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writing style similar to Da2?


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#1
zerox505

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 ok im out, da2 had the worst writing in the series, looks like bioware did not listen at all...

edit: Well looks like i paniced and took this to another level.

Here is what david gaider has to say...



What is the same about Inquisition's writing style, compared to DA2:

Dialogue options are picked from paraphrases, off a wheel interface.

[/list]The player character is voiced, and dialogue is written with that in mind.

[/list]What is new:
No dominant tone. Meaning your most-selected tone does not carry through to influence other lines outside of the conversation in which you selected it. In DA2, dominant tone changed the actual line the PC spoke when action choices were made as well as those spoken inside of cutscenes ("auto-dialogue", as people like to refer to it here). In Inquisition, those are all relayed in neutral tone.

[/list]A question is often asked of how much "auto-dialogue" will exist in comparison to, say, Mass Effect 3. The answer is that the amount will be less than DA2 (and it is always neutral-toned, as mentioned above). This is generally just used in situations where the PC is saying something innocuous ("Go on" or "What is that?" ...things that don't really call for a wheel).

[/list]Addition of a "reaction wheel" (on top of the "tone wheel", which is for flavor responses, and the "action wheel", which is for places where the player is decided to do something), which allows for emotional responses to important events. The player always has the Stoic option (essentially the neutral response), or will have options such as Sad, Confused, Enraged, Surprised, etc.

[/list]Dialogue options on an action wheel now sometimes display a pop-up if the option is hovered over long enough, elaborating on what that action is intended to do. This only applies to actions where elaboration is felt necessary. It does not display the actual line which will be spoken by the PC.

[/list]The three major tones are now Noble/Clever/Direct (as opposed to Diplomatic/Humorous/Aggressive). These are primarily internal designations which affect how we write those tones, the idea being to reign in the difference a bit between the three. There are no longer alternate tone variants (which in DA2 were Helpful/Charming/Direct), as I don't think we communicated very well what those meant anyhow.

[/list]Similar to how the Investigate option off any wheel "breaks out" into a sub-wheel for questions (if there is more than one question), there can be a Special option off any wheel which breaks out in the same manner. This is where we put conditional things, such as dialogue options that depend on having a particular party member, being a particular race/class, romance options, having made certain choices previously, etc...and thus allows us to add as many of these to a wheel as we like without breaking the interface structure. Some of these now "grey out" if you don't have the requirement, meaning you can see an option you might have had, but currently cannot take.

[/list]Some people will find these things very different. Some will hardly notice, as these are largely structural and procedural differences for writing. Ultimately, as Mike says, the writing style is the same--but your mileage may vary. Nothing else is really referred to by "writing style" than how the dialogue itself is functionally written.

Modifié par zerox505, 20 février 2014 - 08:16 .


#2
CybAnt1

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Just a warning, the last thread on this topic was not just locked, but vanished.

And I'm not doing the "inb4" thing.

#3
Sentinel358

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They said they wont have dominant dialogue options again (Good,Sarcastic,Evil) but from the twitter response, it looks otherwise, im confused on the system theyre going with

#4
KaiserShep

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I think complaints about the writing style of DA2 are a tad overblown. It is curious to say that it's the worst, when there are only 2 games out so far. And then there's the confusion between something being similar and exactly the same. 

Edit: it occurs to me that maybe this is about the dialogue system rather than the actual writing style, which are not necessarily the same thing. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 20 février 2014 - 01:13 .


#5
Rusty Sandusky

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Well, time to panic then isn't it OP?

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#6
CybAnt1

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BTW, it's just amazing to me how much can be made of a very short tweet.

Which really could be interpreted in a variety of ways.

#7
Sentinel358

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KaiserShep wrote...

I think complaints about the writing style of DA2 are a tad overblown. It is curious to say that it's the worst, when there are only 2 games out so far. And then there's the confusion between something being similar and exactly the same. 

Edit: it occurs to me that maybe this is about the dialogue system rather than the actual writing style, which are not necessarily the same thing. 

Because of the twitter post, someone asked about neutral and investigate dialogue options and Mike Laidlaw replied with saying the writing style is very similar to DA 2

#8
Demx

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Sentinel358 wrote...

They said they wont have dominant dialogue options again (Good,Sarcastic,Evil) but from the twitter response, it looks otherwise, im confused on the system theyre going with


There won't be an overall dominant tone. You will still pick a tone for certain conversations.

#9
Grieving Natashina

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I think too many people are reading way too deep into a simple Twitter remark. It's a bit early to start leaping to conclusions. Folks need to remember that Inquisition has had far more development time than DA2, and they've had time to work out the rough edges.

Honestly, aside from being railroaded into the Mages/Templar nonsense, I thought the writing was the strongest point of DA2.

#10
Grieving Natashina

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Siradix wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...

They said they wont have dominant dialogue options again (Good,Sarcastic,Evil) but from the twitter response, it looks otherwise, im confused on the system theyre going with


There won't be an overall dominant tone. You will still pick a tone for certain conversations.

Word of God:

http://social.biowar...9851/4#16129126

David Gaider writes...

...

From our analysis, one of the most frequent breakdowns came from what we did with the choice lines-- namely that selecting a choice meant that there were three possible resulting player lines, based on the player's dominant tone. Why? Because we tried to make those three lines as different from each other as possible (or why even have them?), and thus you were trying to make a paraphrase that covered all three lines and it ended up being necessarily vague as a result.

While having those different lines is cool when noticed, I don't think it was actually noticed very much ("card tricks in the dark" is a phrase for variations which, cool as they might be, aren't recognized by players as variation unless they have inside knowledge or replay), so we're not going to use dominant tone in those lines any more. Choice lines are always neutral tone unless the tone is implied in the paraphrase-- makes it easier to write the paraphrase and less chance of disconnect between it and the actual line, and we can use the wordcount elsewhere just as easily.


And here's the other quote.

David Gaider wrote...

There's no such thing as dominant tone any longer. Tone exists for roleplaying choices in the tone wheels-- that's it. We don't track it. As I said, options off the choice wheel are neutral-toned unless the tone is already implicit, and any auto-dialogue (I'll use that phrase, since it seems to have stuck) we need to use is also neutral-only.



#11
Demx

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The question that was asked was:
"Will we still have investigate options as well as neutral dialogue choice?"

Mike replied with:
"Writing style is very similar to DAII."

They are talking about the text that appears in the dialogue wheel.

#12
CybAnt1

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Yes, which basically means, like DA2, the DAI wheel will also have investigate options and neutral dialogue choices. That's it. Big whoop.

Believe me, I'm no fan of the DA2 dialogue system (I think I've been fairly clear on that), but that statement doesn't bother me at all.

#13
Zatche

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Siradix wrote...

The question that was asked was:
"Will we still have investigate options as well as neutral dialogue choice?"

Mike replied with:
"Writing style is very similar to DAII."

They are talking about the text that appears in the dialogue wheel.


So, this means we will have investigative options. OMG DAII had investigative options. That means Inquisition will be terrible!

#14
JeffZero

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How can so many people learn this quote and not its meaning?

#15
Grieving Natashina

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Siradix wrote...

The question that was asked was:
"Will we still have investigate options as well as neutral dialogue choice?"

Mike replied with:
"Writing style is very similar to DAII."

They are talking about the text that appears in the dialogue wheel.

Yeah, funny how that has been overlooked.  

For those that are curious, here's the direct link.

#16
thats1evildude

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See, this is exactly why they're tight-lipped with info. Because of this crap.

#17
TheLastAwakening

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Huh? What was wrong with the writing style in DA 2. Not sure if OP is referencing the dialogue wheel or the actual story style. Imo I found both to be just fine though I preferred the story telling of DA:O with the O! Origins.



Have to agree with the post right above me.

Modifié par TheLastAwakening, 20 février 2014 - 01:46 .


#18
Demx

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I wasn't a fan of the frame narrative and the unreliable narrator, but that is just two literary devices that have to deal with the plot of the story not the writing style. Is this what people are getting confused over?

Modifié par Siradix, 20 février 2014 - 02:25 .


#19
Realmzmaster

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The writing style is no different than DAO. Last time I checked basically both games had the same writing team. In fact the lead writer was the same person David Gaider (Mr. WOG, himself). So what is being said is that Mr. Gaider changed his writing style between DAO and DA2. That the whole writing team suddenly adopted new writing styles..

Or are people confusing mechanics with style.

I really understand why Bioware wants to stay tight lipped about DA:I. One little tweet get blown out of proportion.

#20
Sentinel358

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Qistina wrote...

DA:O have movie scenes in which add to the feeling, sentiments, and judgment to the player (not the character)

For example, the Tower of Ishal is lit and Duncan watching it after killing the Orge, the Darkspawn rushing in with huge axe. That scene show us the despair, the confusion, the betrayal, the anger...it is for the player to interpret it.

DA2 have no such movie scene, everything is just focus on Hawke while the player themselves play as 3rd party. There is no such feeling toward everything. We don't see how exactly the Qunari invading the city, we don't see how exactly Kirkwal burning and become chaotic after the Chantry explosion. We don't see how Quentin operating Hawke mom.

In DA:O we see Drkspawn approaching from the forest in Ostagar and start of the battle, Loghain betrayal, Undead attacking Redcliffe, Archdemon commanding Darkspawn in Deep Road, troops we recruit marching to Denerim, Archdemon flying here and there, Darkspawn slaughtering peoples everywhere, Riordan make an epic fail....we see all in movie scene...that is what make it fun and interesting

So the writing in DA2 are just dialogues, there is no narrative. It is better if Varric say "and so the Qunari run amok, they storm the Keep, they roam the street, dragging and kill everyone..." and movie clip show that

Very good point that i never realized

#21
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Starsyn wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...

They said they wont have dominant dialogue options again (Good,Sarcastic,Evil) but from the twitter response, it looks otherwise, im confused on the system theyre going with


There won't be an overall dominant tone. You will still pick a tone for certain conversations.

Word of God:

http://social.biowar...9851/4#16129126

David Gaider writes...

...

From our analysis, one of the most frequent breakdowns came from what we did with the choice lines-- namely that selecting a choice meant that there were three possible resulting player lines, based on the player's dominant tone. Why? Because we tried to make those three lines as different from each other as possible (or why even have them?), and thus you were trying to make a paraphrase that covered all three lines and it ended up being necessarily vague as a result.

While having those different lines is cool when noticed, I don't think it was actually noticed very much ("card tricks in the dark" is a phrase for variations which, cool as they might be, aren't recognized by players as variation unless they have inside knowledge or replay), so we're not going to use dominant tone in those lines any more. Choice lines are always neutral tone unless the tone is implied in the paraphrase-- makes it easier to write the paraphrase and less chance of disconnect between it and the actual line, and we can use the wordcount elsewhere just as easily.


And here's the other quote.

David Gaider wrote...

There's no such thing as dominant tone any longer. Tone exists for roleplaying choices in the tone wheels-- that's it. We don't track it. As I said, options off the choice wheel are neutral-toned unless the tone is already implicit, and any auto-dialogue (I'll use that phrase, since it seems to have stuck) we need to use is also neutral-only.



Thank you. I always refer to this, but seldom can find the quote offhand.

#22
The Elder King

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So if I understand some people thought that when Gaider said that the dominant tone will not be present in DAI, that three tones will disappear as well?

#23
Sentinel358

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hhh89 wrote...

So if I understand some people thought that when Gaider said that the dominant tone will not be present in DAI, that three tones will disappear as well?

They just wont be so blatant is what i got from that hopefully diversity is included as well

Modifié par Sentinel358, 20 février 2014 - 03:47 .


#24
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Qistina wrote...

Thanks

In DA2, Arishok command his men to spear Hawke and Aveline...afterward, everything is burning. How? We don't know. Hawke magically appear nearby the compund with Aveline.

The Chantry blow up, after arguing meredith no matter who we side with suddenly everything is chaotic and burning. How? Hawke and co going to the port, on the way meet with abominations and some mages..how they get there? Who are they? Why they running amok?

It is not shown, so we don't have any feeling about it.

You know, the fact that it ISN'T shown might be seen as a GOOD thing.

After all, if hawke is running away and dodging spears from the Qunari, do you expect him to also magically see what's going on outside? What you're asking for is for information that Hawke DOESN'T know. Hawke can't know what's going on outside of what he's doing (unless someone comes and tells him).

When it comes to roleplaying, this might actually be a benefit of DA ][ over DA:O. The game "shouldn't" give the player information that the character doesn't have.

#25
The Elder King

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Sentinel358 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

So if I understand some people thought that when Gaider said that the dominant tone will not be present in DAI, that three tones will disappear as well?

They just wont be so blatant is what i got from that hopefully diversity is included as well

If you expect diversity of tones other than three we had in DA2, I think you're going to be disappointed. As much as I'd want more options in the tone wheel, I'm not expecting it to happen.
My hope is in the reaction wheel showing up in a lot of conversations.