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[Ironhandjustice]

shodiswe wrote...

Since it says the Citadel is it's home I always assumed that it downloaded all the collected knowledge/technology/DNA of every harvested race to it's servers on the Citadel.

The Catalyst is a sentient individual, and it dies in all ending but refuse.

The Reapers arn't mindless, they however are controled and coerced by the Catalyst that's running the show.

Vendetta told us there was some outside force controling the Reapers, it turned out to be the Catalyst.

I think the Reapers are being controled like Saren was being controled. The Catalyst wont accept a No from a Reaper. It created them they are it's tools.
In a way the Catalyst is a super AI that created lesser AI's, the Reapers to use as Slaves to mass slaughter and harvest the galaxy.

The Catalyst is the original that existed before the Reapers, it created them. The Catalyst was created by the Leviathans.

An AI wouldn't be able to operate effectively if it's mind was spreadout all over the galaxy or i darkspace, even with quantum entanglement since we were told that the bandwith of Quantum entanglers is very limited. It stands to reason that the Catalyst has coppies of destroyed Reapers, that could also explain why it isn't more concerned about loosing Reapers and whole civilisations. Because it's still got them in it's databanks.

That would have sense in the case that the problem had sense. You cannot say : I cause A to avoid A. Is redundant logic, and every machine would crash if they do that.

Add to this that the all the foreshadowing indicates another kind of problem. Something you cannot comprehend, and you get a crappy resolution.

Add to this also: Starbrat created reapers. Fine. Starbrat is the expresion of the conciousness of the reapers. Still fine. BUT, that implies directly that if Harbinger was the first reaper, in a moment Starbrat was only linked to the first reaper.

So, Starbrat IS Harbinger, and the central nexus of the reaper network. So, asking about Harby and starbrat as separated entities is a logic flaw. They are the same thing. Harby is just the 2.0 version of the IA, with improved hardware and shared processes.

I can believe that reaper overlord would install a "domination" protocol over the rest of the reapers, to be a dictator, and use their superior AI to solve a problem with a distributed processing task. But the ending problems are basically two:

- The problem is idiotic: minor races build AIs, so we come and kill them to avoid being killed. Because our purpose is save organics. What the damn hell? If machines raise and try to kill organics, reapers could come and kill lesser machines to protect organics. THAT would make sense. If a 2km ancient killing AI comes to say "DON'T USE AI" I would hear it. And if I would keep doing AI, the super-advanced killing machine will keep coming to destroy my AI project until I get bored.

So, the problem is that the super-advanced machine kills me to saves me.

- The solution is random and even more idiotic: The still super-advanced machine allows me to destroy it, so it fails and I got killed. Yeah, sure. Or, lets me to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL and do what I said before. Stare at organics and say: Don't f*** with AI. Just that I exposed on point 1. The last solution is "a wizard made it", so I won't even enter in that question.

That ending would've been cool if:

-Harby is presented as the hologram instead of starkid
-Reapers had a real problem, dark enough to confuse the player and presented as a major threat, and they seek a solution for organics (Asimov's law zero). A more developed Dark Energy plot would've been fine for this.
-The presented solutions made sense. The solution cannot be "magic" or make the problem worse.

[shodiswe]

Ironhandjustice wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Since it says the Citadel is it's home I always assumed that it downloaded all the collected knowledge/technology/DNA of every harvested race to it's servers on the Citadel.

The Catalyst is a sentient individual, and it dies in all ending but refuse.

The Reapers arn't mindless, they however are controled and coerced by the Catalyst that's running the show.

Vendetta told us there was some outside force controling the Reapers, it turned out to be the Catalyst.

I think the Reapers are being controled like Saren was being controled. The Catalyst wont accept a No from a Reaper. It created them they are it's tools.
In a way the Catalyst is a super AI that created lesser AI's, the Reapers to use as Slaves to mass slaughter and harvest the galaxy.

The Catalyst is the original that existed before the Reapers, it created them. The Catalyst was created by the Leviathans.

An AI wouldn't be able to operate effectively if it's mind was spreadout all over the galaxy or i darkspace, even with quantum entanglement since we were told that the bandwith of Quantum entanglers is very limited. It stands to reason that the Catalyst has coppies of destroyed Reapers, that could also explain why it isn't more concerned about loosing Reapers and whole civilisations. Because it's still got them in it's databanks.

That would have sense in the case that the problem had sense. You cannot say : I cause A to avoid A. Is redundant logic, and every machine would crash if they do that.

Add to this that the all the foreshadowing indicates another kind of problem. Something you cannot comprehend, and you get a crappy resolution.

Add to this also: Starbrat created reapers. Fine. Starbrat is the expresion of the conciousness of the reapers. Still fine. BUT, that implies directly that if Harbinger was the first reaper, in a moment Starbrat was only linked to the first reaper.

So, Starbrat IS Harbinger, and the central nexus of the reaper network. So, asking about Harby and starbrat as separated entities is a logic flaw. They are the same thing. Harby is just the 2.0 version of the IA, with improved hardware and shared processes.

I can believe that reaper overlord would install a "domination" protocol over the rest of the reapers, to be a dictator, and use their superior AI to solve a problem with a distributed processing task. But the ending problems are basically two:

- The problem is idiotic: minor races build AIs, so we come and kill them to avoid being killed. Because our purpose is save organics. What the damn hell? If machines raise and try to kill organics, reapers could come and kill lesser machines to protect organics. THAT would make sense. If a 2km ancient killing AI comes to say "DON'T USE AI" I would hear it. And if I would keep doing AI, the super-advanced killing machine will keep coming to destroy my AI project until I get bored.

So, the problem is that the super-advanced machine kills me to saves me.

- The solution is random and even more idiotic: The still super-advanced machine allows me to destroy it, so it fails and I got killed. Yeah, sure. Or, lets me to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL and do what I said before. Stare at organics and say: Don't f*** with AI. Just that I exposed on point 1. The last solution is "a wizard made it", so I won't even enter in that question.

That ending would've been cool if:

-Harby is presented as the hologram instead of starkid
-Reapers had a real problem, dark enough to confuse the player and presented as a major threat, and they seek a solution for organics (Asimov's law zero). A more developed Dark Energy plot would've been fine for this.
-The presented solutions made sense. The solution cannot be "magic" or make the problem worse.

Why would Harbinger be V2.0? Is the second Reaper 3.0?

Saren 8.0?

Or is it more likely they are all just tiny little little husks(drones) serving the gigantic AI of the Citadel?
The Citadels mass it to big to transfer through the Relay network, yet it could travel to earth almost instantaneously?!?

So, the Reapers are 2.0 but their technology is inferior and the same kind of voyage for them would take half a year or more.

The knowledge and data the Reapers harvest are likely valuable to the Catalyst however. I do however seriously doubt that the Reapers are some kind of upgraded version of the Catalyst.

Just as little as a husk would be an upgraded version of the Catalyst. They are jsut tools, it's even using tool alegories for the Reapers. The Reapers arn't at war or in conflict, they are just doing what they were created to do. In a sense, the same goes for the Catalyst.

All that talk about "The Citadel is part of me" was merely wordplay by the the Catalyst who took offense by being belittled.
Just as when Shepard said, "You are just an AI" "As much as you're just an animal". Because, Shepard is an animal, I can't see why people would think something else, we certainly arn't plants and we certainly arn't non-corporeal godlike creatures.
Cut a human open and the organs will look pretty much the same as most other animals.

Shepard sugested the Catalyst is a part of the citadel, from the catalysts perspective the Citadel is more like it's body.

The only reason that Harbinger or any of the Reapers should be the "Face" of their doom, would be because it's the enemy you got to know in ME1 and 2.
People later got upset to hear that this huge enemy they were fightign turned out to be the doorman or butler!?!
Seriously? We wanted the bouncer that talked down to us to be the big bad, not the guy hiding in the office behind all the big guns!

Harbinger and the others were built from spareparts, the Citadel and the Catalyst was built by the most advanced civilisation ever in the galaxy. Built with the best equipment from a galaxy spanning empire.

The Reapers are built from salvaged junk, the Reapers got minimal production facilities. I think the Catalyst is vastly superior to any singular Reaper.

This is however something that's poorly described. But compared to the Catalyst or the Citadel Harbinger is a tiny ant.. A drone created to serve the Catalysts solution.
I think a lot of people want the big bad to be introdused at the beginning, it shows up, it taunts you, beats the crap out of you, kills your family and lover and threatens to destroy the rest of the world and then pees on the corpses of your lovedones.
Now that's the enemy people want! Then after years of huntign the enemy it turns out that ass had a boss that ordered the deed, a nobody ****ed us... We're so pissed! It cheapens our revenge!

Modifié par shodiswe, 20 février 2014 - 11:16 .

[Ironhandjustice]

shodiswe wrote...

Ironhandjustice wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Since it says the Citadel is it's home I always assumed that it downloaded all the collected knowledge/technology/DNA of every harvested race to it's servers on the Citadel.

The Catalyst is a sentient individual, and it dies in all ending but refuse.

The Reapers arn't mindless, they however are controled and coerced by the Catalyst that's running the show.

Vendetta told us there was some outside force controling the Reapers, it turned out to be the Catalyst.

I think the Reapers are being controled like Saren was being controled. The Catalyst wont accept a No from a Reaper. It created them they are it's tools.
In a way the Catalyst is a super AI that created lesser AI's, the Reapers to use as Slaves to mass slaughter and harvest the galaxy.

The Catalyst is the original that existed before the Reapers, it created them. The Catalyst was created by the Leviathans.

An AI wouldn't be able to operate effectively if it's mind was spreadout all over the galaxy or i darkspace, even with quantum entanglement since we were told that the bandwith of Quantum entanglers is very limited. It stands to reason that the Catalyst has coppies of destroyed Reapers, that could also explain why it isn't more concerned about loosing Reapers and whole civilisations. Because it's still got them in it's databanks.

That would have sense in the case that the problem had sense. You cannot say : I cause A to avoid A. Is redundant logic, and every machine would crash if they do that.

Add to this that the all the foreshadowing indicates another kind of problem. Something you cannot comprehend, and you get a crappy resolution.

Add to this also: Starbrat created reapers. Fine. Starbrat is the expresion of the conciousness of the reapers. Still fine. BUT, that implies directly that if Harbinger was the first reaper, in a moment Starbrat was only linked to the first reaper.

So, Starbrat IS Harbinger, and the central nexus of the reaper network. So, asking about Harby and starbrat as separated entities is a logic flaw. They are the same thing. Harby is just the 2.0 version of the IA, with improved hardware and shared processes.

I can believe that reaper overlord would install a "domination" protocol over the rest of the reapers, to be a dictator, and use their superior AI to solve a problem with a distributed processing task. But the ending problems are basically two:

- The problem is idiotic: minor races build AIs, so we come and kill them to avoid being killed. Because our purpose is save organics. What the damn hell? If machines raise and try to kill organics, reapers could come and kill lesser machines to protect organics. THAT would make sense. If a 2km ancient killing AI comes to say "DON'T USE AI" I would hear it. And if I would keep doing AI, the super-advanced killing machine will keep coming to destroy my AI project until I get bored.

So, the problem is that the super-advanced machine kills me to saves me.

- The solution is random and even more idiotic: The still super-advanced machine allows me to destroy it, so it fails and I got killed. Yeah, sure. Or, lets me to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL and do what I said before. Stare at organics and say: Don't f*** with AI. Just that I exposed on point 1. The last solution is "a wizard made it", so I won't even enter in that question.

That ending would've been cool if:

-Harby is presented as the hologram instead of starkid
-Reapers had a real problem, dark enough to confuse the player and presented as a major threat, and they seek a solution for organics (Asimov's law zero). A more developed Dark Energy plot would've been fine for this.
-The presented solutions made sense. The solution cannot be "magic" or make the problem worse.

Why would Harbinger be V2.0? Is the second Reaper 3.0?

Saren 8.0?

Or is it more likely they are all just tiny little little husks(drones) serving the gigantic AI of the Citadel?
The Citadels mass it to big to transfer through the Relay network, yet it could travel to earth almost instantaneously?!?

So, the Reapers are 2.0 but their technology is inferior and the same kind of voyage for them would take half a year or more.

The knowledge and data the Reapers harvest are likely valuable to the Catalyst however. I do however seriously doubt that the Reapers are some kind of upgraded version of the Catalyst.

Just as little as a husk would be an upgraded version of the Catalyst. They are jsut tools, it's even using tool alegories for the Reapers. The Reapers arn't at war or in conflict, they are just doing what they were created to do. In a sense, the same goes for the Catalyst.

All that talk about "The Citadel is part of me" was merely wordplay by the the Catalyst who took offense by being belittled.
Just as when Shepard said, "You are just an AI" "As much as you're just an animal". Because, Shepard is an animal, I can't see why people would think something else, we certainly arn't plants and we certainly arn't non-corporeal godlike creatures.
Cut a human open and the organs will look pretty much the same as most other animals.

Shepard sugested the Catalyst is a part of the citadel, from the catalysts perspective the Citadel is more like it's body.

The only reason that Harbinger or any of the Reapers should be the "Face" of their doom, would be because it's the enemy you got to know in ME1 and 2.
People later got upset to hear that this huge enemy they were fightign turned out to be the doorman or butler!?!
Seriously? We wanted the bouncer that talked down to us to be the big bad, not the guy hiding in the office behind all the big guns!

Harbinger and the others were built from spareparts, the Citadel and the Catalyst was built by the most advanced civilisation ever in the galaxy. Built with the best equipment from a galaxy spanning empire.

The Reapers are built from salvaged junk, the Reapers got minimal production facilities. I think the Catalyst is vastly superior to any singular Reaper.

This is however something that's poorly described. But compared to the Catalyst or the Citadel Harbinger is a tiny ant.. A drone created to serve the Catalysts solution.
I think a lot of people want the big bad to be introdused at the beginning, it shows up, it taunts you, beats the crap out of you, kills your family and lover and threatens to destroy the rest of the world and then pees on the corpses of your lovedones.
Now that's the enemy people want! Then after years of huntign the enemy it turns out that ass had a boss that ordered the deed, a nobody ****ed us... We're so pissed! It cheapens our revenge!

You assume lots of things that I don't want, like the boss fight. But anyway, you loose the point of my argumentation:

-Problem is idiotic as presented. Logic is circular, and the AI would've collapsed by simply doing the opposite thing that is intended to. A program, even an advanced one, can't go against its programming in order to achieve its programming. They are binary: you do, or you don't do. There is no third state.
Is doing A to prevent A. No thinking organism can take that seriously. Both organic or sinthetic.

-Solutions are even more idiotic. A trillion years old mission should not be stoped by magic, allowing the pathetic human to stop it because "why not", or allowing the same pathetic human to assume control and ruin everything.

Not only that the deus ex machina is poorly presented. Is the fact that you had a stupid AI clown with a scary mask behind the big guns all the time. And, as is possible, is completely anti-climatic, and anti-epic.

Mass effect series are intended to be epic, so is another nonsense.

Add to this a "yes all" sheppard and science magic... and all the other stuff, and you get it. The evil guy nature is the minor problem. Its motivations are the real one.

And, to finish, people is pissed because the play to win. Raise up the difficulty to hell, but if you don't let them win in any way... they will be enraged. That is logic, because people play to evade real world. No one wants to play something were they can't win "because no"

That's my two cents though.<_<

[FlyingSquirrel]

JasonShepard wrote...

The Reapers aren't mindless. I'd say Harbinger and Sovereign are proof enough of that (and that dying one that you chat to on Rannoch).

However, there's a pretty strong chance that the Catalyst has them all indoctrinated. That's the only explanation I can think of for a species being forcibly and painfully uploaded into Reaper form to suddenly decide that it's the best thing ever and everyone else should have it done to them...

Yeah, my sense is that the Reapers have their own personalities and some degree of free will, but are prevented by the Catalyst from questioning its assumptions about organic-synthetic conflict and the necessity of the cycles. Whatever is left of the harvested species, the terror and anger they'd have felt at being harvested are apparently suppressed. (This is also why I hope that the AI-Shepard in Control wouldn't have to behave as a slavemaster - free of the Catalyst's influence, many of the Reapers would probably *want* to help with the reconstruction once they are able to reconsider what happened to their own former species.)

It's also possible that the Catalyst has suppressed or altered the full story of how the cycles started for some of the Reapers. Sovereign has a more aggressive, imperialist attitude and may only have a general sense that the Reapers have both a right and a duty to carry out these harvests. Harbinger is arrogant, but the "salvation through destruction" line and the talk about "ascension" indicate that he sees the cycles as ultimately benefiting all species and not just the Reapers, and it seems likely that it does retain the memory of the Catalyst and the Leviathans. The Rannoch Reaper's tone is one of grim necessity - it may or may not know about the Catalyst, but it clearly sees all this as working towards some supposed "greater good."

[SwobyJ]

I don't think the Catalyst dies in Control.

In fact, while Destroy shows the Catalyst's image being disrupted and removed, and Synthesis has it wayyy off (thus ambiguous) in the distance, Control is pretty clear about the Catalyst still existing post-action.

~~~

Sovereign - Rule, Order
Harbinger - Ascension, Transcendance
Destroyer - Duty, Chaos*
(*Duty is chaotic if said duty conflicts with establishment of order. One could even have duty to a terrorist group, for example, even if your attacks done in the name and instruction of it distrupt the society and cause what appear to others to be deaths that are needless, as long as we go along with the established order.)

Pretty clear what Bioware is going with...

Even taking things symbolically.. this is how things seem to go. All utilize what a Reaper God presents as options - including Destroy.

"You represent Chaos. We represent Order."
Therefore, going Destroy is still fitting into Reaper order (Catalyst's experiment) somehow, but in the most minimal way, and allowing the most Chaos to flourish, potentially.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 20 février 2014 - 05:07 .

[Oni Changas]

Or the writers f*cked up their own lore by ignoring/forgetting what they presented before.

ME3 post Earth landing should really have been rewritten. As it stands, I don't recognize it as canon; it is just irreverant garbage.

[SwobyJ]

OniTYME wrote...

Or the writers f*cked up their own lore by ignoring/forgetting what they presented before.

ME3 post Earth landing should really have been rewritten. As it stands, I don't recognize it as canon; it is just irreverant garbage.

It is everything.

[shodiswe]

The argument that the catalyst would be incapable of circular reasoning because it's programming is binary, or that such a thing would cause an overload or selfdestruction is crazy.

The humanbrain is quite binary, either there is a current or there isn't.
If it would be a machine with a technical problem in it's movable parts then that can cause damage, or a driver error.

In a way it was exempt from all types of limitations. It accused the Leviathans to be distancing themselves from the problem and ignoring the fact that they are part of the problem.
The Catalyst however is doing the exact same thing.
Some would call it a human or organic flaw, but it only show that the catalyst is capable of the same. It's kind of ironic.

Just because it's base programming is binary, yes or no, right or wrong, doesn't mean that it's higher functions are limited in the same manner.

It's no loner a yes or no question so binary "anything" arguments no longer apply.
Computers are capable of massive errors due to poor programming or set parameters. It still won't cause a system crash.
Morality, selfinsight, right or wrong, isn't binary, it's arbitrary and in the eye of the beholder.
A circular reasoning according to the Catalyst would merely be returned as false. If it approves then it isn't circular.
Others are still free to dissaprove but it won't blow up because others dissaproves.

[shodiswe]

Try arguing with a jehovas or a scientologist. Their brains arn't blowing up no matter how crazy their reasoning gets.

[Ironhandjustice]

shodiswe wrote...

The argument that the catalyst would be incapable of circular reasoning because it's programming is binary, or that such a thing would cause an overload or selfdestruction is crazy.

The humanbrain is quite binary, either there is a current or there isn't.
If it would be a machine with a technical problem in it's movable parts then that can cause damage, or a driver error.

In a way it was exempt from all types of limitations. It accused the Leviathans to be distancing themselves from the problem and ignoring the fact that they are part of the problem.
The Catalyst however is doing the exact same thing.
Some would call it a human or organic flaw, but it only show that the catalyst is capable of the same. It's kind of ironic.

Just because it's base programming is binary, yes or no, right or wrong, doesn't mean that it's higher functions are limited in the same manner.

It's no loner a yes or no question so binary "anything" arguments no longer apply.
Computers are capable of massive errors due to poor programming or set parameters. It still won't cause a system crash.
Morality, selfinsight, right or wrong, isn't binary, it's arbitrary and in the eye of the beholder.
A circular reasoning according to the Catalyst would merely be returned as false. If it approves then it isn't circular.
Others are still free to dissaprove but it won't blow up because others dissaproves.

I dunno agree with you

But hell, we can discuss for ages, so I'll go to the next point.

Idiotic != epic.

and

People play => to win, even if is almost impossible.

So, unless the logic is powerfull (Matrix logic was powerfull, for example), the whole discussion is pointless.

The death combination is, so,  "Unepic + idiotic + you cannot win even if you are a power-gamer (trollface+ )"

That is the problem. The Geth / Reaper code is just part of this bigger problem.

[shodiswe]

It sounds like part of the problem is poor war asset representation, and possibly bad lazy writing.

I can agree on that, it could have been a lot better. For a trilogy finale, it was pretty dissapointing, both priority earth and the ending.
After the EC I've come to accept it, it did bring some closure, it still isn't good though.

[Ironhandjustice]

shodiswe wrote...

It sounds like part of the problem is poor war asset representation, and possibly bad lazy writing.

I can agree on that, it could have been a lot better. For a trilogy finale, it was pretty dissapointing, both priority earth and the ending.
After the EC I've come to accept it, it did bring some closure, it still isn't good though.

War assets and  closure is one of the reasons I've been collaborating with MEHEM to add more war assets representation...

In particular, my idea was giving more importance to Harbinger and also give all the races a "if you have them, you'll see them on the screen" moment.

My animation level is not bioware's, but I think that this should've been in the game at first place, so I did my best

[Reorte]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Yeah, my sense is that the Reapers have their own personalities and some degree of free will, but are prevented by the Catalyst from questioning its assumptions about organic-synthetic conflict and the necessity of the cycles. Whatever is left of the harvested species, the terror and anger they'd have felt at being harvested are apparently suppressed. (This is also why I hope that the AI-Shepard in Control wouldn't have to behave as a slavemaster - free of the Catalyst's influence, many of the Reapers would probably *want* to help with the reconstruction once they are able to reconsider what happened to their own former species.)

If they want to help then that would mean that they were built with one attitude then were coerced into behaving with a different one. That would be a very stupid way of building them - best design their minds to agree with the Catalyst in the first place so it doesn't need to prevent them from questioning it. Given enough time it may be possible to change their minds but that seems rather unlikely.

[CrutchCricket]

SwobyJ wrote...

I don't think the Catalyst dies in Control.

In fact, while Destroy shows the Catalyst's image being disrupted and removed, and Synthesis has it wayyy off (thus ambiguous) in the distance, Control is pretty clear about the Catalyst still existing post-action.

You have it backwards.

Destroy it fizzes out (obviously).

Control it disappears.

Only in synthesis does it not visibly vanish before the shot changes. So only in Synthesis is it possibly still there. It would have no more reason to exist according to its bull**** logic, but maybe it can't self-terminate...

Control overwrites it, with Shepard. A vast improvement, obviously.

[SwobyJ]

You're right, it fades away.

Destroy - Violent disruption
Control - Disappearing
Synthesis - Off in distance

Still think (imo) that it doesn't die in Control, but where it goes, it won't be as the Collective Intelligence or whatever. But that's clearly a very personal interpretation.

[CrutchCricket]

It gets overwritten. holokid.catalyst is replaced by shepard.catalyst. It has nowhere else to go and no reason to go. Its purpose is voided.

Part of the reason I like Control (if I can be said to "like" any ending). I personally wipe the holokid from existence, and take its toys to boot. I don't hate the Reapers. I do hate the holokid. It is everything that's wrong with the Reapers in so many ways, in-universe and out. I still can't wrap my mind around how Bioware pooled everything that is to be despised in our enemies into one very glaring target, and then were surprised at the reactions.

[DextroDNA]

Since when were the Reapers mindless drones?

Do you not remember the conversations with Sovereign and the Rannoch Reaper?

[Gervaise]

The Intelligence controls them in that it gives them their primary purpose in life, their essential programming from which they cannot deviate. However, they have a degree of autonomy and can "think" for themselves and take initiative so long as it does not conflict with the main purpose. They have no reason to do this since they have been programmed to regard themselves as superior beings and that those they harvest are privileged to become a part of them. This does not make them mindless drones. There just have no motivation to question what they do. However, they do not have emotions which is why it is impossible for them to empathise with the creatures they harvest and why they do not consider their actions cruel or unnecessary. By contrast, EDI has programmed herself to develop an emotional response to situations, to see it from an organic's point of view and can regard the Reapers as "vile".

[SwobyJ]

CrutchCricket wrote...

It gets overwritten. holokid.catalyst is replaced by shepard.catalyst. It has nowhere else to go and no reason to go. Its purpose is voided.

Interpretation. It even says "WE will be yours to direct and control as you see fit", which could go either way (either a statement that the Catalyst will be controlled, or just that he's currently a part of the Reapers but won't later on so whatever).

Nothing in any dialogue declares that it's gone. It only leaves the setting, either violently or peacefully or shown way off into the distance.

Even Destroy only somewhat suggests it is completely destroyed, due to more violent disruption as its appearence leaves and the 'destroy all Reapers' stuff. But the Reaper bodies are staying, so that's already something to keep in mind. (I'd wager on it being completely destroyed though)

An AI with nowhere else to go and no reason to go... meh, sounds like a typical AI situation in Mass Effect. Geth become their own beings and have to deal with that. EDI was completely unshackled (no more dictacted purpose) and chose her own way.
And if it's more of a Controlled by Shepalyst deal, then that's up to Shepalyst and we haven't seen what he's done with the Catalyst. Again, there was no mention of being 'overwritten'. Replacement isn't overwriting. Like, by definition.

So sorry, for as much as you hate the Catalyst, its fate is still up in the air. One can decide that its gone in all endings, or one can decide that it's still sticking around and has a new purpose/unpurpose, or we can wait and see if the next game even addresses this (which it may or may not - we haven't seen any content).

Modifié par SwobyJ, 22 février 2014 - 08:58 .

[SwobyJ]

starlite, your memories give voice to their words.

[SwobyJ]

starlitegirlx wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

starlite, your memories give voice to their words.

Whose words?

Well *I* think it's actually Sovereign.

But that's something I need, you know, actual content-based affirmation of, to really assert.