46 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Fox]

I would be pissed but I wouldn't resort to outright murder. That's the problem with Wynne. She thinks an object is more important then an living person.

Or she finally sees you're just a douche who would deface a person's remains for the evulz.

[Jaison1986]

Or she finally sees you're just a douche who would deface a person's remains for the evulz.

 

Right, and she is totally not an fool to show such devotion to an religion that led not only to her life imprisionment on the tower but for them to also steal her baby. No big deal. Noting that before her are the ashes of the very person that instigated all this BS to happen to her. But sadly, Wynne limited inteligence does not allow her to realize that. 

[Corker]

Does that mean your Warden(s) never loot the various sarcophogi throughout the game's dungeons or the elven tomb where one of the juggernaut armour pieces is?

 

My duster didn't touch any of the sarcophagi in Bownammar, because the Legion were the only people who'd treat the casteless like people.

 

And my Dalish scrounged or bought every Dalish item available and either used them or resold them to Varathorn.  And she destroyed all darkspawn loot, even the cool stuff, since it was tainted.

 

(Almost four years on the forums has taught me: just about any rhetorical question you ask, someone will have a contrary answer.)

[Stag]

Right, and she is totally not an fool to show such devotion to an religion that led not only to her life imprisionment on the tower but for them to also steal her baby. No big deal. Noting that before her are the ashes of the very person that instigated all this BS to happen to her. But sadly, Wynne limited inteligence does not allow her to realize that. 

Insulting the intelligence of a Senior Enchanter/Mage Fraternity Representative doesn't do your argument any justice.

 

The Darkspawn defile everything they touch, yes, and unchecked they would defile every last corner of Thedas and leave it a blackened and dessicated husk. With that said, what better is a Warden who would defile the holiest relic in human religion- and a relic capable of curing otherwise fatal ailments (and who knows WHAT else)? From a Warden's POV, it's entirely possible that your reasoning follows the line of "the ends justify the means". The strength you draw from becoming a reaver may be, in the Warden's eyes, necessary to end the Blight. However, Wynne's perspective on the issue is and will almost always be that it's our (your?) humanity and the compassion and respect that comes from being a human(oid) being that differentiates the people fighting the Darkspawn from the Darkspawn they fight.

 

Also, bear in mind that a Warden who defiles the ashes unlocks the ability to become a Reaver, warriors who devour the souls of their enemies from their corpses (amongst other ridiculously evil things). Even beyond the religious reasoning, I can think of more than a few reasons someone might be a little unhappy if you came back to camp and said, "yo, I totally poured some dragon blood into the most potent holy relic of our time, also I can teach y'all how to eat the corpses of your enemies for strength".

 

And lastly, keep in mind that the spirit keeping Wynne running in Origins is a spirit of Faith of all things. I feel like, maybe, somehow, that may factor in...

[Shadow Fox]

Right, and she is totally not an fool to show such devotion to an religion that led not only to her life imprisionment on the tower but for them to also steal her baby. No big deal. Noting that before her are the ashes of the very person that instigated all this BS to happen to her. But sadly, Wynne limited inteligence does not allow her to realize that. 

By that logic Jesus is to blame for the Crusades and Salem Witch Trials*and I dare you to tell a devout Christian that to their face* And your unwarranted arrogance leaves you incapable or unwilling to accept a view that doesn't match yours it seems

[Jaison1986]

By that logic Jesus is to blame for the Crusades and Salem Witch Trials*and I dare you to tell a devout Christian that to their face* And your unwarranted arrogance leaves you incapable or unwilling to accept a view that doesn't match yours it seems

 

Oh, wow, really, and should I accept your mindless little logic just because you tell me to? You are no different. You also are set in an unwarranted arrogance that I suck because I don't agree with you. I at least think for myself, but you? That remains to be seen.

[Shadow Fox]

Oh, wow, really, and should I accept your mindless little logic just because you tell me to? You are no different. You also are set in an unwarranted arrogance that I suck because I don't agree with you. I at least think for myself, but you? That remains to be seen.

Did I belittle your intelligence like you've done to both Wynne and Alistair*and by extension people who share their views* for simply disagreeing with you?

 

Believing you are a "free thinker" and others are "sheep" while snidely belittling and dismissing others' views is a sure sign of arrogance*and hypocrisy* just so you know.

[Jaison1986]

Did I belittle your intelligence like you've done to both Wynne and Alistair*and by extension people who share their views* for simply disagreeing with you?

 

Believing you are a "free thinker" and others are "sheep" while snidely belittling and dismissing others' views is a sure sign of arrogance*and hypocrisy* just so you know.

 

I would rather see this argument end here because I don't want to see the thread being closed because we are exchanging insults, but so for you to know I didn't belitte the inteligence of the posters (perhaps I did for you, but I have too much disdain for your person to even care), and actually looking back, you are the only person I argued with, so maybe you are just too butthurt that I dared not think the same way as you (oh the irony). What I did was give my argument as for why I think these characters are wrong. Sorry if I'm not convenient for you, but I won't stop thinking this way just because I'm hurting your feelings. And that's why I'm done with you here and now. You can keep yelling at me as much as you want, but don't expect me to return the courtesy anymore.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

By that logic Jesus is to blame for the Crusades and Salem Witch Trials*and I dare you to tell a devout Christian that to their face* And your unwarranted arrogance leaves you incapable or unwilling to accept a view that doesn't match yours it seems

I don't think that works. The argument isn't that Andraste is to blame for the Exalted Marches, it's that the Chantry isn't worthy of affection due to their role in them.

 

Edit: Never mind, didn't read the whole post that this responded to. Yes, this logic works.

[Cobra's_back]

I personally don’t like Wynne. She is totally okay with the Chantry enslaving the mages and the Chantry stealing mage’s children. She told Alistair that the chantry doesn’t want mages to marry.

 

Having said this I still would never defile someone’s ashes. 

[BigEvil]

 

My duster didn't touch any of the sarcophagi in Bownammar, because the Legion were the only people who'd treat the casteless like people.

 

And my Dalish scrounged or bought every Dalish item available and either used them or resold them to Varathorn.  And she destroyed all darkspawn loot, even the cool stuff, since it was tainted.

 

(Almost four years on the forums has taught me: just about any rhetorical question you ask, someone will have a contrary answer.)

 

It wasn't a rhetorical question, I actually was wondering.

[Ob3rah]

With my female Dalish Elf, it kind of sucks that I have to "prove" myself worthy to see Andraste's ashes when my character doesn't even believe in the Chantry's Maker, but after giving it some more thought; if my character truly doesn't believe in the Chantry's Maker, then what's the harm of playing along and "proving" herself? The bigger picture here is saving Arl Eamon, so if I could, I'd have my character roll her eyes while proceeding. As far as Wynne; I don't think I've ever gravely upset her. I think she's tolerable for an opinionated person.

[fhs33721]

The analogy that person gave was a terrible one. You can simply go and buy a new gaming system.

 

I'm not religious...but if I had the ashes of a loved one in my house...and someone purposely defiled them...I'm not sure how I would react...but chances are I would probably want to kill that person.

 

The analogy wasn't meant to be serious at all. I was just unsuccessfully trying to be sarcastic over the internet. Sorry.

 

 

I would be pissed but I wouldn't resort to outright murder. That's the problem with Wynne. She thinks an object is more important then an living person.

 When does she resort to outright murder? She just tells your Warden that s/he is an *ss and leaves, because she doesn't want to have anything to do with an person that defiles sacred objects for no logical reason.

[Shadow Fox]

I would rather see this argument end here because I don't want to see the thread being closed because we are exchanging insults, but so for you to know I didn't belitte the inteligence of the posters (perhaps I did for you, but I have too much disdain for your person to even care), and actually looking back, you are the only person I argued with, so maybe you are just too butthurt that I dared not think the same way as you (oh the irony). What I did was give my argument as for why I think these characters are wrong. Sorry if I'm not convenient for you, but I won't stop thinking this way just because I'm hurting your feelings. And that's why I'm done with you here and now. You can keep yelling at me as much as you want, but don't expect me to return the courtesy anymore.

Well thanks for proving me right...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

 When does she resort to outright murder? She just tells your Warden that s/he is an *ss and leaves, because she doesn't want to have anything to do with an person that defiles sacred objects for no logical reason.

 

That's if she's not present at the defiling. If she watches you do this, she flips out and tries to kill you. Leiliana probably will too under the same circumstances, but you're able to scare her back into line if you have three points in Coercion and she's hardened. And this doesn't end the romance, either. Also as to Wynne: if you don't recruit her until after you defile the Ashes, she apparently never learns what you did. (Wynne never learning what happened and Leiliana still letting the Warden jump her bones are probably dev oversights and I don't know that I'll be able to import these exact circumstances into the Keep, but there you go.)

[Lulupab]

I always recruit Wynne after urn of sacred ashes mission. If you refuse her initial offer to join you can always go to circle and ask her to join you again, she is not going anywhere.

 

Defile the ashes and recruit her after that. Simple.

[Lulupab]

And you honestly believe that? Just look at Thedas history. Stopping the blight was not the only thing Wardens did.

[caradoc2000]

Stopping the blight was not the only thing Wardens did.

Still, what would be the point of defiling the ashes?

[Lulupab]

Still, what would be the point of defiling the ashes?

Any point the players comes up with. Its a decision and it fully transfers to DA2, not on a large scale but it does (check wiki). Meaning saving ashes is not canon.

 

I did defile the ashes in many of my playthroughs, intimidated Leliana and recruited Wynne later. I had many reasons, like being an Atheist protagonist or being anti-chantry.

 

Not everyone wants to be the good guy in video games. I practice law for living and I don't want to be lawful in games, its boring. I want to be the bad girl beside Anders. No actual person is getting hurt and why not! Its fun to be a rebellious mage in a video game. I find defiling ashes to be a justified option to have in the game and I was happy your decision is saved and not overridden by Bioware canon.

[Mike3207]

It all comes down to-do you think the Reaver specialization is worth it? It's a decent specialization, and Frightening Appearance does improve Taunt. The thing of it is-there are better warrior specializations, at least IMO. Templar gives you spell immunity, and Champion gives some very good party buffs, along with a War Cry knockdown. I did it once to get the specialization and the achievement, but I really haven't tried that path much since.

[Shadow Fox]

Any point the players comes up with. Its a decision and it fully transfers to DA2, not on a large scale but it does (check wiki). Meaning saving ashes is not canon.

 

I did defile the ashes in many of my playthroughs, intimidated Leliana and recruited Wynne later. I had many reasons, like being an Atheist protagonist or being anti-chantry.

 

Not everyone wants to be the good guy in video games. I practice law for living and I don't want to be lawful in games, its boring. I want to be the bad girl beside Anders. No actual person is getting hurt and why not! Its fun to be a rebellious mage in a video game. I find defiling ashes to be a justified option to have in the game and I was happy your decision is saved and not overridden by Bioware canon.

No offense intended and I'm not singling you out here but it always irritates me a tad when people justify desecrating a woman's remains to "stick it" to religion ignoring that the Chantry wouldn't even know what you did it just seems petty to me.

 

Still as you say it's a video game,no one's getting hurt and you are free to play as you wish and yes having "bad guy" options is justified as not everyone wants to be a good guy.

 

My issue is however some people treating defiling the urn as a good thing because of their issues with religion and getting upset that Leliana and Wynne don't agree and then bash them for it.

[Jack Druthers]

There is a way to defile and have no bs from Wynne at all.  Has anyone tried defiling the ashes before going to Redcliffe for the Final Onslaught? She can't say anything if you don't go back to camp! Admittedly,  you don't get the Reaver specialization, but it feels pretty satisfying.