93 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonShepard]

Pretty much as the title says - when did the Protheans find out about the Reapers? Where in the game is it stated that they did?

I ask because the ME-wiki page on the Protheans (here) says that they knew the Reapers were coming before they arrived. Of course, the wiki is  fan-made, so that could be a mistake. But if the Protheans did know that the Reapers were coming, then it damages other aspects of the plot. The whole point of the Reaper ambush is that they sweep through the Citadel Relay with the element of surprise.


Suppose the Protheans knew that an advanced ancient race was planning to return and wipe them out. Surely someone would start viewing the advanced ancient Relays and Citadel with suspicion. How did they fall for the Reaper Citadel trap if they had even more warning than us?

Modifié par JasonShepard, 20 février 2014 - 06:55 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Presumably you can learn this in some conversation with Javik or one of the prothean VIs.

The rest of the sentence of the wiki article you linked to answers your question - the protheans deduced the existence of an advanced species from the pattern of extermination. It does not automatically follow that they knew the exact details or that they would have been able to prepare an efficient counter.

[JasonShepard]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Presumably you can learn this in some conversation with Javik or one of the prothean VIs.

I've played through ME3 more times than I can count - admittedly primarily as a Paragon. I've been watching for such a dialogue in the last few playthroughs, and I haven't seen it. It's definitely not with Vigil on Ilos. I haven't thoroughly checked all of Javik's conversations though. Vendetta does mention the Protheans detecting patterns within the cycles, but doesn't say WHEN they noticed the patterns (before or after the invasion).
(Maybe I ought to be pestering the wiki forums rather than here, but I'm more familiar with BSN.)

The rest of the sentence of the wiki article you linked to answers your question - the protheans deduced the existence of an advanced species from the pattern of extermination. It does not automatically follow that they knew the exact details or that they would have been able to prepare an efficient counter.

True enough, I guess. But still, even if they were given only a few years of warning, I'd expect someone to have guessed that the Citadel might be a trap.

There's a bigger issue here:
We have details about two cycles, our own, and that of the Protheans. (We have a few scant details about the Inusannon's cycle before the Protheans, but not enough to draw any meaningful conclusions.) If the Protheans knew that the Reapers were coming, that makes two cycles (out of two) that got forewarned about the Reapers. That makes it much more likely that other previous races got forewarned as well.

I just find it difficult to believe that the cycle lasted millions of years if the Reapers are that bad at hiding their tracks.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 20 février 2014 - 07:15 .

[Iakus]

Unless the wiki cites a specific source, I'd chalk it up to "don't believe everything you read on teh Internet"

[katamuro]

A freaking space fairy told them because of "plot" reasons.

[JasonShepard]

iakus wrote...

Unless the wiki cites a specific source, I'd chalk it up to "don't believe everything you read on teh Internet"

Wait - you mean that the world isn't flat, UFO's haven't landed, and cat does not haz cheezeburger? 

[BioWareM0d13]

I think the wiki is flat out wrong there.

I can't remember a single piece of dialogue that ever indicated the Protheans knew the Reapers were coming. In fact what little we know about their war against the Reapers suggests the opposite. After all the Reapers managed to take the Citadel in the Prothean cycle and cut the relay network, with the Prothean Empire shattered into isolated fragments that couldn't aid each other.

I think the writer confused their head canon for in-game lore, and that page is in need of an edit.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 20 février 2014 - 07:23 .

[Barquiel]

I always wondered why the protheans (or any other race) didn't build the the crucible before the reapers arrived. The Catalyst says that the Crucible design/plans/blueprints first appeared several cycles ago and were passed down from cycle to cycle....but we're supposed to believe the crucible was never finished?

I mean, our excuse is that we didn't understand the warnings because we were not evolved to the same mental capability of the Protheans. But the next cycle has no problems to understand Liara's message in the refuse ending, and they used the crucible before the reapers arrived.

[SwobyJ]

This is what it looks like:

1)They had an idea, akin to Liara's theory except more widely speculated
2)They were still roflstomped suddenly
3)They came to understanding over time, and possibly though the construction of their Crucible, that the Cycles were a thing and that similar events may have happened (in their own forms) through every galactic cycle

So yeah, they weren't warned. They were just probably a society more prepared to resist for longer than most (100s of years tops in the end maybe, instead of 10s and 1s like this cycle).

They had an understanding of things and a solidarity (empire) that surpassed this cycle's workings, but they lacked the unity of different factions that could do things like push back against the Reapers at points (for all we know, the Prothians just kept sacrificing planets in order to continue to exist), and complete the Crucible.

[AlanC9]

Liara's almost figured this out for herself before she meets Shepard. She already knows about the cycles, although since she specifically refers to this as "her" theory it's not generally accepted yet. She doesn't know that a malevolent machine intelligence did it, of course. But how many workable hypotheses are there besides some unknown race of killer aliens? Each cycle self-destructs on its own because intelligence in the long run is maladaptive? Maybe. I've heard that proposed as an answer to the Fermi paradox. There are some workable variations of the technological singularity argument too.

Let's say that you've figured out that it really  is unknown killer aliens. What do you do next? If you start building dreadnoughts the Reapers just start the harvest immediately, don't they? Blowing the Citadel is maybe a candidate, if you guess that it's a trap. (The Fall of Hyperion has a pretty close parallel to this situation.) 

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 février 2014 - 07:37 .

[JasonShepard]

Barquiel wrote...

I always wondered why the protheans (or any other race) didn't build the the crucible before the reapers arrived. The Catalyst says that the Crucible design/plans/blueprints first appeared several cycles ago and were passed down from cycle to cycle....but we're supposed to believe the crucible was never finished?

I mean, our excuse is that we didn't understand the warnings because we were not evolved to the same mental capability of the Protheans. But the next cycle has no problems to understand Liara's message in the refuse ending, and they used the crucible before the reapers arrived.

Yeah, that bugs me too. Assuming most cycles don't find out about the Reapers until the invasion, then I'd assume they found plans for the device, but didn't understand why they needed to build it.

I also assume that the Crucible plans have only been around for the last few cycles - having them survive hundreds or thousands of cycles seems a bit ridiculous. (Having them survive more than one cycle is a bit of a stretch, but that's canon, so...)

Modifié par JasonShepard, 20 février 2014 - 07:35 .

[AlanC9]

JasonShepard wrote...
Yeah, that bugs me too. Assuming most cycles don't find out about the Reapers until the invasion, then I'd assume they found plans for the device, but didn't understand why they needed to build it.

I find it hard to believe that the previous cycles were that much dumber than Liara; she explains what the plans are needed  for in her capsules. Unless they all had communication problems with the next cycle?  The problem is making something that will be found by the next cycle but won't be found by the Reapers too.

[JasonShepard]

AlanC9 wrote...

Liara's almost figured this out for herself before she meets Shepard. She already knows about the cycles, although since she specifically refers to this as "her" theory it's not generally accepted yet. She doesn't know that a malevolent machine intelligence did it, of course. But how many workable hypotheses are there besides some unknown race of killer aliens? Each cycle self-destructs on its own because intelligence in the long run is maladaptive? Maybe. I've heard that proposed as an answer to the Fermi paradox. There are some workable variations of the technological singualrity argument too.

Personally, I think most scientists would prefer the "Civilisation is inherently unstable" answer to "Killer aliens". It's a variation on Occam's Razor - if you can explain things without introducing an external force, it's a better explanation.

(Also, in a real history perspective, a lot of civilisations rose up and broke down before we, as a species, eventually pulled off the Industrial Revolution. So there is precedent for the idea that civilisations are less stable than we'd like to believe...)

You make a good point though. Suppose Liara's research AND Amanda Kenson's research became widely known. People would know that there was some form of cycle of extinction, and they would know that the Relays are far older than the Protheans. Someone might think of the "Relay Network is a Trap" explanation...

AlanC9 wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...
Yeah, that bugs me too. Assuming most cycles don't find out about the Reapers until the invasion, then I'd assume they found plans for the device, but didn't understand why they needed to build it.

I find it hard to believe that the previous cycles were that much dumber than Liara; she explains what the plans are needed  for in her capsules. Unless they all had communication problems with the next cycle?  The problem is making something that will be found by the next cycle but won't be found by the Reapers too.

Language barriers are difficult. Until the cipher and Javik came along, no-one really understood Prothean that well.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 20 février 2014 - 07:50 .

[CrutchCricket]

Barquiel wrote...
I mean, our excuse is that we didn't understand the warnings because we were not evolved to the same mental capability of the Protheans.

That's hardly an excuse. The development of a communication system that could survive 50,000 years and be understood at the end of it is (or was) a real-world concern re: nuclear dump sites. The best anyone could come up with was hidden societies keeping the message alive as superstition.

As it stands there is simply no way to ensure any form of communication can survive that long because there is no way to ensure the culture and context of that communication remains even borderline recognizable.

Really the Protheans had a leg-up on the situation with their psycho-kinetic communications and even that didn't work. Which means, as sweet as Liara's time capsule thing is, I have zero faith init working in a vacuum. Refuse is just lucky asari surive and yahg have already encountered council races.

Anyway, to the OP: I see no reason, last desparate warnings from the cycle before couldn't have been uncovered by the Protheans just as we uncovered theirs. "The cycle has repeated itself more times than you can fathom". This is part of the cycle. Everyone discovers the relays, everyone things it was the work of those that came before, everyone finds the warnings (too late), everyone gets Reaper-goo'd. Although this is all because the above concerns about long-term communication were conveniently ignored.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 20 février 2014 - 08:01 .

[AlanC9]

JasonShepard wrote...
(Also, in a real history perspective, a lot of civilisations rose up and broke down before we, as a species, eventually pulled off the Industrial Revolution. So there is precedent for the idea that civilisations are less stable than we'd like to believe...)

But there's a difference between the collapse of a civilization and outright biological extinction. Unless everybody eventually develops cheap nanotech, etc.,  and one nutjob with a grudge can exterminate intelligent life from his basement.

Language barriers are difficult. Until the cipher and Javik came along, no-one really understood Prothean that well.

To some extent, sure, especially for abstract concepts. You can do math without too much difficulty, and even circuit diagrams aren't all that hard if you start with the elements and work your way up.

Still, you think someone would notice all the cuttlefish pictures.

[AlanC9]

CrutchCricket wrote...
That's hardly an excuse. The development of a communication system that could survive 50,000 years and be understood at the end of it is (or was) a real-world concern re: nuclear dump sites. The best anyone could come up with was hidden societies keeping the message alive as superstition.

But wasn't part of the problem there that we couldn't assume the future civilization would be technological, or have scholars that could decode long, complex forms of communication? This isn't a problem for knowledge of the Reapers and the Crucible, since non-technological civilizations aren't in any danger and couldn't do anything useful anyway. 

[JasonShepard]

AlanC9 wrote...

Still, you think someone would notice all the cuttlefish pictures.

I now have the following scene in my mind:

Researcher 1: So what have we learned?
Researcher 2: Well, whoever they were, they've given us the mass relays, the Citadel, and plans for some sort of doomsday weapon.
Researcher 1: Huh. Anything else?
Researcher 2: Well we're not sure, but it looks like they really didn't like seafood.

(In all seriousness, you're right - pictograms showing the Reapers coming through the Citadel should have a decent chance of carrying the message.)

Modifié par JasonShepard, 20 février 2014 - 08:26 .

[CrutchCricket]

AlanC9 wrote...
But wasn't part of the problem there that we couldn't assume the future civilization would be technological, or have scholars that could decode long, complex forms of communication? This isn't a problem for knowledge of the Reapers and the Crucible, since non-technological civilizations aren't in any danger and couldn't do anything useful anyway.

Nope, the problem was how to convey a simple concept using symbols not dependent on context, current symbols or other culturally learned influences. It's harder than you might think.

Try to denote the concept "two" (not just two things but two) using none of the above...

It has nothing to do with tech levels. It's about the limitations of our system of communication, which is very much rooted in our perspective.

[FlyingSquirrel]

JasonShepard wrote...

iakus wrote...

Unless the wiki cites a specific source, I'd chalk it up to "don't believe everything you read on teh Internet"

Wait - you mean that the world isn't flat, UFO's haven't landed, and cat does not haz cheezeburger? 

Not only that, but "fail" still isn't technically a noun.

[Pantegana]

JasonShepard wrote...

iakus wrote...

Unless the wiki cites a specific source, I'd chalk it up to "don't believe everything you read on teh Internet"

Wait - you mean that the world isn't flat, UFO's haven't landed, and cat does not haz cheezeburger? 

I think it's safe tu assume that the protheans read on protheanpedia that the reapers were coming. That, or The Illusive Prothean told 'em.

[BeastSaver]

I was under the impression that the Protheans didn't know about the Reapers until they invaded via the Citadel (Vigil in ME). So no warning at all. Since it took 200 years for the Protheans to be eradicated, during that time there may have been scientists looking at archaeological finds that had been relegated to a dusty shelf without realizing their importance. It sounds like Javik was one of the last generations to have been born, and he had heard about a device but didn't know much about it because the empire had been shattered.

[RangerSG]

Han Shot First wrote...

I think the wiki is flat out wrong there.

I can't remember a single piece of dialogue that ever indicated the Protheans knew the Reapers were coming. In fact what little we know about their war against the Reapers suggests the opposite. After all the Reapers managed to take the Citadel in the Prothean cycle and cut the relay network, with the Prothean Empire shattered into isolated fragments that couldn't aid each other.

I think the writer confused their head canon for in-game lore, and that page is in need of an edit.

I'd agree with this. The Protheans knew the dangers of AI. They might have surmised a powerful AI lurked 'someplace' and prepared in some way for such a contest.

But Javik is quite clear they were never prepared for the scale to which the Reapers dwarfed the Protheans. Nor were they ready for the Citadel trap. If they had been, there entire government wouldn't have been destroyed in the initial attack. 

ME3 doesn't change Vigil's narrative. It only fills in the blanks from when Vigil no longer had real-time data on the invasion, until the final fall of the fractured fragments of their Empire. 

[Oni Changas]

JasonShepard wrote...

Pretty much as the title says - when did the Protheans find out about the Reapers? Where in the game is it stated that they did?

I ask because the ME-wiki page on the Protheans (here) says that they knew the Reapers were coming before they arrived. Of course, the wiki is  fan-made, so that could be a mistake. But if the Protheans did know that the Reapers were coming, then it damages other aspects of the plot. The whole point of the Reaper ambush is that they sweep through the Citadel Relay with the element of surprise.


Suppose the Protheans knew that an advanced ancient race was planning to return and wipe them out. Surely someone would start viewing the advanced ancient Relays and Citadel with suspicion. How did they fall for the Reaper Citadel trap if they had even more warning than us?

The wiki is mistaken and must be edited. Every source of Prothean intelligence tells or shows us that they were sneak attacked; as were all other cycles before. This plays into what makes Shepard and this cycle so special and anomolous.

[CrutchCricket]

I see no reason they couldn't have found warnings like we did. The warnings we found wouldn't have done us a lot of good without Protheans tampering with the Citadel. So it could've easily been the case that they too knew something was coming, but didn't have the reprieve we did and thus got the full brunt of the trap.

On the other hand, if they hadn't tampered with it, Sovereign would've sent the signal decades ago. The books make it clear it's been in the shadows for years trying to find out why the damn thing wasn't working. Which brings to mind an interesting question. Could we have missed this cycle? No tampering means the cycle starts much earlier, perhaps before we get the chance to discover the Charon relay. We might've been in the next cycle... with the yahg.

[CronoDragoon]

OniTYME wrote...
The wiki is mistaken and must be edited. Every source of Prothean intelligence tells or shows us that they were sneak attacked; as were all other cycles before. This plays into what makes Shepard and this cycle so special and anomolous.

Knowing about the Reapers doesn't mean you know when they are coming or how they will attack you.