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[Fast Jimmy]

arakat wrote...

Star fury wrote...

If "clever" responses will be as funny as were "sarcastic" lines in DA2, I'm going to throw up. Nothing beats Hawke making fun of dead people in front of their relatives, when you choose sarcastic replies.

But why would you choose the humorous/sarcastic reply during such a serious situation in the first place?

Because the paraphrase said something along the lines of "maybe they're not?" It indicated that maybe you'd be making a comment talking about how the remains found weren't their relative. Instead, it wound up being a comment about how their relative could still be alive flopping around town without bones. 

Which is a case of a tone trumping a poor paraphrase, where you can't trust the text being provided. And also a situation where it is more of an instance where always choosing the diplomatic/blue option whenever there is even the slightest chance of misinterpretation in the wheel is the de facto best course of action. Which is a real problem in Bioware games. 

[CybAnt1]

Because the paraphrase said something along the lines of "maybe they're not?" It indicated that maybe you'd be making a comment talking about how the remains found weren't their relative. Instead, it wound up being a comment about how their relative could still be alive flopping around town without bones. 

Which is a case of a tone trumping a poor paraphrase, where you can't trust the text being provided. 

Heresy, FJ. Such things do not happen. 

The DA2 wheel is perfect. Its logic is undeniable. You will abide. 

You are so like children. We must save you from yourselves.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 22 février 2014 - 02:00 .

[CybAnt1]

Those goddamn icons during dialogues better be optionable(turning on and off), 

It's interesting, LF, that they haven't even mentioned the presence of icons yet.

But we seem to have a very big pro-icon constituency here. Folks who think the icons are needed not just for clarification but for selection. And thus, they dare not lack consistency in color or position, or people will be confused. 

It's why I think you'd better find your roll of duct tape. I'm sure it's coming. 

[Bond]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Those goddamn icons during dialogues better be optionable(turning on and off), 

It's interesting, LF, that they haven't even mentioned the presence of icons yet.

But we seem to have a very big pro-icon constituency here. Folks who think the icons are needed not just for clarification but for selection. And thus, they dare not lack consistency in color or position, or people will be confused. 

It's why I think you'd better find your roll of duct tape. I'm sure it's coming. 

Mike Laidlaw said on twitter that icons will be back. If they are optionable i have nothing against it, it is better that way, so both crowds can be satisfied. I imagine is not that hard to put an empthy space (like ME) in the middle of the wheel. 
Hehe, just imagined Mass Effect with icons... Some wings, hammers, pistols, and laughing faces there really would be off putting as hell. The whole game would have different vibe to it.


God heps us when we choose the Mr.Gaider mentioned emotions - Sadness, Rage, Simpathy and so on... This will cause eye bleeding, but i already shaped some round papers in different sizes, i am good to go. I should of been that creative back when i played DA2., although there it wouldnt change much.

Modifié par LoyalFan, 22 février 2014 - 02:36 .

[CybAnt1]

If they are optionable i have nothing against it, it is better that way, so both crowds can be satisfied. 

Well, you know how it goes. You say toggle, they think double the beta testing, and out goes a kitten or puppy out the Edmonton window. 

And think of the puppies, LF. Think of the puppies. 

[Grieving Natashina]

I dug this out of the Twitter thread.

User:
Small question, if you have time/can answer it, about DAI: Will there be icons again over our choices? Like a fist, heart, etc

Mike Laidlaw ‏@Mike_Laidlaw:
Yes.

User:
so the explanations when you mouse over dialogue choices is scrapped?

Mike Laidlaw ‏@Mike_Laidlaw:
No.

[PsychoBlonde]

David Gaider wrote...
This is where we put conditional things, such as dialogue options that depend on having a particular party member, being a particular race/class, romance options, having made certain choices previously, etc...and thus allows us to add as many of these to a wheel as we like without breaking the interface structure. Some of these now "grey out" if you don't have the requirement, meaning you can see an option you might have had, but currently cannot take.

This sounds awesome to me--it'll be SO  nice to be able to SEE "hey, there's another option here if I have X person in the party" or similar so I can think about trying that next time without having to resort to a wiki or guide to find out if there are little tidbits I missed.

I do wish the whole party-switching mechanic was a little more organic-feeling, but I'm not sure how to rectify that.  I mean, it wouldn't bother ME if the party composition was basically dictated throughout the game, but I know some people would HATE that.

My mild dislike of the party selection screen is probably a pretty dang low priority.  

[Nord Ronnoc]

David Gaider wrote...

Just to be clear as to what Mike was and was not referring to:


What is the same about Inquisition's writing style, compared to DA2:

• Dialogue options are picked from paraphrases, off a wheel interface.

• The player character is voiced, and dialogue is written with that in mind.

What is new:

• No dominant tone. Meaning your most-selected tone does not carry through to influence other lines outside of the conversation in which you selected it. In DA2, dominant tone changed the actual line the PC spoke when action choices were made as well as those spoken inside of cutscenes ("auto-dialogue", as people like to refer to it here). In Inquisition, those are all relayed in neutral tone.

• A question is often asked of how much "auto-dialogue" will exist in comparison to, say, Mass Effect 3. The answer is that the amount will be less than DA2 (and it is always neutral-toned, as mentioned above). This is generally just used in situations where the PC is saying something innocuous ("Go on" or "What is that?" ...things that don't really call for a wheel).

• Addition of a "reaction wheel" (on top of the "tone wheel", which is for flavor responses, and the "action wheel", which is for places where the player is decided to do something), which allows for emotional responses to important events. The player always has the Stoic option (essentially the neutral response), or will have options such as Sad, Confused, Enraged, Surprised, etc.

• Dialogue options on an action wheel now sometimes display a pop-up if the option is hovered over long enough, elaborating on what that action is intended to do. This only applies to actions where elaboration is felt necessary. It does not display the actual line which will be spoken by the PC.

• The three major tones are now Noble/Clever/Direct (as opposed to Diplomatic/Humorous/Aggressive). These are primarily internal designations which affect how we write those tones, the idea being to reign in the difference a bit between the three. There are no longer alternate tone variants (which in DA2 were Helpful/Charming/Direct), as I don't think we communicated very well what those meant anyhow.

• Similar to how the Investigate option off any wheel "breaks out" into a sub-wheel for questions (if there is more than one question), there can be a Special option off any wheel which breaks out in the same manner. This is where we put conditional things, such as dialogue options that depend on having a particular party member, being a particular race/class, romance options, having made certain choices previously, etc...and thus allows us to add as many of these to a wheel as we like without breaking the interface structure. Some of these now "grey out" if you don't have the requirement, meaning you can see an option you might have had, but currently cannot take.

Some people will find these things very different. Some will hardly notice, as these are largely structural and procedural differences for writing. Ultimately, as Mike says, the writing style is the same--but your mileage may vary. Nothing else is really referred to by "writing style" than how the dialogue itself is functionally written.

Can you provide us an example of the new tone and the reaction wheels? I don't think it has to come from the upcoming game. You can make up an example, if you want, Dave.

[dan109]

David Gaider wrote...

[*]No dominant tone. Meaning your most-selected tone does not carry through to influence other lines outside of the conversation in which you selected it. In DA2, dominant tone changed the actual line the PC spoke when action choices were made as well as those spoken inside of cutscenes ("auto-dialogue", as people like to refer to it here). In Inquisition, those are all relayed in neutral tone.
[/list]

Awesome! By far my biggest gripe with DA2, to the point where I kept using the console to reset the dominant tone to what I wanted it to be in any given situation. Very glad to see it's gone.

Addition of a "reaction wheel" (on top of the "tone wheel", which is for flavor responses, and the "action wheel", which is for places where the player is decided to do something), which allows for emotional responses to important events. The player always has the Stoic option (essentially the neutral response), or will have options such as Sad, Confused, Enraged, Surprised, etc.

My second biggest gripe with DA2 was that there was no consistent neutral tone. It's critical to always have an option that most people won't love, but everyone can live with. Very glad to see that this will be the case in DA3.

The three major tones are now Noble/Clever/Direct (as opposed to Diplomatic/Humorous/Aggressive). These are primarily internal designations which affect how we write those tones, the idea being to reign in the difference a bit between the three. There are no longer alternate tone variants (which in DA2 were Helpful/Charming/Direct), as I don't think we communicated very well what those meant anyhow.

[list]

So what happens in a situation where you want to be aggressive with someone? I'm assuming that the game will allow you to threaten, shake down, beat up people etc. Will that be a situational option where appropriate?

[Sylvius the Mad]

I can ignore the icons as long as the paraphrases are not written such that they require the icons to convey meaningful information.

Whatever the literal content of the line is should be represented by the paraphrase alone. If the icon only reflects tone or intent, then I will ignore the icon, because I don't want the game to set tone or intent (and I will ignore the game's attempts to do so).

[9TailsFox]

Star fury wrote...

If "clever" responses will be as funny as were "sarcastic" lines in DA2, I'm going to throw up. Nothing beats Hawke making fun of dead people in front of their relatives, when you choose sarcastic replies.

http://cloud.steampo...13E1D0910A2CEE/


http://cloud.steampo...49869BDB4118FD/

http://gigglesquee.blogspot.com

Sarcastic Hawke best.

[esper]

Star fury wrote...

If "clever" responses will be as funny as were "sarcastic" lines in DA2, I'm going to throw up. Nothing beats Hawke making fun of dead people in front of their relatives, when you choose sarcastic replies.

http://cloud.steampo...13E1D0910A2CEE/


http://cloud.steampo...49869BDB4118FD/

http://gigglesquee.blogspot.com

Don't pick a respose marked as sarcastic when someone dies then. It is hard not to make that a jerkish line and it really should not surprise you that we can be jerks in a bioware game. We always have had the option to be collosal jerks. espically to authority figures.

Modifié par esper, 23 février 2014 - 12:11 .

[Andraste_Reborn]

I think that 'it can't get any worse' line is my favourite Sarcastic!Hawke moment of all. (Well, that and the bit about how Leandra spends her time making cake and poison, but I don't get to hear that one as often. And the bee sting scene in Mark of the Assassin.) Precisely because it's so staggeringly inappropriate - and if you clicked on the 'crack a joke' button then, I'm not sure what else you were expecting.

[KaiserShep]

These games would simply not be as worthwhile if we couldn't troll NPC's to our heart's content.

[Wulfram]

It sounds like the intent is to reign in the sense of humour of the middle tone, while still keeping the tendency towards witticisms and jokes.

[Aremce]

Honestly, Sarcastic!Hawke is one of the main reasons why I still like DA2 despite all the criticism against it. While you could be sarcastic in DA:O, it wasn't really the same. Most of the time the lines of the Warden could be a joke, or meant dead-serious. You never know for sure, not even the reactions of the NPCs make it clear all the time. And that's also why I, personally, am rather happy with both a voiced PC and dialogue options with icons.

Anyway, I can't wait to play DA:I and find out how the improved dialogue wheel works out. Especially the special options and the reaction wheel sound interesting.

[CybAnt1]

Whatever the literal content of the line is should be represented by the paraphrase alone. If the icon only reflects tone or intent, then I will ignore the icon, because I don't want the game to set tone or intent (and I will ignore the game's attempts to do so).

Dunno. When playing DA2, I thought for a slight while, at least at first, that when clicking on the paraphrase, it would simply be the first words I would hear that were part of a longer monologue/conversation.

I guess I didn't get the paraphrase "concept," i.e. that those words didn't really have any intrinsic relationship to what I/Hawke was about to say. They were instead supposed to summarize it. My frustration was I found that, as I've said, oft times, they really didn't. Whatever. It's a disconnect some people felt (I can see from forum posts others did as well), and others simply didn't, or ignored it and didn't care.

It also never occurred to me, again, at least at first, that the icons were there for selection. IOW, conceptually, I tended to view it the other way. I was selecting the line based on the words, with the icons simply providing a hint for the kind of tone in which they'd be delivered - I didn't think the tone would essentially matter in outcomes or reactions in most cases. 

Yeah, I guess I was doing it wrong. 

[Star fury]

esper wrote...

Star fury wrote...

If "clever" responses will be as funny as were "sarcastic" lines in DA2, I'm going to throw up. Nothing beats Hawke making fun of dead people in front of their relatives, when you choose sarcastic replies.

http://cloud.steampo...13E1D0910A2CEE/


http://cloud.steampo...49869BDB4118FD/

http://gigglesquee.blogspot.com

Don't pick a respose marked as sarcastic when someone dies then. It is hard not to make that a jerkish line and it really should not surprise you that we can be jerks in a bioware game. We always have had the option to be collosal jerks. espically to authority figures.

Oh, look how some are so touchy with their favourite toy.

Sarcasm is good when it's appropriate, here and there. But it becomes awful when Bioware chose it to make a dialogue tone for the entire game. Bioware writers really struggled with writing sarcastic responses in DA2, i.e. my example above. I'd say sarcastic lines were okay in 1 out of 10 cases at best. Bioware should've made sarcastic replies rare, only when it's appropriate and not in every dialogue.

I really really hope "clever' lines of DAI wouldn't be like sarcastic ones in DA2.

[CybAnt1]

Yes, although it seems they are sticking with a new three-tone system, and we still don't know exactly how the new three-tones will be implemented and/or defined ... I repeat my problem with DA2's.

Only a mentally ill person thinks sarcasm is appropriate in EVERY social situation, or that anger and aggressiveness can constantly be utilized when dealing with anyone and everyone. They of course might even realize that when dealing with people who can't be reasoned with, diplomacy and peacefulness will not be reciprocated (therefore they shouldn't be offered.)

It never made sense to me that in just about everything Hawke encountered or had to respond to, there was ALWAYS somehow a sarcastic, aggressive, or peaceful response. Let alone that those were the only three ways he could respond.

[byeshoe]

My concept of sarcasm is I guess different from Bioware's concept of sarcasm

Example...meeting Samson in the Wounding Coast. I remember the choices for sarcasm being "I remember you" i thought when clicked it, it would have Hawke saying something like "Your face..it's familiar, OH! that's right you /helped/ me with Fenriel...*grin*...when really you didn't *frown*"

Instead though...Hawke said something like this. "You were in the back alley, looking run down and homeless." .......that's not being sarcastic...that's borderline insulting. actually..half of the 'sarcastic' lines are borderline insulting >_______> so yes. My definition of sarcasm is much different than dragonage2's. at least make the comment that Hawke will say REFLECT upon the paraphrasing sentence. If a line saids "I remember you" at least have this line in the end and ohmygoodness I could go on and on about this xD

David's already been here and I saw what he said :] most of the other paraphrases besides diplomatic were untrue to the line. that's why i ended up picking diplomatic the most, because it would'nt insult anyone without me meaning to...when I first played the game

Modifié par Girlgoten, 23 février 2014 - 02:51 .

[CybAnt1]

Yeah. And isn't that odd, kind of defeating the purpose of 'roleplaying,' when you feel forced to be diplomatic all the time in a game, like you have no choice?

Welcome to the new world.

Not only where choices have no consequence, but you have no choices, at least choices that make sense. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 23 février 2014 - 03:09 .

[fchopin]

I am never one thing in life, I act differently to different people and depending how I feel at the time.

If I was acting sarcastic all the time I would think the doctors with the white suits would be visiting me.

[9TailsFox]

Star fury wrote...

esper wrote...

Star fury wrote...

If "clever" responses will be as funny as were "sarcastic" lines in DA2, I'm going to throw up. Nothing beats Hawke making fun of dead people in front of their relatives, when you choose sarcastic replies.

[Some pictures]


http://gigglesquee.blogspot.com

Don't pick a respose marked as sarcastic when someone dies then. It is hard not to make that a jerkish line and it really should not surprise you that we can be jerks in a bioware game. We always have had the option to be collosal jerks. espically to authority figures.

Oh, look how some are so touchy with their favourite toy.

Sarcasm is good when it's appropriate, here and there. But it becomes awful when Bioware chose it to make a dialogue tone for the entire game. Bioware writers really struggled with writing sarcastic responses in DA2, i.e. my example above. I'd say sarcastic lines were okay in 1 out of 10 cases at best. Bioware should've made sarcastic replies rare, only when it's appropriate and not in every dialogue.

I really really hope "clever' lines of DAI wouldn't be like sarcastic ones in DA2.

Sarcasm is good then made into a tone for game it was best think about DA2 I hope i can crack a lot of inapropiat jokes. Divine died, looks like Maker didn't saw what.

[Fredward]

Complaining that the sarcastic tone is inappropriate when someone was just killed is like playing a vuvuzela at a funeral and complaining to the creator that the sound it made was contextually inappropriate.

[Fast Jimmy]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Yes, although it seems they are sticking with a new three-tone system, and we still don't know exactly how the new three-tones will be implemented and/or defined ... I repeat my problem with DA2's.

Only a mentally ill person thinks sarcasm is appropriate in EVERY social situation, or that anger and aggressiveness can constantly be utilized when dealing with anyone and everyone. They of course might even realize that when dealing with people who can't be reasoned with, diplomacy and peacefulness will not be reciprocated (therefore they shouldn't be offered.)

It never made sense to me that in just about everything Hawke encountered or had to respond to, there was ALWAYS somehow a sarcastic, aggressive, or peaceful response. Let alone that those were the only three ways he could respond. 

What makes you think they are sticking with a three tone system? They have stated they are not carrying the Dominant Tone into DA:I, which would mean they wouldn't be forced to use the same three tones for most interactions. 
EDIT: NVM, I must have missed that section when I read Gaider's response earlier in the thread. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 23 février 2014 - 03:35 .