46 réponses à ce sujet

[GranfalloonMembr]

Isn't telling me at camp that she hopes the darkspawn kill me and that I'm no better than them before walking away and deciding she's just gonna sit out the fight against the archdemon just a bit of an overreaction?

Darkspawn: want to kill and destroy everybody and everything.

Me: a guy who poured some blood on some ashes that, for all she knew, might not have even been good for anything. Even if it's blasphemy, it isn't civilization-destroying or anything. The worst that happens is that people continue to die from the same diseases they always did. Not to mention that the ashes would have only been good for treating X number of cases before they were finally gone, so we're talking about, what, a few dozen people here who don't get a miracle cure because of my actions?

Get a sense of proportion, Wynne.

[DarthGizka]

Religious people tend to be neither logical nor utilitarian when things they hold sacred are concerned. That's pretty much the definition of 'sacred'.

If I were part of your group then your approval rating would go far into the negative range and you wouldn't hear the end of it. I wouldn't kill you unless you compounded your deed by suitable dialogue choices, but I would certainly leave you if there were viable alternatives for defeating Archie (e.g. Riordan, Orlesian Wardens).

And I'm an avowed atheist.

I think that sacred symbols must be treated with care, not because of presumed magical powers, but because of the actual power they have on the minds of the people who believe in them.

The fact that the Ashes are actually real is neither here nor there, for the reasons that you have stated already. Their significance lies most of all in their power over the minds of believers. Which is why I'm always tempted to kill Genitivi to keep the site from being turned into an industrial fraud factory in the style of Lourdes (and which would be just another way of defiling the ashes).

Modifié par DarthGizka, 20 février 2014 - 07:30 .

[DarthGizka]

Which is why I'm always tempted to kill Genitivi

Of course, here I was thinking in terms of the limited choices that the game offers.

If I were free to act as I please then I would try to convince Genitivi of the necessity of keeping the Ashes secret at all cost, and I would make it very clear that his life would be forfeit the very second he breathed word of the Ashes to anyone. Then I would probably found some kind of monastic order dedicated to the contemplation of scholarly wisdom, to proficiency in martial arts, and to the protection of researchers during their travels. With the additional secret purpose of protecting the Ashes. Some kind of dirty secret or great treasure would have to be invented and put in place, in order to divert suspicion.

Something like a cross between Shaolin and Warehouse 13.

Modifié par DarthGizka, 20 février 2014 - 08:00 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Maybe Green Ronin will recreate the main campaign? There's just so much wasted potential that could be realized that way.

[GranfalloonMembr]

DarthGizka wrote...

Religious people tend to be neither logical nor utilitarian when things they hold sacred are concerned. That's pretty much the definition of 'sacred'.

If I were part of your group then your approval rating would go far into the negative range and you wouldn't hear the end of it. I wouldn't kill you unless you compounded your deed by suitable dialogue choices, but I would certainly leave you if there were viable alternatives for defeating Archie (e.g. Riordan, Orlesian Wardens).

And I'm an avowed atheist.

I think that sacred symbols must be treated with care, not because of presumed magical powers, but because of the actual power they have on the minds of the people who believe in them.

The fact that the Ashes are actually real is neither here nor there, for the reasons that you have stated already. Their significance lies most of all in their power over the minds of believers. Which is why I'm always tempted to kill Genitivi to keep the site from being turned into an industrial fraud factory in the style of Lourdes (and which would be just another way of defiling the ashes).

I agree that it's understandable she's pissed. (Strangely, Leliana seems to have no idea of what I did even though Wynne says that the whole camp knows. She just talks to me about how great it must've been to have gotten to be in the presence of the Ashes.) But to just walk away....I mean, I think her exact words are that she wants nothing to do with "my cause" any more.

"My cause" is not just ruining religious artifacts. My cause is saving everybody from the darkspawn.

At least in Alistair's case it takes more than just being really really angry at you before he says "The hell with this" and walks away from the fight completely. He'll tell you how much you suck, but still reluctantly acknowledge that you're the only hope of actually getting the archdemon killed so he ought to keep on helping you do that.

Wynne seems to need much less of an excuse, since there are like four times she turns on you and three of those involve her actually trying to kill you. (LOL @ healer mage trying to single-handedly kill 3/4 of a full party, of any combination.) Two of them are understandable, I suppose, but one of them is just like "OMG this black-haired woman with the yellow eyes is an apostate, they all must DIEEEE!"

And the thing is that lots of people who don't like one another at all wind up working together in the end because they realize if the darkspawn win, they're all dead. I mean, I don't think that the people who still supported Loghain even after the revelations at the Landsmeet just went "Okay, we're just going to let the darkspawn do whatever they want. Let Denerim burn to the ground for all we care, if Loghain can't rule any more."

And while it's true that Wynne could just go and fight alongside somebody else and associate with me as little as possible, while that would be the mature thing to do, is that what she actually does? Or does she just vanish entirely? And of course if she decided to look for Riordan, he allies with me, so...

Modifié par Rodian Power, 20 février 2014 - 01:12 .

[DarthGizka]

Interesting points, Rodian. BTW, is that "Rodian" as in "a galaxy far, far away"?

The scripting of companion reactions is bugged, and it seems that you only get one 'special reaction' at a time. In your case, if Wynne hadn't been in the party when you reentered camp - i.e. not yet, or because she had been present at the defiling - then Leliana would quite probably have reacted strongly.

The utility of the Reaver specialisation is somewhat debatable, though.

The first two abilities are very nice for a melee warrior, and the Champion/Reaver combo is my personal favourite. For one thing, it turns a sword & board warrior into a veritable one-man army who needs no support at all except for calling in an occasional airstrike against tactically inconvenient enemy mages. For another, it allows you to utterly humiliate and destroy Loghain during the duel, instead of merely trouncing him. Plus, presumably all Grey Wardens would be able to learn Reaver abilities once you have extracted the secret from Kolgrim.

Last but not least, it is to be expected that hordes and hordes of darkspawn need to be fought in order to get even close to Archi, and these hordes will include ranked or elite enemies. Hence the first two Reaver abilities would significantly increase the chance of success for the Grey Wardens in general.

However, if we look only at our tiny band of confederates then the case is less clear cut, given that we have a dedicated spirit healer at our disposal.

Duncan would quite probably opt for defiling the Ashes, and then reduce the chance of negative repercussions ("The Grey Wardens are evil, they have defiled the Sacred Ashes!!1!") with the aid of his trusty dagger. He wouldn't even wait for Wynne to attack to eliminate her. And Leliana as well, unless he could be 100% certain that he could corrupt her as effectively as he managed with Alistair.

Wynne's attack is slightly less suicidal if it happens in the hall with the Urn, because there she has the Guardian to help her (unless you harvested him already). But even so it seems to quite out of character.

It also seems implausible that the companions at camp heard of the defiling at all; it implies that the Warden is a bad judge of character, or simply doesn't care.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

People have extreme reactions over many things they hold dear; it doesn't have to be based in religion, only exceptionally important to them.

Killing someone for failing to win a sporting event, for instance.

[Mike3207]

Wynne's always been a prima donna. She's likely to be the only support healer you have though, so unless you decide to always keep her at camp or have a support healer PC, you have to put up with her nonsense.


The conversation that scared me more than any other was at the end when Wynne told me Irving asked her to take over as First Enchanter, before she turned him down. Can you imagine Wynne as a leader? What a nightmare.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 21 février 2014 - 03:29 .

[DarthGizka]

Wynne does like to preach, doesn't she. But she seems to have learnt from her mistakes with Aneirin, so maybe she wouldn't have made a bad head teacher. Irving is an oddball mixed bag in his own right, especially if you consider the events of the mage origin. And I can imagine the Chantry and templar dudes positively cringeing at the thought of getting their ears chewed off by Wynne...

[Jaison1986]

I don't know man. Wynne being religious is not what bothers me. I think it's lack of sense when it comes to the bigger picture. Here we have this person, who destroy the lifeless ashes of an woman who died long ago. He is not hurting anyone, apart from perhaps the ego of some self righteous priests. The very person who have the best chance to stop the blight, and she decides that some inanimate ashes are more important then Ferelden's savior?

[Melbella]

I was surprised it was Wynne who flipped out about the ashes instead of Leliana. My Dalish elf romancing Morrigan was glad to be rid of her, however. I thought it amusing to consider that since she only had leave from the Circle to travel with my Warden, and she didn't go back to the Circle after she left, that technically she was an apostate too. If only I'd had the option to rat her out to the templars......

edited for typo

Modifié par Melbella, 21 février 2014 - 03:35 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Jaison1986 wrote...

I don't know man. Wynne being religious is not what bothers me. I think it's lack of sense when it comes to the bigger picture. Here we have this person, who destroy the lifeless ashes of an woman who died long ago. He is not hurting anyone, apart from perhaps the ego of some self righteous priests. The very person who have the best chance to stop the blight, and she decides that some inanimate ashes are more important then Ferelden's savior?

The Warden very likely sentenced a number of people to death by destroying an item that could have saved them. As for killing the Warden being a bigger loss for the world, I agree. (I'll note the Wynne has no real way of knowing that the Warden is strictly necessary, but considering what the Warden is trying to do killing him/her over this just doesn't check out as far as lives ruined/saved.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 22 février 2014 - 05:23 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Jaison1986 wrote...

I don't know man. Wynne being religious is not what bothers me. I think it's lack of sense when it comes to the bigger picture. Here we have this person, who destroy the lifeless ashes of an woman who died long ago. He is not hurting anyone, apart from perhaps the ego of some self righteous priests. The very person who have the best chance to stop the blight, and she decides that some inanimate ashes are more important then Ferelden's savior?

Heh, some Warden has an overblown ego. Wynne believes Andraste is the world's savior, not you. Therein your priorities differ a great deal.

[cJohnOne]

Well defiling the ashes would be sacrilege  Duh.  It's I'm pretty sure the most sacred  relic in their religion.

[Shadow Fox]

Considering you just defaced a religious figure's remains out of maliciousness or pettiness I don't blame her for leaving you.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Considering you just defaced a religious figure's remains out of maliciousness or pettiness I don't blame her for leaving you.  

Fine, but "no better than the darkspawn" is still a bit of a stretch.

[caradoc2000]

Defiling someone tomb is disrespectful and immoral...not only the tomb here but corrupting the ashes of a long dead woman. No matter what our belief, such act is unacceptable

 

And for no real reason either, just because some bats-in-the-belfry cultist suggested it. You don't gain anything by desecrating the ashes, but you can gain a great deal by preserving them.

[Shadow Fox]

Fine, but "no better than the darkspawn" is still a bit of a stretch.

Not really considering they deface the corpses they've made out of maliciousness as well. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Not really considering they deface the corpses they've made out of maliciousness as well. 

The darkspawn are the freaking apocalypse. They reproduce through rape and literally poison everything they touch. Defiling the corpses of their enemies is not their biggest failing by a long shot.

[Toasted Llama]

The darkspawn are the freaking apocalypse. They reproduce through rape and literally poison everything they touch. Defiling the corpses of their enemies is not their biggest failing by a long shot.

I'd like to argue that, in the eyes of the Chantry, by defiling the remains of the most important figure/person of the religion that actually lived and many, MANY, MANY people look up to, but whose remains have never been found and always been shrouded in mystery, you're doing something that can be seen as apocalyptic to many.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'd like to argue that, in the eyes of the Chantry, by defiling the remains of the most important figure/person of the religion that actually lived and many, MANY, MANY people look up to, but whose remains have never been found and always been shrouded in mystery, you're doing something that can be seen as apocalyptic to many.

Those people really don't have a sense of proportion.

[fhs33721]

Well of course she is angry. She is a religious person and you just defiled the ashes of her religions saviour. A real life example would be if you find the grave of Jesus and then decided to use it in order to store the dung for your roses in it. You'd be hated by a lot of people and probably wouldn't survive long.

 

But since not all people are religious, let me make an analogy most gamers should identify with. Would you not be seriously enraged if someone just broke into your house and defecated all over your gaming rig?

That is how relgious people feel if you poor dragon blood in their saviours ashes.

[BigEvil]

Defiling someone tomb is disrespectful and immoral...not only the tomb here but corrupting the ashes of a long dead woman. No matter what our belief, such act is unacceptable

 

If i am Wynne I will leave the party and curse them

 

Does that mean your Warden(s) never loot the various sarcophogi throughout the game's dungeons or the elven tomb where one of the juggernaut armour pieces is?

[Jaison1986]

Well of course she is angry. She is a religious person and you just defiled the ashes of her religions saviour. A real life example would be if you find the grave of Jesus and then decided to use it in order to store the dung for your roses in it. You'd be hated by a lot of people and probably wouldn't survive long.

 

But since not all people are religious, let me make an analogy most gamers should identify with. Would you not be seriously enraged if someone just broke into your house and defecated all over your gaming rig?

That is how relgious people feel if you poor dragon blood in their saviours ashes.

 

I would be pissed but I wouldn't resort to outright murder. That's the problem with Wynne. She thinks an object is more important then an living person.

[David]

I would be pissed but I wouldn't resort to outright murder. That's the problem with Wynne. She thinks an object is more important then an living person.

 

The analogy that person gave was a terrible one. You can simply go and buy a new gaming system.

 

I'm not religious...but if I had the ashes of a loved one in my house...and someone purposely defiled them...I'm not sure how I would react...but chances are I would probably want to kill that person.