasonable thing to do. Would you really jump into a laser or merge with blue energy not knowing what it really does? The catalyst created the reapers. The reapers will do anything to get their way. No honor at all. The catalyst is the last one you should trust.

Doesn't that "logic" lead to Refuse rather than Destroy? If the Catalyst's going to lie about anything, lying about shooting the tube would be at the top of the list.

I've never heard a good answer to this. All I get is the argument that we know the Crucible is supposed to destroy the Reapers, so it has to be there, but from where do they get the idea that this outcome is achieved by shooting some random tube? There's no rhyme or reason behind it, as opposed to grabbing the "Control" rods being its means of activation. Perhaps that's the only thing that actually works, and the Crucible needs to read Shepard's brain to determine what it needs to do between Destroy, Control, and Sync, whereas shooting the tube just sabotages the whole device.

At some point, you just step back and say "it works because everything works in a game," IMO.

[AlanC9]

I'm kind of partial to the theory that the whole interface is non-physical. Direct mind contact was not beyond Prothean tech, after all. So shooting something activates Destroy because it symbolized destruction, etc. I doubt it's the design intent, though.