509 réponses à ce sujet

[J.C. Blade]

I will start and say that I actually did like the initial idea of Hawke being just one poor soul who just happened to find themselves in the thick of things, from where said things escalated. Had realization of that idea gone better, the game wouldn’t have felt like such a disappointment.

 

Content, and lack thereof was another problem. DAO had meat on its bones, and I didn't feel the need to buy DLC (unless you were feeling like experiencing the world more) because the game was chockfull of content, quests, people to talk to, places to explore... In DA2 I felt like things are missing, like there should be more story. I was told it gets better, even combat got better, with the DLC but I still didn’t get any.

 

But beyond the problem reused environments and mind-numbing combat, I didn't like the how Bioware predefined and forced Hawke's personality on the player. And unless you like to roleplay the kind of person Hawke is, you might as well hang the game on the wall like a used coat.

 

Yes, Hawke has a preset personality only with 3 variations to it. Hawke is an extrovert, people person, confidant, self-assured, lazy, leader of the group, shies away from all responsibility unless it’s towards their family or they’re pressured into it, easily makes friends, has no ambition (which is why the purple Hawke works so well in the game)… I mean, the writers have decided for you that Hawke prefers the Hanged Man to going to fancy parties. Why?

 

The game has decided Hawke’s attitude towards their family – they love their little sister (whom I couldn’t stand) and they’re on the war path with their little brother (whom I liked as a character). Hawke will do never backtalk to their mother, which I can understand to a degree, even if the woman hadn’t said a single smart thing throughout the game, and they will mock/threaten Gamlen with whom I sympathized with… The game has decided for you that Hawke wants to stay in Kirkwall because Hawke said they want to stay, so headcanon your way around that! Though, I presume their decision to stay was because of newfound friendship with the gang. Tough luck if the player doesn't like them.

 

And this happened to me through the entire game. Things regarding Hawke’s personality being decided for me.

 

It is decided in the game with no input from you beyond the fact that you’ve “recruited them”, that your party members are your best friends from here on! And rivalry is a form of friendship, they are still willing to put their lives in danger at your command. Why else would they fight for Hawke, visit their house, go into demon/undead/darkspawn/abomination infested lair and generally stick around Hawke for 7-10 years if they didn’t form some kind bond? And if you as a player can’t stand said group of people, which I didn’t, any of them – bye bye roleplay. I actively had to sabotage my gameplay to keep the friendship/rivalry bar neutral because I wanted to play as a Hawke who wanted nothing to do with these crazy people.

 

I felt that with Hawke, the writers have given me a bucket of traits (and that was a big bucket of all the traits I personally didn’t like) and told me: “Here. Build your character around that. You have roughly 30% left to fill up.” And all I had left to fill that bucket were excuses as to why Hawke I wanted to play as, was doing the things they did and acted the way they did.

 

All of this is personal preference, I know, but it is still the reason why the game is unplayable to me. And why I find DAO superior.

[AlanC9]

Content, and lack thereof was another problem. DAO had meat on its bones, and I didn't feel the need to buy DLC (unless you were feeling like experiencing the world more) because the game was chockfull of content, quests, people to talk to, places to explore... In DA2 I felt like things are missing, like there should be more story. I was told it gets better, even combat got better, with the DLC but I still didn’t get any.

I'm not quite sure what this means except that DA2 was a bit shorter than DAO. It's true, but is it significant?
 

The game has decided Hawke’s attitude towards their family – they love their little sister (whom I couldn’t stand) and they’re on the war path with their little brother (whom I liked as a character).

Hmm. My recollection is that it's usually Carver driving his interactions with Hawke down a negative path, while Bethany's less antagonistic so things go better with her.

[J.C. Blade]

I'm not quite sure what this means except that DA2 was a bit shorter than DAO. It's true, but is it significant?

 
Hmmm, how should I explain it? Think of all the NPCs in DAO with whom you could talk to but they had no quests attached to them. That woman from Orlais in Denerim market who speaks of chevaliers. The storyteller in Dalish camp. Haren and Wade. The guard captain in Denerim market, as well. The nutty mage in Circle tower, Orzammar... Just think of all NPCs you can simply talk to. I would spend hours running around clicking on various NPCs just to see what they have to say about the world. It would also help me make decisions later in the game.

 

And the way some areas were designed told you a lot about people/culture/events happening. The apprentice quarters being rows of bunk beds and how that would reflect on my mage, Circle tower getting progressively more "meaty" as you climbed on, ruins in Bracelian Forest being entangled in old roots, actual dragon hoard in the ruins...
 

Hmm. My recollection is that it's usually Carver driving his interactions with Hawke down a negative path, while Bethany's less antagonistic so things go better with her.

 
Yes, but the game has decided that for you. No matter what, Carver is antagonistic towards Hawke and while I can understand that, it also implies that Hawke did nothing to repair the relationship or that they gave up after a while and player is forced to play along with it until they reach Kirkwall where they can, maybe salvage the family bond. And as far as Bethany is concerned, that doesn't help if, say, you want to play as a mage who loves magic and vehemently disagrees with Bethany who is fearful and cautious of it. It would imply that she meekly puts up with Hawke who is rude and antagonistic towards her, much the same way Hawke puts up with Carver.

 

Again, the game has made a decision for you:

Bethany is a sweet, loving girl whom everybody loves and want to protect. Hawke included.

Carver is a pompous little ass whom everyone picks on. Hawke included.

[Elite Midget]

Well, Carver has a huge inferiority complex. Some of the letters you receive help explain it better since when they were younger everyone at Lothering loved Hawke and even a girl that Carver seemed interested in was only into Hawke. So Carver was always the "Third Wheel" while Hawke was so awesome and took control of situations. After Malcolm died it was also Hawke that took control with their mother's support, Leandra overrules Craver and Bethany in favor of Hawke at the start, for example.

 

Than there's Merril having a huge fascination with Hawke and not noticing how much Carver is in love with her. Seems like no matter what he does he's always going to be second best and that's something Carver doesn't seem to be willing to accept.

 

Bethany on the other hand was HIGHLY sheltered due to her magic and always sat on the sidelines while Hawke and Carver got to be their father's little soldiers and have fun. So naturally she was more passive as she was taught to control herself, stay hidden, and not to cause trouble for anyone. Such as when she's taken by the Templars she doesn't resist as she wants to prevent any trouble or harm from occurring to her family.

 

It also explains why being a Grey Warden was such a huge culture shock to Bethany, the sheltered Mage, as she suddenly had to do a lot for herself, big decisions that involve life and death were now thrust upon her(as is for all Grey Wardens), had to go on forced expeditions into the Deep Roads, and was separated by a great deal of distance from her family. At least if she goes to the Circle she willingly goes into Templar custody while she had no say in the Grey Warden stuff.

 

While Carver sees being part of the Grey Wardens as a chance to be something great and do things that Hawke cannot do or even know about. It gives more far more purpose than if he goes to the Templars for sure. 

[J.C. Blade]

What you say is true but only works for rouge and warrior Hawke-s. For the record, I only ever played as mage and female in DA2 so Bethany who is supposedly sheltered because of her magical talent doesn't even register in my mind; and also Carver wouldn't have anything to be jealous about except there being another mage the family would have to hide. To me, or the Hawke I want to play as, LOVES magic. She could do it all day and night, use it to finish housework, levitate stuff to kitchen table, warm bath water... Fun stuff! So yes, my Hawke would be on the severe war path with Bethany. But again, that's the Hawke I want to play as, not the Hawke I am allowed in game.

And I perfectly understand why Bethany and Carver are the way they are, and how they develop depending on the path they end up in Act 3. That is not the issue I have with the game. Bethany and Carver are NPCs, and I have no influence on them. My problem is with Hawke and thus:
- Why is Hawke the one to take charge of the family? What makes them capable enough to do so, beyond them being the eldest and thus obliged? What excuse I have to make for it to be plausible?
- Why makes Hawke so "cool" that Merril has to be fascinated by them and Carver has to be jealous of them?

This "awesome" part is forced on Hawke's personality. You do not get to roleplay Hawke as growing to become awesome through deeds and decisions, Hawke just IS awesome from the getgo, even when they fail, and you as a player do not get any say in it. I’m supposed to go through the game with this character but I don’t have the understanding of what makes Hawke so… so larger than life. Except their ability to crubstomp their way through everything alive or undead, and kill hundreds of people. This doesn’t make a person awesome – it makes them a genocidal freak. Varric even lampshades that.

Again, these are merely my preferences showing. The game is written the way it is, for the exclusive character of Hawke. And this is where it fails for me.

[Aaleel]

I didn't think it was bad compared to DA:O, I just thought it was bad and poorly implemented all around.

- it was too static and stale. If you going to be stuck in one city all game it should have been interactive and bustling. You should have been able to do things in Act 1 that bore fruit in the city in Act 2 or 3. Start a business int he city, ripen across a kid you saved all grown up, just some little things. And change the city over the ten years for goodness sake.

- they have you a family and never allowed you to get close with them, or do much with them. One died before they spoke more than ten lines of dialogue and was a result of the class you chose to play. Really? Then the other moments just made no sense at all. Bethany if a grey warden arrives magically in the middle of chaos twice. Deep roads are days, weeks, who knows how many months journey from Kirkwall but on two occasions through clairvoyance she just knew when to leave to arrive in the city at just the right time. You needed a grey warden and a map to find the deep roads, but a group of rogue mages finds the deep roads kidnaps your sister and escape from the grey wardens. It was just nonsense.

- the reused areas and the lack of any exploration or discovery. If you're going to keep people in the same city all game you can't keep sending them to the same place when they have a chance to leave.

- enemies falling out the sky and through ceilings. No sense of strategy in a battle because enemies and reinforcements didn't come from logical areas and directions they just dropped in from anywhere, and them half of them had reduced health bars and were just fodder to extend the length of fights. There was also a lack of variety in enemies.

- choices. I don't mind some things being predetermined, but I'd rather they just made things happen out of our control rather than constantly giving me choice A & B with leading to result C. The ending choice just sticks in my craw because of how nonsensical the results were.

- the games spanned ten years but we were told most of the events of our story than we were allowed to play. Huge first act would have been much better if the random quests were how Hawke earns his/her name, and caught the eye of Varric, etc. instead the first act was just random quests for a goal that could be overridden by one quest with no consequence. So what as the point of having that be the goal and the story?

- why did these people stay with Hawke? It wasn't like Origins where they stayed with the warden because his mission had to succeed or the land died. It was a point where you barely knew Fenris, took a. Slave right in front of him and he kept following you even though that went against everything he believed in.

- Andres and Merrill made no sense. Anders based on the events of the previous games and other Bioware written works could not have been in Kirkwall under the time frame they have him there, just not possible. Merrill was a no nonsense this is how things need to be done for us to survive elf. In DA2 she has become a naive to the point that it seems like she doesn't know they're dangers in the world. At one point Varric implies he's paying for her protection because she goes out through the alleys of Kirkwall at night thinking the city is totally safe.

There's more but hopefully that's enough to show it's not about DA:O or being an old school gamer, but the that the game just failed on what it was trying to do in a lot of cases.

[Sidney]

I will start and say that I actually did like the initial idea of Hawke being just one poor soul who just happened to find themselves in the thick of things, from where said things escalated. Had realization of that idea gone better, the game wouldn’t have felt like such a disappointment.

 

Content, and lack thereof was another problem. DAO had meat on its bones, and I didn't feel the need to buy DLC (unless you were feeling like experiencing the world more) because the game was chockfull of content, quests, people to talk to, places to explore... In DA2 I felt like things are missing, like there should be more story. I was told it gets better, even combat got better, with the DLC but I still didn’t get any.

 

But beyond the problem reused environments and mind-numbing combat, I didn't like the how Bioware predefined and forced Hawke's personality on the player. And unless you like to roleplay the kind of person Hawke is, you might as well hang the game on the wall like a used coat.

 

Yes, Hawke has a preset personality only with 3 variations to it. Hawke is an extrovert, people person, confidant, self-assured, lazy, leader of the group, shies away from all responsibility unless it’s towards their family or they’re pressured into it, easily makes friends, has no ambition (which is why the purple Hawke works so well in the game)… I mean, the writers have decided for you that Hawke prefers the Hanged Man to going to fancy parties. Why?

 

The game has decided Hawke’s attitude towards their family – they love their little sister (whom I couldn’t stand) and they’re on the war path with their little brother (whom I liked as a character). Hawke will do never backtalk to their mother, which I can understand to a degree, even if the woman hadn’t said a single smart thing throughout the game, and they will mock/threaten Gamlen with whom I sympathized with… The game has decided for you that Hawke wants to stay in Kirkwall because Hawke said they want to stay, so headcanon your way around that! Though, I presume their decision to stay was because of newfound friendship with the gang. Tough luck if the player doesn't like them.

 

And this happened to me through the entire game. Things regarding Hawke’s personality being decided for me.

 

It is decided in the game with no input from you beyond the fact that you’ve “recruited them”, that your party members are your best friends from here on! And rivalry is a form of friendship, they are still willing to put their lives in danger at your command. Why else would they fight for Hawke, visit their house, go into demon/undead/darkspawn/abomination infested lair and generally stick around Hawke for 7-10 years if they didn’t form some kind bond? And if you as a player can’t stand said group of people, which I didn’t, any of them – bye bye roleplay. I actively had to sabotage my gameplay to keep the friendship/rivalry bar neutral because I wanted to play as a Hawke who wanted nothing to do with these crazy people.

 

I felt that with Hawke, the writers have given me a bucket of traits (and that was a big bucket of all the traits I personally didn’t like) and told me: “Here. Build your character around that. You have roughly 30% left to fill up.” And all I had left to fill that bucket were excuses as to why Hawke I wanted to play as, was doing the things they did and acted the way they did.

 

All of this is personal preference, I know, but it is still the reason why the game is unplayable to me. And why I find DAO superior.

 

You seem very set on how you want to play but frankly you must have happened to want to play your Warden a particular way because my way would have been to urinate all over Duncan and the whole Grey Warden lying, murdering BS of an organization. Instead I get to lead the way for them. F' em I'm outta here and looking for a cure with Morrigan. Can't do it. Want to throw in with Loghain because frankly the former king was an annoying man-child and there was no reason to throw away the remants of the Ferelden army in a suicidal attack? Nope, sorry got to ally with the grossly ineffectual leader of Redcliffe.

 

Most of this is frankly just the raw limits of a cRPG

 

Game in DA has decided nothing. I angered Bethany, was cordial with Carver. Carver has issues with you but that is because Carver isn't an empty vessel who, like the DAO companies, has no opinion of his own other than what you "give" them. I certainly "backtalked" mother some and was nice to Gamelin in some playthroughs- the latter being tough because he is a weasel.

 

Hawke likes the hanged man over fancy parties...and the Warden can choose to go to fancy parties instead of cruising the Pearl?

 

You can dimiss allies just like in DAO and in DAO they also, other than Allistar and Morrigan, have no real reason to be with you other than a handful of contrivances.  I mean Zev staying with you borders on insane, Shale shouldn't care and doesn't really. Wynn I can blood magic it up all the time and there she is. Diss the maker 9 ways to sundown, hey, how are you doing Leliana, still with me....YES!!!!

 

In any game with a plot you sort of have to roll with the plot and "give" the game what it wants to be.

[Creator Limbs]

People think DA2 is bad because they are plebs.

[dekarserverbot]

... but games have gotten a lot better since then.

are you kidding me? what aside customization got better? games nowadays are ubber easy, everyone is wolverine, you have infinite lives and can save wherever you want! that's not better, way worse, games nowadays try to emulate art with putrid and boring results... not realizing that what makes a game a piece of art is being (actually) a masterpiece game.

Even if script is as cheap as DAO (like in FFVI), or as awesome as Saints Row 2 the experience is what counts, not a meaning or an artistic deep though that's BAD. And i felt that DA2 pointed to the later: tried to be to artsy that failed as game

[J.C. Blade]

You seem very set on how you want to play but frankly you must have happened to want to play your Warden a particular way because my way would have been to urinate all over Duncan and the whole Grey Warden lying, murdering BS of an organization. Instead I get to lead the way for them. F' em I'm outta here and looking for a cure with Morrigan. Can't do it. Want to throw in with Loghain because frankly the former king was an annoying man-child and there was no reason to throw away the remants of the Ferelden army in a suicidal attack? Nope, sorry got to ally with the grossly ineffectual leader of Redcliffe.
 
Most of this is frankly just the raw limits of a cRPG

I do not deny that DAO also likes to have its Warden somewhat set but it allowed for wiggle room. And with no voiced protagonist, that wiggle room can be as large as you make it to be.

As for Hawke, I suppose I do not like roleplaying extroverts and I lucked-out here. Hawke is as big of an extrovert and people person as you can get. Had they been a fully predefined protagonist, I wouldn’t have had a problem and would treat DA2 the same as, say, an adventure game like Uncharted or LoK. But since it demands my participation in what little roleplay there is… Again, this is my problem with the game’s writing.

DAO allowed me to play a misanthropic, flat-toned elf. She wasn’t friendly to anyone, they didn’t spill out their life stories to her, they worked well together, they stopped the Blight, afterwards each went their own way (some died). No forced friendship, unnecessary companionship, or other mambo-jumbo. Sure, I missed dialogue, quests and character growth, romances but I got to roleplay the Warden as I wanted to. Ok, I admit, I did get lucky there.

Would it be nice to run away from the wardens? Tell everyone you don’t care what happens? Yes! I remember back in the day that some NWN player modules allowed for deviating from the game and getting “the end” for choosing to say “to hell with it all!”, you don’t play the game but at least your character would be out of the woods.
 

Game in DA has decided nothing. I angered Bethany, was cordial with Carver. Carver has issues with you but that is because Carver isn't an empty vessel who, like the DAO companies, has no opinion of his own other than what you "give" them. I certainly "backtalked" mother some and was nice to Gamelin in some playthroughs- the latter being tough because he is a weasel.
 
You can dimiss allies just like in DAO and in DAO they also, other than Allistar and Morrigan, have no real reason to be with you other than a handful of contrivances.  I mean Zev staying with you borders on insane, Shale shouldn't care and doesn't really. Wynn I can blood magic it up all the time and there she is. Diss the maker 9 ways to sundown, hey, how are you doing Leliana, still with me....YES!!!!
 
In any game with a plot you sort of have to roll with the plot and "give" the game what it wants to be.

I would like to say the biggest difference between DAO and DA2 in terms of party is the urgency. In DAO there is an ongoing Blight, and you are the only one of two remaining wardens in the entire country with treaties to make an army in hand, and some of the people who join you are there because they wish to stop it and come hell or high water, the warden being a miserable scumbag wasn’t going to deter them; others, like Shale have nothing better to do, and yet others, like Morrigan who has her own agenda, or Zevran who is waiting to see how the situation pans out, on which side the coin would land, so he can decide whether to kill you or not. But at least the story tires to make sense as to why these people are standing by the warden, and why the plot is laid out the way it is. And judging by the amount of “disapprove” I got in the game, I wouldn’t call them empty vessels. They certainly didn’t like my Wardens when their opinions clashed. And I’ll repeat, they disliked my warden, they didn’t go down the rivalry path of “we don’t see eye to eye thing but we're still there for you."

Why do Varric and the others stay at Hawke’s back and call? Why do any of these people stick with Hawke for a decade? Hawke helps them with one quest and suddenly they have their eternal devotion? Yeah, I know, game mechanics but sorry, that doesn’t fly for me when the story length spans 10 years. Female Hawke can give birth and raise at least three children during that time.
 

Hawke likes the hanged man over fancy parties...and the Warden can choose to go to fancy parties instead of cruising the Pearl?

Not sure if I understand the question. My point is that DAO decided nothing, nothing, regarding any of my Wardens personality, likes and dislikes (beyond the fact that they had to become a warden). DA2 outright states things about Hawke. Just listen to their dialogue and tell me the game wasn’t intended to have the entire group as one big family of misfits, with Hawke as an eldest sibling who would lead the entire group to glory, ale and adventure.

I can roll with the plot, but I find it difficult to roll with the game that wants to do cinematic experience and still demands of me to headcannon 7 years worth of story to explain why these people stick together.

[Jukaga]

I will start and say that I actually did like the initial idea of Hawke being just one poor soul who just happened to find themselves in the thick of things, from where said things escalated. Had realization of that idea gone better, the game wouldn’t have felt like such a disappointment.

 

Content, and lack thereof was another problem. DAO had meat on its bones, and I didn't feel the need to buy DLC (unless you were feeling like experiencing the world more) because the game was chockfull of content, quests, people to talk to, places to explore... In DA2 I felt like things are missing, like there should be more story. I was told it gets better, even combat got better, with the DLC but I still didn’t get any.

 

But beyond the problem reused environments and mind-numbing combat, I didn't like the how Bioware predefined and forced Hawke's personality on the player. And unless you like to roleplay the kind of person Hawke is, you might as well hang the game on the wall like a used coat.

 

Yes, Hawke has a preset personality only with 3 variations to it. Hawke is an extrovert, people person, confidant, self-assured, lazy, leader of the group, shies away from all responsibility unless it’s towards their family or they’re pressured into it, easily makes friends, has no ambition (which is why the purple Hawke works so well in the game)… I mean, the writers have decided for you that Hawke prefers the Hanged Man to going to fancy parties. Why?

 

The game has decided Hawke’s attitude towards their family – they love their little sister (whom I couldn’t stand) and they’re on the war path with their little brother (whom I liked as a character). Hawke will do never backtalk to their mother, which I can understand to a degree, even if the woman hadn’t said a single smart thing throughout the game, and they will mock/threaten Gamlen with whom I sympathized with… The game has decided for you that Hawke wants to stay in Kirkwall because Hawke said they want to stay, so headcanon your way around that! Though, I presume their decision to stay was because of newfound friendship with the gang. Tough luck if the player doesn't like them.

 

And this happened to me through the entire game. Things regarding Hawke’s personality being decided for me.

 

It is decided in the game with no input from you beyond the fact that you’ve “recruited them”, that your party members are your best friends from here on! And rivalry is a form of friendship, they are still willing to put their lives in danger at your command. Why else would they fight for Hawke, visit their house, go into demon/undead/darkspawn/abomination infested lair and generally stick around Hawke for 7-10 years if they didn’t form some kind bond? And if you as a player can’t stand said group of people, which I didn’t, any of them – bye bye roleplay. I actively had to sabotage my gameplay to keep the friendship/rivalry bar neutral because I wanted to play as a Hawke who wanted nothing to do with these crazy people.

 

I felt that with Hawke, the writers have given me a bucket of traits (and that was a big bucket of all the traits I personally didn’t like) and told me: “Here. Build your character around that. You have roughly 30% left to fill up.” And all I had left to fill that bucket were excuses as to why Hawke I wanted to play as, was doing the things they did and acted the way they did.

 

All of this is personal preference, I know, but it is still the reason why the game is unplayable to me. And why I find DAO superior.

 

I know what you are saying and I don't want to invalidate your personal feelings on this game but I feel that some people don't understand that RPGs aren't always about giving unlimited agency to the player to define the character. The best stories in games are when we are given a defined character and are then able to act within realistic confines of that character in a dynamic environment. Hence the 'Role' aspect of role-playing.
 

[J.C. Blade]

I understand, and that is where personal preference comes in play. If you cannot connect with said predefined character, or the supporting cast, the writing, no matter how good (though I do not think that it is good in DA2), falls flat for such a player. I do not like Hawke as a person they’re written to be, I do not understand what is so great about Hawke that draws people to them. And so I am unable, as someone who should further define Hawke through roleplay, to give that spark of specialness that I’ve seen many, many players manage to do successfully. And I admit I am a bit envious of them that they are able to do so.

 

DAO allowed for some wiggle room with the Warden and so had allowed me to express myself.

DA2 allowed for none with Hawke and so it falls flat for me as a game.

 

But this is going off topic now, so I’ll stop.

[Lady Luminous]

After reading through this thread, I think I'm starting to better understand the story arc of DA 2 and the futileness they tried to impart.

 

Now that doesn't mean I like it any better, I like games where my choices have a clearly defined path and where agency actually matters. 

 

I still don't like the combat, lack of tactical cam, reused environments, or being forced to say something I don't want to simply because I was previously chose a bunch of ******* dialogue. But I'll give it a pass on its storyline at least. 

[Elite Midget]

Lack of Tactical Cam seemed to make the game far more stable. I gladly say goodbye to it if it means more PCs can play it as DA2 runs WAAAAAAAY better than DA:O/A by far which start facing real performance issues rather quickly due to having to render the world to allow the Tactical Cam to actually work.

 

 

are you kidding me? what aside customization got better? games nowadays are ubber easy, everyone is wolverine, you have infinite lives and can save wherever you want! that's not better, way worse, games nowadays try to emulate art with putrid and boring results... not realizing that what makes a game a piece of art is being (actually) a masterpiece game.

Even if script is as cheap as DAO (like in FFVI), or as awesome as Saints Row 2 the experience is what counts, not a meaning or an artistic deep though that's BAD. And i felt that DA2 pointed to the later: tried to be to artsy that failed as game

No, everyone isn't Wolverine because Wolverine lost his Healing Factor and is dying soon. So... Maybe, Superman/woman?

 

If that's the case the Grey Warden was the definition of Superman/woman. None of the Origins really give credence to becoming such a powerful and awesome character. There's some hints dropped for a few but they're minor, yet somehow you're a master badass at killing anything and everything as well as a supreme commander in the art of war even if you've no real leadership skills at all from the Origin.

 

The Warden, quite frankly, accomplishes a ton within only 2 years while it took Hawke 4 Years to become a Noble and become the Champion of Kirkwall!

 

Quite frankly Hawke's story and rise to power is far more realistic and understandable than the amount of hax and good luck the Grey Warden had going on for them. 

 

Hawke being a skilled fighter is even explained better than any explanation for the Warden being Super Special Awesome as Hawke and his/her siblings were trained by a VERY powerful Mage who had been avoiding the Templars for years and even worked with the Grey Wardens.

[Lady Luminous]

Lack of Tactical Cam seemed to make the game far more stable. I gladly say goodbye to it if it means more PCs can play it as DA2 runs WAAAAAAAY better than DA:O/A by far which start facing real performance issues rather quickly due to having to render the world to allow the Tactical Cam to actually work.

 

Yes, but lack of tactical cam meant facing off with monstrous spiders and not being able to zoom out, resulting in shuddering and slight sobbing for a few minutes afterwards, instead of seeing them as little red dots  zoomed out as far as humanly possible. 

[Elite Midget]

Yes, but lack of tactical cam meant facing off with monstrous spiders and not being able to zoom out, resulting in shuddering and slight sobbing for a few minutes afterwards, instead of seeing them as little red dots  zoomed out as far as humanly possible. 

Those Spiders making that sound when they suddenly appear atop of me does make be a bit skittish at times. Not gonna lie, when it's late I even reacted rather... Funnily over it.

[Lady Luminous]

Those Spiders making that sound when they suddenly appear atop of me does make be a bit skittish at times. Not gonna lie, when it's late I even reacted rather... Funnily over it.

Yep. They're horrific! 

[ObserverStatus]

Here are the reasons I liked DA:O better than DA2:

 

1. There weren't as many spells for mages to choose from, and a lot of my favorite spells got cut between the games.

2. The reused environments didn't really bother me at first, but by the time I got to the third act, there wasn't anyplace new for Hawke to go and travelling between quests felt like a boring chore.

3. Felicitate me!

4. Mages couldn't cast regeneration anymore. I really miss that spell.
5. There wasn't nearly as much content as there was in DA:O. It was about the same length, but between the reused environments and the respawning enemies, it felt a lot more padded.

6. Fighting several waves of the same type of enemy is soul crushingly boring. I realize that in theory, crawling your way through a long dungeon with lots of the same enemy like you do in DA:O should feel the same way, but when you get to move your party after slaying each group of enemies, it at least feels like you're making progress. Like it will be over eventually.

7. I can't cast mana drain anymore, why not?

8. I didn't like it that Hawke was fully voiced, this greatly limited the number of possible dialogue options due to budget constraints. This often made me feel like none of the dialogue options reflected the personality of the character I was trying to roleplay as.

9. I didn't like it that no matter what situation Hawke was in, they always had 1 nice, 1 sarcastic, and 1 mean response. This often made me feel like most of the choices Hawke had for a given situation were wildly inappropriate.

10. Sleep and horror don't work as a combo anymore, and I miss giving my enemies nightmares about clowns tying them into shopping carts naked, and pushing them around Trader Joe's.

11. Hawke never got the opportunity to bang any demons. This point isn't as important as the others, but it still made DA2 feel inferior to DA:O.

12. Most of the moral decision making that Hawke had to take part in seemed to revolve around the mage/templar conflict. This could have worked if there was more variety to the backgrounds that the player could have chosen for their character, but Hawke's father and sister were both mages. Pro-Templar Hawke just doesn't make sense to me as a character. As a result, most of the moral decisions in the game didn't really feel like choices, because if I went Pro-Templar, I wouldn't feel like I was roleplaying as a believable character. There should have either been more backgrounds to choose from, or the player should have been faced with some moral dilemmas in which more than one of the choices you can make feel like something it would be believable for Hawke to choose.

13. After I murdered Anders, I didn't have anyone to heal my party. I realize that I could have just not murdered Anders, but then Sebastian would have invaded Kirkwall and murdered thousands more. The game should have either included a character who can act as a spirit healer in place of Anders, or let the player murder Sebastian instead. Anders and Sebastian are such a-holes.

14. I want to cast Death Cloud but I can't anymore.

15. I don't really care about the mage/templar conflict, that was the boringest subplot in all of DA:O. They could have made DA2 about a war of succession in a dwarven kingdom, a war between elves and werewolves, a war between Redridge and the undead, or something in which we learn more about the fade, and any of these would have been an improvement over what we had in DA2.

[Jinglepocket]

are you kidding me? what aside customization got better? games nowadays are ubber easy, everyone is wolverine, you have infinite lives and can save wherever you want! that's not better, way worse, games nowadays try to emulate art with putrid and boring results... not realizing that what makes a game a piece of art is being (actually) a masterpiece game.

Even if script is as cheap as DAO (like in FFVI), or as awesome as Saints Row 2 the experience is what counts, not a meaning or an artistic deep though that's BAD. And i felt that DA2 pointed to the later: tried to be to artsy that failed as game

 

Of course I'm not kidding. I prefer for a game's challenge to come from actual difficulty, rather than simple frustration. Giving the player a limited number of lives is not appealing to me because being forced to restart a game is frustrating without being difficult.

 

I can forgive you for not knowing much about me, but I prefer for my entertainment to be entertaining first, and artistic second. I absolutely loved Saints Row because, as you said, it was an awesome experience. DA2 was also an awesome experience. Being artsy has nothing to do with it.

[Sidney]

After reading through this thread, I think I'm starting to better understand the story arc of DA 2 and the futileness they tried to impart.

 

Now that doesn't mean I like it any better, I like games where my choices have a clearly defined path and where agency actually matters. 

 

I still don't like the combat, lack of tactical cam, reused environments, or being forced to say something I don't want to simply because I was previously chose a bunch of ******* dialogue. But I'll give it a pass on its storyline at least. 

 

 

There is still a lot to dislike in the game even though I do like and for me it is looking past the faults to enjoy something different structurally and storywise.

 

The game was badly rushed and really almost amateurish in a lot of areas how they handled things. Truthfully, I've always felt they bit off too much. It would be one thing to bang out another DA game in 18 months. Maybe they could have done that IF they'd kept the same engine, game mechanics, skills, combat and so forth...basically made DA: Awakenings 2 but to create a new game AND do all the rework on skill trees, dialog, art and so forth was just way, way too ambitious for 18 months. It is a game I wish they'd spent an extra 6 months on because it likely would have been a much better game.

[Sidney]

Here are the reasons I liked DA:O better than DA2:

6. Fighting several waves of the same type of enemy is soul crushingly boring. I realize that in theory, crawling your way through a long dungeon with lots of the same enemy like you do in DA:O should feel the same way, but when you get to move your party after slaying each group of enemies, it at least feels like you're making progress. Like it will be over eventually.

 

7. I can't cast mana drain anymore, why not?

 

8. I didn't like it that Hawke was fully voiced, this greatly limited the number of possible dialogue options due to budget constraints. This often made me feel like none of the dialogue options reflected the personality of the character I was trying to roleplay as.

12. Most of the moral decision making that Hawke had to take part in seemed to revolve around the mage/templar conflict. This could have worked if there was more variety to the backgrounds that the player could have chosen for their character, but Hawke's father and sister were both mages. Pro-Templar Hawke just doesn't make sense to me as a character. As a result, most of the moral decisions in the game didn't really feel like choices, because if I went Pro-Templar, I wouldn't feel like I was roleplaying as a believable character. There should have either been more backgrounds to choose from, or the player should have been faced with some moral dilemmas in which more than one of the choices you can make feel like something it would be believable for Hawke to choose.

 

 

6. Waves isn't the problem, parachuting in is. Waves in some places worked wonderfully and made you realize in places like Howe's dungeon and Jarvia's hideout that everyone must be deaf not to hear the screams and sounds of battle and NOT come running. Those locations now really bother me when I replay DAO. When they drop off "roofs" or through ceilings, no that is really awful.

 

7. They took out drain and obviously clash presumably so mages couldn't be rendered impotent by a single spell - mana clash was a terrible spell for balance. Of course they then went ahead and neutrered them anyway by having them all force field themselves while you pick off their allies.

 

8. Dialog wasn't any less in terms of options with Hawke vs the Warden. Warden basically had three options in most cases that stripped of all the words were "Helpful" "Mean" and "Maybe" options. Hawke's tones just made that limited set of options more notable but it wasn't markedly less choice. Frankly since the words you selected in DAO didn't matter and behind the scenes all the computer was doing was reading you taking option 1 as the "helpful" option all they did was expose how the system thought about your dialog options.

 

12. The mage templat conflict was poorly set up. Varric voiced it as a looming struggle but you didn't see enough of it for me. Anders told you a lot about it but you needed to interact with it more in the city and not just apostates in caves. I don't agree that Hawke should be pro-mage. I played a rogue who was full on templar for most of the game and it worked. There is a conflict because Bethany is family but Hawke can easily recongize the ticking time bomb aspect to the mages. Plus, as the game points out Kirkwall is a uniquely broken circle (the Band of 3 notes elaborate) so his conflicted mage feelings can very easily turn pro-templar because the evidence of mage danger is so clear in this particular city....plus the allies of his in Anders and Merrill hardly are the best examples of "sane" mages.

[the_last_krogan]

DA:O - You were conveniently placed within the Grey Wardens and stopped the Blight and later became a Warden Commander.

DA2 - You rose from nothing to become the Champion of Kirkwall and were dragged into the start of the Templar/Mage War.

its just forgettable da2 

you start out fleeing from the blight you catch a ride with flemeth you go to kirkwall your sibling joins the grey wardens you fight the qunari you blow up a church a hot chick wants to find you thats about it 

[KaiserShep]

 I don't agree that Hawke should be pro-mage. I played a rogue who was full on templar for most of the game and it worked. There is a conflict because Bethany is family but Hawke can easily recongize the ticking time bomb aspect to the mages.

 

 

I guess it depends on one's perspective. If someone called for the death of a group that involved my sister, I'd sooner murder all of the enforcers before I permit that to happen, regardless of the risk inherent with that group. There's that, and I'm not really concerned about Meredith's reasoning that the people of Kirkwall will demand retribution, as if those backwater slobs can beat against the walls of a fortress in the middle of the water.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Having not read the whole thread, my points may well have been covered by others, but here they are anyway, make of them what you will.

1. Lack of a coherent narrative - foremost what DA2 lacks is a single overarching narrative that ties it all together. Instead of a single story we really have three only tangentially connected stories bolted together with a few hints and references here and there to tie it together. Act 1 is poor refugee makes good. Act 2 is people poke a bear (the Qunari) with sticks until it attacks. And act 3 is everyone goes mad and tries to kill each other because reasons. They tried to weave elements of the plots through the chapters, but it just feels like plot-by-committee (which it most likely was).

2. Player agency - In the end, for everything that Hawke does, the result is the same. All Hawke ends up doing is witnessing the descent of Kirkwall into collective insanity. In a book or film, this could be quite a powerful and poignant narrative (hero does everything in his power, but events are beyond even his control), but in a videogame disempowering the player is a cardinal sin. Videogames are all about the player and their actions (and RPGs even more so), so making Hawke actions and choices amount to almost nothing but window dressing was bad form.

3. Blatant recycling of art assets - The cave. Need I say more? DA2 had such a paucity of art assets and the repetitious way they were used really dented immersion and made the game less interesting (aesthetically) due to the lack of variety in the artwork. The Qunari are another example; they are such an interesting race, and they only had one model (other than the Arishok) in the whole game. That's just a really weak effort, which was probably mostly indicative of where corners were cut to ship it in such a shot turnaround time.

However, credit where credit is due, I do think that the combat in DA2 was much more engaging and fun to play than DAO's, which was pretty slow going a lot of the time. I rather enjoyed the more frenetic pace of DA2 combat.

DA2 is a decent game, we just expect a heck of a lot more from Bioware because we know they can do so much better. Fortunately, Inquisition looks like it will offer a heck of a lot more than DA2 did.

[NextArishok]

you said it yourself in the OP

 

"It's no DA:O"

 

They set the bar with that game "admittedly high"  The game that Origins is and the game that DA2 is.  IMO its pretty cut and dry.  Aside from loving the Arishok in that game......ugh.

 

If it was a random title I don't think it would have gotten flack, but as a Dragon Age game that game screamed EA rush job money grab to me. 

 

The combat in DA2 was superior though.