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[Sentinel358]

hhh89 wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

So if I understand some people thought that when Gaider said that the dominant tone will not be present in DAI, that three tones will disappear as well?

They just wont be so blatant is what i got from that hopefully diversity is included as well

If you expect diversity of tones other than three we had in DA2, I think you're going to be disappointed. As much as I'd want more options in the tone wheel, I'm not expecting it to happen.
My hope is in the reaction wheel showing up in a lot of conversations.

Wouldnt what they've said suggest otherwise? Thats kind of the whole purpose of the thread and what the devs have said, acccording to the quotes others have posted

[The Elder King]

What did the devs suggest? That we'll get more options in the tone wheel?

[JWvonGoethe]

With a couple of exceptions, the actual quests were pretty well written, they were just hard to follow due to pacing issues and lack of differentiation thematically in some cases.

For example, there were too many mage vs. Templar quests/three different "missing children" quests in Act 1. Many of these quests were split into different parts which could be played 5-10 hours apart from each other. That was pretty confusing to keep track of on a first playthrough.

However, the characters were memorable with interesting motivations (sans Orsino perhaps, who suffered from an unconvincing character reversal at the end); dialogue was also significantly better than in the vast majority of games I've played. For me the problems were mainly structural and definitely not stylistic. So I'm not really worried by this news.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 20 février 2014 - 04:51 .

[Realmzmaster]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Thanks

In DA2, Arishok command his men to spear Hawke and Aveline...afterward, everything is burning. How? We don't know. Hawke magically appear nearby the compund with Aveline.

The Chantry blow up, after arguing meredith no matter who we side with suddenly everything is chaotic and burning. How? Hawke and co going to the port, on the way meet with abominations and some mages..how they get there? Who are they? Why they running amok?

It is not shown, so we don't have any feeling about it.

You know, the fact that it ISN'T shown might be seen as a GOOD thing.

After all, if hawke is running away and dodging spears from the Qunari, do you expect him to also magically see what's going on outside? What you're asking for is for information that Hawke DOESN'T know. Hawke can't know what's going on outside of what he's doing (unless someone comes and tells him).

When it comes to roleplaying, this might actually be a benefit of DA ][ over DA:O. The game "shouldn't" give the player information that the character doesn't have.

The player of the game should know only what his/her character sees or knows. DAO was bad with the movie scene timing. The Warden had no way of knowing that Howe had enlisted an assassin and presented him to Loghain.  That movie scene should have been shown as a flashback as Zevran related the story to the Warden as long as the warden did not kill him outright.

The same with the scene where Bann Teagan speaks to Loghain and the queen. The warden has no way of knowing that this meeting is transpiring. 

I prefer DA2's approach  because it avoids giving the palyer information his/her character cannot know. Hawke cannot know what is going on outside of the compund. The Arishok had simply moved his men and followers into position and started the takeover.

[Nightdragon8]

zerox505 wrote...

 ok im out, da2 had the worst writing in the series, looks like bioware did not listen at all...

can you explain "how it was bad" because just saying "its bad and bioware sucks" isn't even contructive in any way.

I thought hte writing was decent. And honestly good enough. Sure there where a few "WTF Hawke" moments but it really wasn't that bad.

[Nightdragon8]

Qistina wrote...

Sentinel358 wrote...

Qistina wrote...

DA:O have movie scenes in which add to the feeling, sentiments, and judgment to the player (not the character)

For example, the Tower of Ishal is lit and Duncan watching it after killing the Orge, the Darkspawn rushing in with huge axe. That scene show us the despair, the confusion, the betrayal, the anger...it is for the player to interpret it.

DA2 have no such movie scene, everything is just focus on Hawke while the player themselves play as 3rd party. There is no such feeling toward everything. We don't see how exactly the Qunari invading the city, we don't see how exactly Kirkwal burning and become chaotic after the Chantry explosion. We don't see how Quentin operating Hawke mom.

In DA:O we see Drkspawn approaching from the forest in Ostagar and start of the battle, Loghain betrayal, Undead attacking Redcliffe, Archdemon commanding Darkspawn in Deep Road, troops we recruit marching to Denerim, Archdemon flying here and there, Darkspawn slaughtering peoples everywhere, Riordan make an epic fail....we see all in movie scene...that is what make it fun and interesting

So the writing in DA2 are just dialogues, there is no narrative. It is better if Varric say "and so the Qunari run amok, they storm the Keep, they roam the street, dragging and kill everyone..." and movie clip show that

Very good point that i never realized

Thanks

In DA2, Arishok command his men to spear Hawke and Aveline...afterward, everything is burning. How? We don't know. Hawke magically appear nearby the compund with Aveline.

The Chantry blow up, after arguing meredith no matter who we side with suddenly everything is chaotic and burning. How? Hawke and co going to the port, on the way meet with abominations and some mages..how they get there? Who are they? Why they running amok?

It is not shown, so we don't have any feeling about it.

So you don't like that kind of writing style of where you only know whats going around a person? Thats cool. Doesn't mean its bad.

Why the city is on fire? Lets see, no electic lightbubs so mor than likly lantens of some kind or another so in the panic they get knocked over and boom we have fire. Not to mention the Qunari may have set things on fire too to create an even bigger panic.

A building in what looks like a small square block blows up, agian people panic and things get knocked over not only that but mages and templars start firing... and I would think fire is a common spell everyone learns.

So I can clearly see how fires are going. No real need to "show" how they got set. Also if anything it's prefectly confusing you the player as to why there is fire everywhere. Which seems to me "Has done its job":lol:

[Iron Fist]

Qistina wrote...

I like DA:O writing better where it show to us the player what is going on. The knowledge is for us the player not the character, while we play the character as first party.

In DA2, we play as 3rd party all the way, also not knowing what we should know as the player. That is bad. Because we are playing a story here.

In DA:O it shows that Loghain order the troop to retreat, it is a betrayal, but it doesn't show WHY Loghain order the retreat. That is up for debate. The Warden don't know, we the player know the narrative but still don't know the motive. That is clever writing. So in the Landsmeet if we use that as a point, Loghain have the answer.

About Zevran, we the player know Loghain and Howe hired Zevran, it is a goo movie clip for the narrative. The Warden of course don't know, but Zevran himself reveal about it anyway. So the movie clip is for entertainment for the player also to establish a sentiment toward Loghain.

For a story driven game, movie clip is important.

*cutscene

[Grieving Natashina]

Qistina wrote...

There are many types of cut scenes, movie clip is one of it

I think you mean cinematic.  That's the proper term for a "movie clip" in video games.

A cut-scene typically takes place with in-game graphics; a cinematic is the really fancy graphics that are used for major plot points and trailers.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Qistina wrote...
For a story driven game, movie clip is important.

Depends on the type of story.

[Grieving Natashina]

Qistina, you must realize that DA2's extremely short development time what part of the reason why they couldn't re-create some the narrative elements you were talking about. It didn't make DA2 a bad story (I thought the characters and most of the story was well done,) it just wasn't implemented well. BioWare really didn't have time to do what they did for Origins, nor even much to patch the game.

They started to correct some of the errors in both gameplay and cutscenes with Legacy and Mark of the Assassin. However, before they could do much they were told to stop working on any DA2 DLC and start working on Dragon Age 3. Which is why there are some game breaking bugs to this day with DA2.

They've had ~3 years of development time to get (what is now) Inquisition ready. It might not hurt to try to give BW the benefit of the doubt.

Modifié par Starsyn, 20 février 2014 - 06:00 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I never really had a problem with DA2's lack of cinematics because while Origins was an epic story-driven game, ][ was more a character story-driven game. Thus comes back to the point of them not showing things Hawke wouldn't know was happening. As I said, it depends on the type of story-driven game

[CybAnt1]

In reality, it's Varric who's telling the story, so theoretically it simply never shows you anything that Varric could never have seen.

The problem with the use of omniscient narration, which is the narration style of DAO, is that it might work in films where the audience can "know" something the hero onscreen does not,; but in an interactive game, the participant and audience are identical. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 20 février 2014 - 06:07 .

[Sentinel358]

Qistina wrote...

I don't know about you guys, but i don't take excuses....for an established rich company like Bioware, there is no excuse.

"oh we don't time to make all that...but we will take your money based on your trust of our past product and name"

So no, no excuse

You dont have to like the excuse for it to be a legitimate one. You're disregarding the amount of time they're allowed to have. I bet if it was up to Bioware, DA 2 wouldnt have put out the game at all that year

[Grieving Natashina]

Qistina wrote...

I don't know about you guys, but i don't take excuses....for an established rich company like Bioware, there is no excuse.

"oh we don't time to make all that...but we will take your money based on your trust of our past product and name"

So no, no excuse

One year of development time was all they were were given.   Just one freaking year.

You can't lay that at BioWare's feet.  You can, however, go have a lovely chat with Electronic Arts.  During that time, they were rushing products out before it was ready left and right.  DA2 was one of it's many victims.

I'm not saying that DA2 was a perfect game by any stretch.  It has some glaring flaws, in game play, cut scenes and player agency.  However, the story was great overall, which really showed the strength of the writing team.  From all the complaints I've seen, few are related to the story outside of the Robes vs Skirts thing.

Modifié par Starsyn, 20 février 2014 - 06:08 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

CybAnt1 wrote...

In reality, it's Varric who's telling the story, so theoretically it simply never shows you anything that Varric could never have seen.

That's why I feel compelled to always have him in my party, so he knows everything that happened. Not that I mind since he's a great character and having a rogue, or at least another one, around is never a bad thing.

[Grieving Natashina]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

In reality, it's Varric who's telling the story, so theoretically it simply never shows you anything that Varric could never have seen.

That's why I feel compelled to always have him in my party, so he knows everything that happened. Not that I mind since he's a great character and having a rogue, or at least another one, around is never a bad thing.

You too? 

For all intents and purposes, Varric is the bard of the story.  It doesn't seem right to leave him behind.  It's much the same with Leliana for me in the first game.  I drag her around to most places, when I can.  

[Dio Demon]

Qistina wrote...

I give you an example

After the Landsmeet and we are preparing for the assault on Denerim...what more grand than seeing our troops marching to Denerim, a father holding his son and bid farewell...Mages who never set foot outside the Circle coming out in numbers...and such. The Warden don't see these but it is a satisfaction for us the player.

Then the movie show how menace the darkspawn is, it is a movie we watch it...it is a 4 or 5 pages of novel put into a movie clip, it give the scenario...the feeling, the environment....

Just imagine the Battle of Denerim is like DA2...suddenly your Warden just pop up in the burning city, that's lame

No the Battle of Denerim and Ostagar were cool, but ultimately they fell weak compared to other moments. I was SHOWN those two battles I didn't experience it, the best moments in gaming is when you experience something not just sit there twiddling your thumbs waiting for the cutscene to end.

Which is better watching soldiers charge towards an army of darkspawn or you as the character walking through Deep Roads listening to Hespith's chant. Or better yet would you prefer to be at the head of that army in the battle of Denerim and push your way through the darkspawn lines? 

In games experience trumps watching everytime.

[Nightdragon8]

Qistina wrote...

I don't know about you guys, but i don't take excuses....for an established rich company like Bioware, there is no excuse.

"oh we don't time to make all that...but we will take your money based on your trust of our past product and name"

So no, no excuse

just because you don't like that writing style doesn't mean its "bad" 

so can we learn to disagree?

[Silfren]

Starsyn wrote...

Qistina wrote...

I don't know about you guys, but i don't take excuses....for an established rich company like Bioware, there is no excuse.

"oh we don't time to make all that...but we will take your money based on your trust of our past product and name"

So no, no excuse

One year of development time was all they were were given.   Just one freaking year.

You can't lay that at BioWare's feet.  You can, however, go have a lovely chat with Electronic Arts.  During that time, they were rushing products out before it was ready left and right.  DA2 was one of it's many victims.

I'm not saying that DA2 was a perfect game by any stretch.  It has some glaring flaws, in game play, cut scenes and player agency.  However, the story was great overall, which really showed the strength of the writing team.  From all the complaints I've seen, few are related to the story outside of the Robes vs Skirts thing.

I dunno, most of my complaints ARE about the story.  There are some great gaping plot holes in DA2.  The extremely short development time undoubtedly played a role in it, but I'm starting to think also that Bioware in general just isn't so hot at catching plot inconsistencies, whether major OR minor.

[Dio Demon]

Starsyn wrote...

Qistina wrote...

I don't know about you guys, but i don't take excuses....for an established rich company like Bioware, there is no excuse.

"oh we don't time to make all that...but we will take your money based on your trust of our past product and name"

So no, no excuse

One year of development time was all they were were given.   Just one freaking year.

You can't lay that at BioWare's feet.  You can, however, go have a lovely chat with Electronic Arts.  During that time, they were rushing products out before it was ready left and right.  DA2 was one of it's many victims.

I'm not saying that DA2 was a perfect game by any stretch.  It has some glaring flaws, in game play, cut scenes and player agency.  However, the story was great overall, which really showed the strength of the writing team.  From all the complaints I've seen, few are related to the story outside of the Robes vs Skirts thing.

Well to be fair BioWare had already set a precedent of developing a game in one year with Baldur's Gate II. EA was probably hoping for history to repeat itself.

[Shelondias]

Had to make a new thread to post an opinion that could have gone in the other thread?

[Realmzmaster]

Qistina wrote...

I give you an example

After the Landsmeet and we are preparing for the assault on Denerim...what more grand than seeing our troops marching to Denerim, a father holding his son and bid farewell...Mages who never set foot outside the Circle coming out in numbers...and such. The Warden don't see these but it is a satisfaction for us the player.

Then the movie show how menace the darkspawn is, it is a movie we watch it...it is a 4 or 5 pages of novel put into a movie clip, it give the scenario...the feeling, the environment....

Just imagine the Battle of Denerim is like DA2...suddenly your Warden just pop up in the burning city, that's lame

No in my humble opinion what is lame is knowing information your character cannot know for the sake of dramatics. I am playing a game not watching a movie. In a movie I am a passive watcher. In a video game I am an active participant through the actions of my character.

I think being attacked by Zevran witrhout prior knowledge would add more shock value. The fact that the player is already forewarned that Zervan would be attacking in the future allows the player to be ready for it.

The point for the character and player is to fill in the missing information not have it handed to them. Also the warden does not just pop up in a burning city. It is already established why the warden is going to the city and he along with the King or Queen rally the troops at Redcliffe for the march. 

All of those armies could be shown marching behind the warden as they approach the city. That way the armies are seen through the eyes of the character.

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote..
just because you don't like that writing style doesn't mean its "bad"

so can we learn to disagree?

it is not about what i like or don't like, most of my critics is not based on what i like and don't like...i am stating the art of writing itself...the narrative, the symbolic, the movie, the core story...

You're forgetting that this is STILL just your opinion, based on what YOU think makes a story good or bad, so yes it's still just based on what you like or don't like.  Well past time you just accepted that.

[CybAnt1]

Development takes a lot more time when you need to render & animate lifelike 3D characters.

No, that's not a call by me to go back to isometric-2D. Just stating facts.

[Grieving Natashina]

I'll just disagree with you Qistina.

The "rags to riches" theme has been around for a long time, there is a lot of good stories based on this.

Some even happened in real life.

Modifié par Starsyn, 20 février 2014 - 06:21 .