117 réponses à ce sujet

[Rusty Sandusky]

  <---- mfw I read this thread

[Zazzerka]

Just play this a few times beforehand, to get it out of your system.

Tell me, where are the apostates hiding?!

[DKJaigen]

Autocrat wrote...

 My question is simple: Will I be able to role play a Roose Bolton like inquisitor? Who is soft spoken, good mannered individual who is also cold, patient, calculating, and capable of great cruelty and sadism? Or will I be forced to become a "wroth" person if I choose acts of cruelty? Too often biwoware confuses sadism and evil with wroth, ill temper and wild behavior. Just because I am patient and calm does not mean I could not inspire fear and awe.

I know Gaider said we will not be able to torture prisoners which will be a serious shame. I can be a mass killer but not a torturer? Paradox Crusader Kings II allows you to castrate and blind your prisoners and its just a grand strategy game , The Wolf Among Us had an optional torture scene in episode 2 to extract information while the game with "Inquisitor" will not allow it?

The spanish inquisition rarely tortured and only did so when all other forms of interrogation failed. In fact they are responsible for the end of witch hunts in spain as the inquisitors called witch accusers out on their bull****. So yes you should not be able to torture. that you link inquisition with torture is because of your own ignorance of the subject.

[Nightdragon8]

DKJaigen wrote...

Autocrat wrote...

 My question is simple: Will I be able to role play a Roose Bolton like inquisitor? Who is soft spoken, good mannered individual who is also cold, patient, calculating, and capable of great cruelty and sadism? Or will I be forced to become a "wroth" person if I choose acts of cruelty? Too often biwoware confuses sadism and evil with wroth, ill temper and wild behavior. Just because I am patient and calm does not mean I could not inspire fear and awe.

I know Gaider said we will not be able to torture prisoners which will be a serious shame. I can be a mass killer but not a torturer? Paradox Crusader Kings II allows you to castrate and blind your prisoners and its just a grand strategy game , The Wolf Among Us had an optional torture scene in episode 2 to extract information while the game with "Inquisitor" will not allow it?

The spanish inquisition rarely tortured and only did so when all other forms of interrogation failed. In fact they are responsible for the end of witch hunts in spain as the inquisitors called witch accusers out on their bull****. So yes you should not be able to torture. that you link inquisition with torture is because of your own ignorance of the subject.

Sorry DK I don't care if they tortured 1 out of 1000 people, the way in which they tortured people is so sick, I'm really surprized the UN hasn't brought Spain up on crimes against humanity.

Also Autocrat, honestly I'm sick and tired of people saying "But X game has it why not this one?" Cause seriously its a very old complaint from kids "But johnny has a blue one!!" is not a REASON for you to be given a "feature" 

Please explain why this game NEEDS a tourcher simulator attached onto it.

I personally don't NEED it to know my character is an AHole.

[Fast Jimmy]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Autocrat wrote...

 My question is simple: Will I be able to role play a Roose Bolton like inquisitor? Who is soft spoken, good mannered individual who is also cold, patient, calculating, and capable of great cruelty and sadism? Or will I be forced to become a "wroth" person if I choose acts of cruelty? Too often biwoware confuses sadism and evil with wroth, ill temper and wild behavior. Just because I am patient and calm does not mean I could not inspire fear and awe.

I know Gaider said we will not be able to torture prisoners which will be a serious shame. I can be a mass killer but not a torturer? Paradox Crusader Kings II allows you to castrate and blind your prisoners and its just a grand strategy game , The Wolf Among Us had an optional torture scene in episode 2 to extract information while the game with "Inquisitor" will not allow it?

The spanish inquisition rarely tortured and only did so when all other forms of interrogation failed. In fact they are responsible for the end of witch hunts in spain as the inquisitors called witch accusers out on their bull****. So yes you should not be able to torture. that you link inquisition with torture is because of your own ignorance of the subject.

Sorry DK I don't care if they tortured 1 out of 1000 people, the way in which they tortured people is so sick, I'm really surprized the UN hasn't brought Spain up on crimes against humanity.

You DO realize the Spanish Inquisition predated the Unitied Nations some 500 or so years, don't you?

You may as well ask a U.N. tribunal court to have a trial for the first cave man murder. It's completely imposssible to account for the facts in any way other than heresay and secondary sources. Not to mention the "accused" in such a situation is nebulous, if not downright ludicrous to even suggest. Are you going to make Spain pay reparations? The current government of Spain, which was not originated in its current incarnation until the 20th century? 500 years after the events took place? And even if it WAS the same government, who would the reparations be paid out to? The falsely accused and tortured back in the 15th century are long since dead and their decsendants nearly impossible to trace (not to mention possibly either non-existent, or numbering in the hundreds/thousands for each victim).

And if you want to then try and lay it at the feet of the Catholic Church, my response is "good luck." The Vatican has been able to swat off larger and more substantiated charges without batting an eye for crimes committed in THIS century. Even the attempt of trying to hold them accountable for things done in the Medieval ages is laughable.

[Zazzerka]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Sorry DK I don't care if they tortured 1 out of 1000 people, the way in which they tortured people is so sick, I'm really surprized the UN hasn't brought Spain up on crimes against humanity.

Probably 'cos it's generally quite hard to punish people who've been dead for hundreds of years.

I 'spose they could smash up their skeletons a little..

[Zered]

Sorry DK I don't care if they tortured 1 out of 1000 people, the way in
which they tortured people is so sick, I'm really surprized the UN
hasn't brought Spain up on crimes against humanity.

You real bro? Because if so then most countries of Europe that existed in the medieval times should be trialed since they commited far worse things then the inquisition.

Lex retro non agit. The concept of human rights didn't even exist back then <_<

[Iron Star]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Pitrus wrote...

I may have missed some info, but have they actually said there will be prisoners from whom information can be extracted?

Nope, but it's what people think of when they hear "Inquisition"

I think people got the idea that we could interrogate/torture prisoners from this concept art aswell.

Modifié par Get fired up, 20 février 2014 - 01:24 .

[NRieh]

Why is everyone thinking any historical Inquisition was a bloodthirsty murder machine?

Because that's the common perception of Inquisition, that is a result of books, movies and other media. It's same reason why many think of USSR as a bloodthirsty evil empire.
Note, that people are not guilty for being part of cultural society. It's hard to avoid all the memes and myths.

In our case it does not really matter, though. There will be a lot of misunderstanding and wrong asociations about this title before the majority of the payer-base finishes their PTs. I don't think this title was a good idea.

[BroBear Berbil]

Vit246 wrote...

karushna5 wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Its not because the organization is called "Inquisition". At least for me.
Its just that the organization that we are the leader of would seem to be the type to have torture as one of many methods for making an inquiry into things.

I think that is the name again, most of the Inquiring we have been led to believe so far is more the general, how do we solve the tears in the fade, and while we are inquiring about that over coincedence has lots of other chaos at the same time.

Unless we just assume blood mages did it on purpose instead of symptoms it makes more sense to look into history, local problems because the fade reacts to the area around it than torture people about something 90% of them had never understood wase ven possible before.

And if we capture an enemy prisoner who knows things but refuses to talk? What then?

You half-heartedly punch him once, he'll say "please don't hit me again messere" and then spills the beans - just like Inside Job in DA2.

I would be surprised if they even imply torture the way they did in Origins with Fort Drakon and Howe's basement, and that was cartoonish compared to Witcher 2's dungeon in the beginning.

Modifié par OnionXI, 20 février 2014 - 01:37 .

[Heimdall]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Sorry DK I don't care if they tortured 1 out of 1000 people, the way in which they tortured people is so sick, I'm really surprized the UN hasn't brought Spain up on crimes against humanity.

Ridiculousness of the UN remark aside, the Spanish Inqusition's torture methods weren't unusual for the period.

[CybAnt1]

Uhhh. OK, I guess I'm always reluctant to talk real world history n stuff, since it seems to draw the demons of thread lock.

This "Spanish Inquisition didn't torture" stuff? Uh, no. Oh, it was rarer than people think, sure, it's not like they did it constantly. Also, BTW, less often than other medieval "judicial" bodies (using the term in quotes loosely,)

But google the words garrucha/strappado. That is a torture technique they INVENTED. They also used the rack, and something akin to water boarding.



Time for a little strappado ... Nicholas Burton.

Now. Please note, as I said, I'm sure the official FAQ file for the game will make clear in the starkest possible way that the Thedas Inquisition has nothing to do with the Earth one other than the name. But there isn't one yet.

BTW, as for the silliness of trying Spain today in the UN, I suppose they would also have to try France for the Albigensian Crusade. In the 1200s. BTW, it was in the Albigensian Crusade that the famous "kill them (the heretics) all and let the Lord sort them out" was first uttered. 

BTW2, returning to game-world matters, bear in mind, the Tortured Noble you free uses the fact that Arl Howe tortured him and others, as evidence against Loghain and Howe during the Landsmeet. Clearly, like slavery - it happens - but it isn't universally accepted. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 20 février 2014 - 02:27 .

[LOLandStuff]

[CybAnt1]

Yep, they were making sure all the heretics were pumped n ripped to the max. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 20 février 2014 - 02:40 .

[ElitePinecone]

There is literally no point discussing the Spanish Inquisition.

It has nothing to do with the Inquisition in the game, period. Whether there was torture or not is completely irrelevant to the question of its use in DA.

What should be mentioned is how the games have referenced torture in the past. Arl Howe was a villain, the Chantry disowned Ser Varnell for using torture on qunari, Harwen Raleigh was stripped of his lands by King Maric for torture. I can't find a single example of where legitimate authorities used torture as a means of gathering information - it's always been portrayed as a mark of a villain.

Given that context, I'd say torture is completely delegitimised in what passes for Thedas' legal systems and conventions about ways to gather information. Based on what we've seen previously, it would make no sense for the Inquisition or anyone in it to see torture as a valid means of interrogating prisoners.

[XmajoX]

Autocrat wrote...

I know Gaider said we will not be able to torture prisoners which will be a serious shame.

Seriously?  I mean really - you serious?

[BroBear Berbil]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Given that context, I'd say torture is completely delegitimised in what passes for Thedas' legal systems and conventions about ways to gather information. Based on what we've seen previously, it would make no sense for the Inquisition or anyone in it to see torture as a valid means of interrogating prisoners.

Which seems a little Disney for a game series that bills itself as "dark fantasy" with a medieval setting.

One of the most disappointing aspects of Dragon Age for me has been how pristine the good guys are compared to the bad guys. Loghain commits regicide and then tries to usurp the throne. But wait! He's also dealing with slave traders and hiring blood mage assassins, and Howe is torturing and imprisoning people for his cause - so evil! And you can kill Vaughn outright while he's imprisoned just because he mistreats elves.

Meanwhile you'd be lucky to find a blemish on Eamon, Teagan, or Harrowmont.

Also, I get where the OP is coming from on the Roose Bolton point. Being bad usually boils down to being angry. SWTOR has been the only BioWare game that let me play in a cold, calculating persona as an Inquisitor or Agent (best class) but even there most of the Dark Side options were all about being angry.

Modifié par OnionXI, 20 février 2014 - 03:48 .

[Ryzaki]

?

Harrowmont had plenty of issues. Including supporting a terrible caste system.

[BroBear Berbil]

The caste system which has been part of Dwarven society for all of recorded history. I don't think it can really be counted against him as a moral failing that he isn't smashing his way through Dwarven custom. Casteless are usually out of sight and according to the memories do not even exist. He's not exactly keeping slaves.

I can't think of any other issues he might have. Certainly not poisoning Endrin. That's left up in the air but it certainly fits with Bhelen, and Bhelen never exactly denies that he was responsible, he just deflects. He may never have been poisoned at all.

Modifié par OnionXI, 20 février 2014 - 05:12 .

[Xilizhra]

OnionXI wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Given that context, I'd say torture is completely delegitimised in what passes for Thedas' legal systems and conventions about ways to gather information. Based on what we've seen previously, it would make no sense for the Inquisition or anyone in it to see torture as a valid means of interrogating prisoners.

Which seems a little Disney for a game series that bills itself as "dark fantasy" with a medieval setting.

One of the most disappointing aspects of Dragon Age for me has been how pristine the good guys are compared to the bad guys. Loghain commits regicide and then tries to usurp the throne. But wait! He's also dealing with slave traders and hiring blood mage assassins, and Howe is torturing and imprisoning people for his cause - so evil! And you can kill Vaughn outright while he's imprisoned just because he mistreats elves.

Meanwhile you'd be lucky to find a blemish on Eamon, Teagan, or Harrowmont.

Also, I get where the OP is coming from on the Roose Bolton point. Being bad usually boils down to being angry. SWTOR has been the only BioWare game that let me play in a cold, calculating persona as an Inquisitor or Agent (best class) but even there most of the Dark Side options were all about being angry.

Teagan, sure. But Eamon had the arguable plot to turn Alistair into a puppet king and take over Ferelden covertly, in addition to his earlier plot to get Cailan to dump Anora and marry Celene. As for Harrowmont... Harrowmont's just as bad as Bhelen, it's just quieter and based around vicious classism and idiotic traditionalism.

Also, it's good to be back.

The caste system which has been
part of Dwarven society for all of recorded history. I don't think it
can really be counted against him as a moral failing that he isn't
smashing his way through Dwarven custom. Casteless are usually out of
sight and according to the memories do not even exist. He's not exactly
keeping slaves.

It is absolutely a moral failing, and a rather horrible one at that. Bhelen wants to weaken the system, and he has quite a few supporters who are evidently fine with that as well, so it's not like the idea is totally foreign to dwarven society.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 février 2014 - 05:13 .

[Arcanis]

Of course Eamon and Teagon are the good guys.. so is the Warden,
while his enemys where absolutely evil..
That is actually pretty realistic -since the winner decides who is "good" and
who is "evil". And besides, finding evidence that you and your allies are actually
equally grey is a bit contra-productive, isn't it? =P

But as a reminder:
The warden is free to learn and teach Blood magic - forbidden.
One of your allies is a apostate, who teaches unregulated magic -forbidden.
Oghren is a drunkard that was forbidden to carry weapons because he killed someone.
Wynne is an abomination -though this one is a bit greyish.
Lelianas vision is borderline heretic.
And with a bit more thinking I could continue for most of your allies, one way or another,
but hey -they are the good guys, so their darkside will not be prominent!

[Ryzaki]

OnionXI wrote...

The caste system which has been part of Dwarven society for all of recorded history. I don't think it can really be counted against him as a moral failing that he isn't smashing his way through Dwarven custom. Casteless are usually out of sight and according to the memories do not even exist. He's not exactly keeping slaves.

I can't think of any other issues he might have. Certainly not poisoning Endrin. That's left up in the air but it certainly fits with Bhelen, and Bhelen never exactly denies that he was responsible, he just deflects. He may never have been poisoned at all.

That doesn't make it any better...and still counts as a character flaw.

Also Eamon's an ****. You just can't call his ass on it. It's another of the reasons I like marrying Anora and Alistair. Suck on that you douchecanoe. (You meaning Eamon )

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 février 2014 - 06:00 .

[BroBear Berbil]

Chaoticos wrote...

Of course Eamon and Teagon are the good guys.. so is the Warden,
while his enemys where absolutely evil..
That is actually pretty realistic -since the winner decides who is "good" and
who is "evil". And besides, finding evidence that you and your allies are actually
equally grey is a bit contra-productive, isn't it? =P

But as a reminder:
The warden is free to learn and teach Blood magic - forbidden.
One of your allies is a apostate, who teaches unregulated magic -forbidden.
Oghren is a drunkard that was forbidden to carry weapons because he killed someone.
Wynne is an abomination -though this one is a bit greyish.
Lelianas vision is borderline heretic.
And with a bit more thinking I could continue for most of your allies, one way or another,
but hey -they are the good guys, so their darkside will not be prominent!

Not exactly. I tend to side with Bhelen because as fan of Dwarves he leaves Dwarves in a stronger position in the epilogue, even though he's a tyrant. In the process of helping him, I always go the route that uncovers his forgeries. Having flaws and vices makes him a better character than Harrowmont could ever dream of being. Heck, I loved the monarchs and power players in Witcher 2, bastards that they were and you had to deal with someone.

The blood magic thing...I'm still unclear wtf blood magic is to be honest. After you unlock blood magic for the first time in Origins you can use it on any mage character afterwards. You don't even need to stick with the decision on the mage you unlocked it with, you can reload the save. So it's blood magic without any consequence. In DA2 no unlock is necessary. Anders says in order to use blood magic you have to make a deal with a demon, but that hardly seems true. And back on the torture subject, Blood Wound sounds like the most agonizing thing in all of Dragon Age and we're never allowed to use mind control as a plot device. They should just stop allowing the blood mage spec, but now I've gone way off course, sorry.

Ryzaki wrote...

That doesn't make it any better...and still counts as a character flaw.

Also
Eamon's an ****. You just can't call his ass on it. It's another of the
reasons I like marrying Anora and Alistair. Suck on that you
douchecanoe.

I suppose it's easy from an outside perspective to say he should be crusading for casteless rights but I try to think about it from his perspective a bit.

Someone else brought up Eamon's "plot" to marry Cailan to Celene, but Cailan didn't seem reluctant to correspond with Celene and a marriage might never have happened anyway. As an aside, marrying Anora to Alistair is one of the worst outcomes you can make imo, saddling Alistair with a barren power-hungry manipulator is cruel and a great way to end a dynasty. For the same reason, I think a Cousland marrying Alistair is terrible too. He's going to have a hard enough time making an heir - and years later in DA2 it seems like he doesn't in any case.

Modifié par OnionXI, 20 février 2014 - 06:18 .

[coldwetn0se]

Whether torture being depicted or not is desireable, we have had moments of it in each game. It just doesn't always come in the form you think of (i.e. the rack, iron maiden, water boarding, etcetera).

A good example would be during Wayward Son, in DA2. When you come upon the slavers in Darktown, if Fenris is in your party, Hawke can be given the opportunity to "use" Fenris to "make the slaver talk". Fenris will phase his hand into the mans chest, and root around a bit. This doesn't kill him, but I would certainly call it a form of torture, used to extract information.

Again, not for or against torture, in the game, and I don't personally have a desire to roleplay a PC that literally is doing the torturing. But, moments such as the above, could be useful depictions, and solely at the discretion of the player.