332 réponses à ce sujet

[CybAnt1]

As for the paraphrasing, I think it's possible to avoid drastic disconnects like after selecting "I take responsibility" with Merrill or "I'm glad you're back" with Isabela without scrapping the system, but the fact that you don't know what you're going to say, only "the general sense of it", creates an unavoidable disconnect on its own and makes me feel I'm not in control. Basically, it means I don't know the mind of the character I'm playing.  

Well, as I told Mr. Schumacher last night (and in my old school way, I don't feel it's right to use the first name of someone I've never met and don't know IRL) ... 

Am I very happy? In many ways. It looks like the Quiz will be far more of a human being (not to be speciesist) than Hawke, and I will have far more control over what he does. That's great. 

But yes, like you, until I have full control over what he says, then I will feel this distance between me and him. Instead of BEING him, I will feel like a spectator. Watching. Being given "hints" of my own behavior, not CONTROL. Passivity and an inability to really understand fully his mind or inner life. 

I would be OK with this approach if there was a "Redo Your Line" button. That is, since I cannot read what I am going to say first, let me, after listening to it, actually rewind the conversation. If necessary, I'd do it 3 times, and then pick the 1 of the 3 things that seem the least bizarre or strange. But I doubt we will have that option, either.

No, as I said last night, not a game-breaker. But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 21 février 2014 - 01:30 .

[Nightdragon8]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

You're certainly not the only person that wants this. It's a balancing act of reconciling different things that people want, some of which can be mutually exclusive.

So sometimes we try to find solutions that may not be perfect, but hopefully help alleviate some of the issues people have.

Isn't it more of an issue of having the Paraphrasing being more accurate rather than using more words...

[Ieldra]

fchopin wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Taken out? What are you talking about? This was never so far included in any CRPG in any systematic way.

Most RPG’s i played have included the neutral option unless the writers wanted to make a special point in the game that was not supposed to be avoided.

Ah. A misunderstanding then. I thought you meant the emotional responses in general. There was never a systematic attempt to include emotional responses in rpgs. Note that "good" or "evil" responses are not the same. Attitude, personal philosophy and emotion are not necessarily related. What was missing for me was the *morally* neutral, non-judging, explorative option. Not so much in DA2, but in ME3.

[JeffZero]

I must be the only person on BSN who prefers paraphrasing. For every instance of being upset the spoken line went somewhere I hadn't intended there are 30-40 instances in which I've had fun putting my option through a "translator" and watching Shepard verbalize it in a different fashion. Feels like I get to experience new dialogue, almost, and soon as he speaks I typically forget what was on that little gameplay wheel a second ago.

[Fast Jimmy]

JeffZero wrote...

I must be the only person on BSN who prefers paraphrasing. For every instance of being upset the spoken line went somewhere I hadn't intended there are 30-40 instances in which I've had fun putting my option through a "translator" and watching Shepard verbalize it in a different fashion. Feels like I get to experience new dialogue, almost, and soon as he speaks I typically forget what was on that little gameplay wheel a second ago.

The difference is in your own comments - you are putting your choices through Shephard's filter. As if Shephard was a separate character, not your's. 

Nothing wrong with this, it just explains your preference - this is not your character you are roleplaying, but someone you are watching. You are the movie director, giving cues to the actor while they ad lib the script and performance. Whereas many people want to BE the actor. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 21 février 2014 - 01:53 .

[CybAnt1]

Dunno.

Here's an exercise I pose to you.

Think of all the great speeches that have ever been delivered, orations, great monologues, addresses, etc., etc.

Now here's my challenge to you: summarize them with a 5 to 7 word paraphrase.

I think that's a hurdle for any writer. Accuracy is the issue everyone focuses on. I guess I just have another. Can any paraphrase really give you the feel for the "soul" of a speech?

Oh, I know, Hawke never gave any "great" speeches. And yes while they were substantially longer than the single sentences of the Warden, I don't remember any of them being more than 2-4 sentences ... typically. Perhaps neither will the Quiz. If he does, though, I sure wish like I was the giver and not the spectator, give me the chance to read & rehearse.

Words have changed the course of history. The Gettysburg Address, for example. I can just imagine Lincoln being handed nothing but a paraphrase. And not knowing the rest of what was about to come out of his mouth.

You know, being the Quiz means nothing should "translate" anything for me. I *am* him, so there should be no wall between my thoughts and his, and I should know beforehand the words that are coming out of MY mouth.

Ehhh, whatever, at this point, I need to stop posing my arguments for what won't change.

[fchopin]

JeffZero wrote...

I must be the only person on BSN who prefers paraphrasing.

Yes they are making the dragon age games just for you.

Modifié par fchopin, 21 février 2014 - 01:55 .

[CybAnt1]

Look, I can see it's satisfying if you want to get through dialogue quickly.

And let's face it, especially when it comes to the things people are saying to me that I've already heard in my 1st play through, oh yes, I am hitting the ESC key on the 2nd play through. No, I don't want to hear your boring plot exposition given the exact same way a 2nd time, Arl Marl.

So it's not like I can't understand a desire to move through dialogue quickly, ever. There are times where I have really come to love the ESC key.

[Bond]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Dunno.

Here's an exercise I pose to you.

Think of all the great speeches that have ever been delivered, orations, great monologues, addresses, etc., etc.

Now here's my challenge to you: summarize them with a 5 to 7 word paraphrase.

I think that's a hurdle for any writer. Accuracy is the issue everyone focuses on. I guess I just have another. Can any paraphrase really give you the feel for the "soul" of a speech?

Oh, I know, Hawke never gave any "great" speeches. And yes while they were substantially longer than the single sentences of the Warden, I don't remember any of them being more than 2-4 sentences ... typically. Perhaps neither will the Quiz. If he does, though, I sure wish like I was the giver and not the spectator, give me the chance to read & rehearse.

Words have changed the course of history. The Gettysburg Address, for example. I can just imagine Lincoln being handed nothing but a paraphrase. And not knowing the rest of what was about to come out of his mouth.

You know, being the Quiz means nothing should "translate" anything for me. I *am* him, so there should be no wall between my thoughts and his, and I should know beforehand the words that are coming out of MY mouth.

Ehhh, whatever, at this point, I need to stop posing my arguments for what won't change.

One paraphrase is hardly more than 3 sentences. At best. Often it is 1-2 sentences. Now when you give a speech, like Shepard in ME2, you peraphrase 4-5 times, to give the full speech. Ive never seen in BIoware game an occassion, where  you choose something and your character does not stop talking for 2 minutes. I think the paraphrase part is the least of our worries right now. 

I personally believe that displaying the whole speech is hard to do, especially on the current interface. They had one sentence in Origins too, which was more than enough to know what is what. Now with the voiced protagonist, if you read on the screen 3 sentences, and then wait for the character to say them, it will bore a lot of people. Me among them. While i am sure many now want this read-it-all first aproach, many wont like it if it actually happens.

[fchopin]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ah. A misunderstanding then. I thought you meant the emotional responses in general. There was never a systematic attempt to include emotional responses in rpgs. Note that "good" or "evil" responses are not the same. Attitude, personal philosophy and emotion are not necessarily related. What was missing for me was the *morally* neutral, non-judging, explorative option. Not so much in DA2, but in ME3.

I did not have any problems with the ME3 dialogue because Biowares Shepard is how a i played the character but i did have problems with ME2 as i was forced to work for an organisation and forced to say yes to things i did not want to do, but i had no problems in understanding what i was going to say in any of the ME games.

[JeffZero]

An interesting and likely reasonably apt comparison, Jimmy. Made somewhat ironic by the fact that I've been in local theater before. But when it comes to gaming I am definitely more interested in helping to craft a great "movie", complete with plenty of personalized direction, than I am entranced by the idea of being the actor through and through. Sort of explains why ME3's "cinematic streamline" of the dialogue wheel... well I'm not going to say it didn't bother me, but it didn't really set me off, either.

If nothing else, CybAnt, you've piqued my interest with a historical reference as evidence for the need to include of your desired mechanic. (Which isn't to say I'd mind its presence in the first place obviously. An on/off switch on the settings would satisfy the both of us.)

[JeffZero]

BioWare's ME3 Shepard was startlingly similar to how I had tailored him as well but I still quibble with the frequent forced emotional reactions on the basis that simply because I can have my cake and eat it too that doesn't mean others should be completely deprived of the recipe.

I love that game something fierce but it has the most "augh, I wish they'd done this a bit more open-endedly" moments in the series for me. Besides, who knows? As uncharacteristic of me as it would be, perhaps someday I'll want to play a completely separate sort of Shepard, and then to experience such profound shoehorning in a plethora of ME3 scenes will not be my favorite experience.

Hence my hope that this reaction wheel is pretty great. I really dig ME3's attempt at humanizing a lead (as more of a director than actor when it comes to games no doubt I would) but sacrificing player agency is sometimes too stiff a price to pay.

[Lebanese Dude]

I don't see a problem with paraphrasing, although I do understand why some might dislike it. However, I don't consider it a hamper to the roleplaying experience. Some have said that they lose control. The thing is you never had full control of the character to begin with. You don't control any aspect of your character until the game starts. I chalk up any disconnect in speech to the fact that the inquisitor is from a different culture and background. I guess I am less picky over words chosen and more interested in the intent or meaning and thus am more forgiving of any disconnect. Frankly I was not even remotely bothered by ME3 autodialogue because the intent was always conveyed accurately.

[CybAnt1]

I personally believe that displaying the whole speech is hard to do, especially on the current interface.

Understood, but just as one thing that can change from one game to another is how graphics are rendered and animated, another thing that can change is the UI. 

While i am sure many now want this read-it-all first aproach, many wont like it if it actually happens.

Ahhhh.... the power of choice. I don't want it forced on you, but I want the choice for me. 

Anyway, yes, it often means double the hours of beta testing, so I do understand the problem with offering it. 

[CybAnt1]

I chalk up any disconnect in speech to the fact that the inquisitor is from a different culture and background.

But once the game starts, if this is an RPG *as I understand it*, then I *am him*. For as long as the game is running. I have stepped into the gameworld for however long I am playing, and becoming someone else. 

That means I have his culture and background, and I inhabit his mind - his thoughts, his emotions. I am him!

There can be no "disconnect" between oneself ... and oneself. If I am him - then I am him - and I control my own mind, my own thoughts, my own emotions, and what I am about to say. 

It's basically a philosophical discussion we're having at this point, although it has no practical implications.

Perhaps only for DA 4, if there will be a DA 4.

[JeffZero]

Hey now, I really enjoy philosophical discussions. Keep 'em coming while I continue to postpone my math homework.

[Bond]

Haha been there. But in my case the game i waited for turned out to be full of ****, so do your homework to break this curse.

Modifié par LoyalFan, 21 février 2014 - 02:51 .

[Lebanese Dude]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I chalk up any disconnect in speech to the fact that the inquisitor is from a different culture and background.

But once the game starts, if this is an RPG *as I understand it*, then I *am him*. For as long as the game is running. I have stepped into the gameworld for however long I am playing, and becoming someone else. 

That means I have his culture and background, and I inhabit his mind - his thoughts, his emotions. I am him!

There can be no "disconnect" between oneself ... and oneself. If I am him - then I am him - and I control my own mind, my own thoughts, my own emotions, and what I am about to say. 

In that case, anything your inquisitor says is what you would say if you were the inquisitor. 

[CybAnt1]

That's what role playing means for most people who have ever role played in most tabletop RPGs.

That said, if you're really trying - and remember nobody grades you for roleplaying other than you, not even your DM/GM in a game (*) - you're trying to do and say what you would do AS IF you were this other person in another world/setting. Not how you as a real-world person would do if dumped on Thedas. And I admit it can be hard to think about how to talk to other people on a flying dragon or a spaceship, as I've never ridden either.

(*) Although there have been games where character "alignment" has been a mechanic, and whether you act consistent to your alignment is "enforced". Most notably, how paladins can lose their paladin hood if they act in chaotic evil ways.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 21 février 2014 - 03:05 .

[Kidd]

JeffZero wrote...

I must be the only person on BSN who prefers paraphrasing. For every instance of being upset the spoken line went somewhere I hadn't intended there are 30-40 instances in which I've had fun putting my option through a "translator" and watching Shepard verbalize it in a different fashion. Feels like I get to experience new dialogue, almost, and soon as he speaks I typically forget what was on that little gameplay wheel a second ago.

You're not the only one. I often roleplay in third person during pen and paper games unless I have a very specific wording in mind, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest that I inform what I want my character to express and then I get to enjoy it in a cinematic fashion. In fact, it's my absolute preference. It's the best of both cinematic games and player-controlled narratives.

CybAnt1 wrote...
But once the game starts, if this is an RPG *as I understand it*, then I *am him*. For as long as the game is running. I have stepped into the gameworld for however long I am playing, and becoming someone else.

That sadly can't really happen completely. Hawke in the beginning of the game is a great example. She comes from a town called Lothering and obviously know all about it - it's her home. Yet if the player hasn't played DAO before DA2, the name Lothering means nothing.

There is an investigative option if I recall correctly with a paraphrase along the lines of "Lothering?". Picking it will have Hawke asking something related to Lothering, but not actually asking "hey so like, what about my hometown?". What Lothering is gets explained for the player during the ensuing dialogue without making Hawke look like an amnesiac, which she is not.

You don't know everything your PC knows, that would be impossible. There will always be a disconnect. This is true even for P&P games where it's not rare that a GM will give you a little "you know this and that about the thing you just heard about."

[CybAnt1]

This is true even for P&P games where it's not rare that a GM will give you a little "you know this and that about the thing you just heard about."

OK, it's fine, I guess we played different tabletop games, or maybe the same games, differently. 

I didn't do that as DM when it was my turn, and none of our group did it that way when they were DM.

Characters either know things or they don't. If the character is from the town of Shabonga, then the player knows as much about Shabonga as someone from there should. If that requires the DM sitting down and explaining to the player where and what Shabonga is like and what the people are like and its culture, etc., than they will. 

I understand as always once you're playing on a computer, this can't equalize. The computer contains lore codexes, perhaps so does the manual, the WIki is always out there, you can browse the World of Thedas if you don't read it. But you can't make people read it, nor can you put a Neuralyzer on them if they have now learned something about Thedas their characters shouldn't know - yet. 

People meeting Flemeth in DA2 *should* RP it as if they are meeting her for the first time. Yes, their Wardens met her in DA1, but Hawke did not have that encounter, nor does he have the Warden's knowledge. At the end of the day. though, there is no invisible watcher holding you accountable for allowing yourself to metagame the situation or not .... the only one who will is you, yourself, if you want to. 

[Hiemoth]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Dunno.

Here's an exercise I pose to you.

Think of all the great speeches that have ever been delivered, orations, great monologues, addresses, etc., etc.

Now here's my challenge to you: summarize them with a 5 to 7 word paraphrase.

I think that's a hurdle for any writer. Accuracy is the issue everyone focuses on. I guess I just have another. Can any paraphrase really give you the feel for the "soul" of a speech?

Oh, I know, Hawke never gave any "great" speeches. And yes while they were substantially longer than the single sentences of the Warden, I don't remember any of them being more than 2-4 sentences ... typically. Perhaps neither will the Quiz. If he does, though, I sure wish like I was the giver and not the spectator, give me the chance to read & rehearse.

Words have changed the course of history. The Gettysburg Address, for example. I can just imagine Lincoln being handed nothing but a paraphrase. And not knowing the rest of what was about to come out of his mouth.

You know, being the Quiz means nothing should "translate" anything for me. I *am* him, so there should be no wall between my thoughts and his, and I should know beforehand the words that are coming out of MY mouth.

Ehhh, whatever, at this point, I need to stop posing my arguments for what won't change.

But your Quiz here is a somewhat misleading, as certainly couldn't do anything near what you positing here in DAO. Actually, it was worse there, unless those great speeches consisted of one phrase. Yet, for some reason, you writing that his was a problem in DA2, where as in DAO anytime there was any kind of longer speech or emotional declaration, the PC had to stand on the background silently while other characters performed them.

And as has been stated multiple times already, you can never be the character in a cRPG, as there have always been a limited amount of choices of how to respond and those choices have been determined by the writer before hand. In DAO the maximum number of choices was six, which is actually less than in DA2 due to the dialogue wheel allowing separation of questions and responses. Although to be truthful, they rarely did have more than six there.

This isn't to say that you couldn't enjoy DAO's approach more, you obviously did, but to continuously make the statement on how much more liberty and immersion DAO objectively gave to pure roleplayers is false. You had as much impact in DA2 as in DAO, that impact was simply framed differently.

Modifié par Hiemoth, 21 février 2014 - 03:53 .

[CybAnt1]

This is what people seem not to be getting. What DAO didn't do, is not something that DAI, or any new game from Bioware, couldn't do.

There is a way to give voiced, verbal exposition AND allow "traditional" roleplaying. That no game has done it yet doesn't mean Bio couldn't try. There's no doubt about it, it would require some hard work and maybe some innovation.

If you think I just want the DAO system back as it was, period, you're not listening. Granted, I am basing my position on what things I know already will not change, and what will. I am kind of a realist that way.

BTW, OF COURSE you are always limited in any CRPG from Fallout on as to the choices that are presented to you. The discussion we are having is not how many choices to offer or how different... though that other discussion is worth having. The question is, to what extent should the player know what the choices being offered will MEAN, and what they will RESULT in. In terms of their own actions and words, not how the world responds to them, which is always outside your control. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 21 février 2014 - 03:57 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I understand as always once you're playing on a computer, this can't equalize. The computer contains lore codexes, perhaps so does the manual, the WIki is always out there, you can browse the World of Thedas if you don't read it. But you can't make people read it, nor can you put a Neuralyzer on them if they have now learned something about Thedas their characters shouldn't know - yet.

Memory neuralyzers for DA:I.

Semi-confirmed rumor.

[Stalker]

No, please no.
I HATED the system of DA2 with their pre-defined themes for the responses. I just don't get behind the design choice to push the same 3 notions into absolutely every conversation. Making every single response overly noble, clever, or direct is just plain awkward and it feels like it takes away a lot of roleplaying opportunities.