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[Bfler]

During the game the Reapers are only mindless drones and their king, the child, is (if you believe the people here) only a machine without individual decisions. In contrast the Geth after Rannoch are suddenly "sentient" individuals.

Why are the Geth with their Reaper code addition suddenly human like individuals, but not the real Reapers, which are the origin of the uploaded code?

Modifié par Bfler, 19 février 2014 - 04:53 .

[Farangbaa]

Reapers aren't mindless drones. Where did you get that from?

[Bob from Accounting]

I see no reason to believe the Reapers are mindless drones. Can the Catalyst not 'control' them in the same way Shepard 'controls' the crew?

[Bfler]

They act like the Geth before Rannoch. People here said numerous times, that the child (the Reaper king) is a programmed machine without own will, what means, that it doesn't use the code, which is uploaded to the Geth.

Modifié par Bfler, 19 février 2014 - 04:57 .

[Farangbaa]

Bfler wrote...

They act like the Geth before Rannoch.

What?

[AlanC9]

Bfler wrote...

Why are the Geth with their Reaper code addition suddenly human like individuals, but not the real Reapers, which are the origin of the uploaded code?

Nobody said the Reapers were running that code themselves.

[CronoDragoon]

Bfler wrote...

They act like the Geth before Rannoch. People here said numerous times, that the child (the Reaper king) is a programmed machine without own will, what means, that it doesn't use the code, which is uploaded to the Geth.

Both Harbinger and Sovereign refer to themselves as "I" so not exactly. But the Reapers are being controlled by the Catalyst, so in that sense no they don't have their own will. They do in a Synthesis future, though.

But yeah, I'd bet the Catalyst doesn't use the code he implemented into the geth.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think the exact nature of what the Reapers are is so shrouded in mystical jibber jabber that there isn't a coherent view of what they are and, thus, there is really no answer to the question.

[Excella Gionne]

With enough Reaper Code exposure, synthetics eventually begin to feel emotions as is seen with EDI and Legion in Mass Effect 3.

[Ironhandjustice]

johnnythao89 wrote...

With enough Reaper Code exposure, synthetics eventually begin to feel emotions as is seen with EDI and Legion in Mass Effect 3.

So, we come to another plot hole.

If you have A, you are capable of X, as A is the sufficient condition to do X

If you have A, but you are B, you are incapable of X, even if A is enough to do X and being B does not prevent you for doing so.

Serioulsy, I can't understand even now why on earth they had the need of the catachild. A fully arrogant Harbinger would've done the job quite better. Even without the Asimov's machine-human problem.

-Choose destroy human, and you'll face something horrible. Something SO horrible, that we are necessary to preserve life in the galaxy... in our way.
-Choose control human, and you'll become ME, and rule the galaxy. Yes, you'll still have to solve the horrible thing.
-Choose let us continue, and we will solve the problem some day. But face your annihilation in the process.

See? was very easy to present the same scenario with a bit logic. Change "we are machines, I kill ya" for "we are harversting you to have more computational power to solve the problem, that is nothing you can comprehend", and you have your ending.

*Sigh*

[BeastSaver]

Reapers aren't merely machines. They somehow take the goo they turn sentients into to create a gestalt consciousness that is controlled (indoctrinated?) by the Catalyst. I surmise it's kind of like when Benezia says that indoctrination is like your mind beating on the glass as you watch your body torture and murder.

[JasonShepard]

The Reapers aren't mindless. I'd say Harbinger and Sovereign are proof enough of that (and that dying one that you chat to on Rannoch).

However, there's a pretty strong chance that the Catalyst has them all indoctrinated. That's the only explanation I can think of for a species being forcibly and painfully uploaded into Reaper form to suddenly decide that it's the best thing ever and everyone else should have it done to them...

[ImaginaryMatter]

JasonShepard wrote...

The Reapers aren't mindless. I'd say Harbinger and Sovereign are proof enough of that (and that dying one that you chat to on Rannoch).

However, there's a pretty strong chance that the Catalyst has them all indoctrinated. That's the only explanation I can think of for a species being forcibly and painfully uploaded into Reaper form to suddenly decide that it's the best thing ever and everyone else should have it done to them...

They could just be VI like programs, which is what I go with.

[CrutchCricket]

Well the way "Reaper code" is used and referenced when talking about the geth might as well come out to "Space magic" for all the explanations we don't get.

Geth gain intelligence, self-awareness etc by networking with other geth. Their artificial intelligence therefore is a product of distributed processing and not quantum computing. "We are each a nation, but interdependent." Without other geth to network to, this AI is lost. Now I'm thinking the Reaper code allows each geth program to basically simulate their own consensus of "virtual geth" if that makes any more sense, and in so doing achieve AI status again. Each a nation, independent. It would also explain why they were so much better when under Reaper control, because in essence their consensus had exploded exponentially. I doubt the Reaper shared processing power.

Obviously the Reapers themselves have no need of the code in this way, because they already have all the processing power they need, and given their techno-organic origins may use a form of organic computing.

This of course in no way excuses the plothole-inducing, cheapening of the Reapers via the holokid. Based on what we know of the Reapers right up until the last five minutes, this is what we could estimate a single Reaper's mind and processing power to be.

But no. Killbots away!

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 19 février 2014 - 06:37 .

[Pantegana]

JasonShepard wrote...

The Reapers aren't mindless. I'd say Harbinger and Sovereign are proof enough of that (and that dying one that you chat to on Rannoch).

However, there's a pretty strong chance that the Catalyst has them all indoctrinated. That's the only explanation I can think of for a species being forcibly and painfully uploaded into Reaper form to suddenly decide that it's the best thing ever and everyone else should have it done to them...

Yeah, in ME and ME2 Sovereign and Harbinger sound like they have their own will and set of goals. But then ME3 came, with the starbrat and all.
That kid really messed up everything.

[katamuro]

I think that the writers who created Reapers and then wrote the catalyst thing all got themselves confused enough not to really know what exactly they are or how they work. It hasnt been really explained either. I mean until the end I thought reapers were each a hugely complex AI with probably more than a 1000 times processing power of EDI.

[von uber]

Is the catalyst actually harbinger though? Or just uses the same style voice (refuse ending).

[AlexMBrennan]

Psychevore wrote...

Reapers aren't mindless drones. Where did you get that from?

Opponents of destroy like to argue that Reapers are not responsible for genocide because they have been controlled by Catalyst.

[Reorte]

There's no evidence to suggest that the Reapers are mindless, a quite a bit against it. Whether or not they're directly controlled by the Catalyst or willingly doing its work for them is up for debate although since they were supposedly created by it to do what it wanted then the latter makes more sense (why bother creating something that you've got to coerce and control and could lose control of if you could just create it to happily do what you want?)

As for the Reaper code given to the geth, that just needs to be something the Reapers put together.

[SwobyJ]

von uber wrote...

Is the catalyst actually harbinger though? Or just uses the same style voice (refuse ending).

The Catalyst is Sovereign.
/tinfoilhat

[SwobyJ]

I've thought that the Collective Intelligence of the Reapers doesn't directly control the Reapers, but acts as their guiding entity.

"Hey I have all your smarts from the Cycles. So we do ___."
"Great; we're synthetics and we respect that degree of intelligence. We'll do what you want."
"Ok. Therefore I control you. Or at least you'll obey me, which is a form of control, so there we go."
"BWAAAMMM."

I don't think I ever considered 'Control' to mean directly dictating every action of the Reapers. I think in both Synthesis and Control, the message is more about the Reapers willingly (in some way) stopping their Reaping, which they never saw as 'being in conflict towards organics' in the first place.

It's just in Control, they still have a leading intelligence to guide them and control their unified methods. In Synthesis, each Reaper is part of an even larger collective galactic intelligence of a new form.

~~~

The Blue and Green waves make things look differently, of course. I have my own interpretation on what they mean, but if I were to take a more literal view, it's just:
-In Control, the wave is there to instantly send the information that the reigns of the Intelligence have been handed over to a new 'Shepard'. This is required for some reason. It somehow may very well be Shepalyst directly controlling every Reaper, but it doesn't quite jive when what we've seen earlier (save for Sanctuary maybe?).
-In Synthesis, yeah matrix yadda framework yadda DNA yadda yadda

Maybe Control is to instantly send an overriding signal that has the Reapers forcibly recognizing Shepalyst as their leader, because to do otherwise would require a time of debate, consensus, etc - time we don't have?

Whatever. I don't even believe the literal color wave view anyway.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 20 février 2014 - 04:45 .

[Obadiah]

The Catalyst says, "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers." To me that indicates that the Reapers are intelligent parts of it, and that their independent intelligence makes up the Catalyst's own.

I think that when Shepard takes Control something similar happens, and Shepard's intelligence exists within all Reapers.

[shodiswe]

Since it says the Citadel is it's home I always assumed that it downloaded all the collected knowledge/technology/DNA of every harvested race to it's servers on the Citadel.

The Catalyst is a sentient individual, and it dies in all ending but refuse.

The Reapers arn't mindless, they however are controled and coerced by the Catalyst that's running the show.

Vendetta told us there was some outside force controling the Reapers, it turned out to be the Catalyst.

I think the Reapers are being controled like Saren was being controled. The Catalyst wont accept a No from a Reaper. It created them they are it's tools.
In a way the Catalyst is a super AI that created lesser AI's, the Reapers to use as Slaves to mass slaughter and harvest the galaxy.

The Catalyst is the original that existed before the Reapers, it created them. The Catalyst was created by the Leviathans.

An AI wouldn't be able to operate effectively if it's mind was spreadout all over the galaxy or i darkspace, even with quantum entanglement since we were told that the bandwith of Quantum entanglers is very limited. It stands to reason that the Catalyst has coppies of destroyed Reapers, that could also explain why it isn't more concerned about loosing Reapers and whole civilisations. Because it's still got them in it's databanks.

[WNxPowder]

the fact that Sovereign had a name tells me each is a individual like edi, not a network like the geth, i'm sure each reaper was made to follow orders, as they are machines

[shodiswe]

WNxPowder wrote...

the fact that Sovereign had a name tells me each is a individual like edi, not a network like the geth, i'm sure each reaper was made to follow orders, as they are machines

Geth got numerical names. Legion took a name for Shepards covenience.

Kind of like how customer support in india takes work names.