93 réponses à ce sujet

[RangerSG]

CrutchCricket wrote...

I see no reason they couldn't have found warnings like we did. The warnings we found wouldn't have done us a lot of good without Protheans tampering with the Citadel. So it could've easily been the case that they too knew something was coming, but didn't have the reprieve we did and thus got the full brunt of the trap.

On the other hand, if they hadn't tampered with it, Sovereign would've sent the signal decades ago. The books make it clear it's been in the shadows for years trying to find out why the damn thing wasn't working. Which brings to mind an interesting question. Could we have missed this cycle? No tampering means the cycle starts much earlier, perhaps before we get the chance to discover the Charon relay. We might've been in the next cycle... with the yahg.

I actually think it likely humanity would've missed the cycle. I've always thought Sovereign ought to have signaled sometime around the end of the Krogan Rebellions. You had four space-faring civilizations controlling pretty much all the then-active relay network (Asari (w/ client Elcor), Turian (w/ client Volus), Salarian (with uplifted Krogan), Quarian were colonizing, if not a major Council race). The major organic threats had been neutralized (Rachni & Krogan). What's stopping the Reapers from seeing that as the time to harvest?

But even if it's the late 21st century, we'd still be confined to our system, unaware of the relay network, non-FTL. Even the Council Races would be unknown to us. So yeah, I'd think we *ought* to have missed this cycle and been warring with the Yahg for Apex race of the subsequent cycle.

[Daemul]

I've played through ME3 13 times, explored every dialogue with Javik and Vendetta and I have never heard of this. That entire section of the page is supposition (like a lot of information on that wiki actually) which someone pulled from their backside.

Modifié par Daemul, 21 février 2014 - 01:21 .

[eyezonlyii]

RangerSG wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

I see no reason they couldn't have found warnings like we did. The warnings we found wouldn't have done us a lot of good without Protheans tampering with the Citadel. So it could've easily been the case that they too knew something was coming, but didn't have the reprieve we did and thus got the full brunt of the trap.

On the other hand, if they hadn't tampered with it, Sovereign would've sent the signal decades ago. The books make it clear it's been in the shadows for years trying to find out why the damn thing wasn't working. Which brings to mind an interesting question. Could we have missed this cycle? No tampering means the cycle starts much earlier, perhaps before we get the chance to discover the Charon relay. We might've been in the next cycle... with the yahg.

I actually think it likely humanity would've missed the cycle. I've always thought Sovereign ought to have signaled sometime around the end of the Krogan Rebellions. You had four space-faring civilizations controlling pretty much all the then-active relay network (Asari (w/ client Elcor), Turian (w/ client Volus), Salarian (with uplifted Krogan), Quarian were colonizing, if not a major Council race). The major organic threats had been neutralized (Rachni & Krogan). What's stopping the Reapers from seeing that as the time to harvest?

But even if it's the late 21st century, we'd still be confined to our system, unaware of the relay network, non-FTL. Even the Council Races would be unknown to us. So yeah, I'd think we *ought* to have missed this cycle and been warring with the Yahg for Apex race of the subsequent cycle.

Thus how ME4 is a reboot to the series. This was a "what-if scenario" the next games will be the aftermath of the Reaper event on the Asari/Salarian/Turians

[Invisible Man]

I always had a problem with the... "we fought them, system by system, planet by planet." lines
how did you do this when the prothean empire was fractured and unable to communicate with itself, let alone unable to travel between star clusters? etc, etc.

[CronoDragoon]

Why would they be unable to communicate?

[BeastSaver]

RangerSG wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

I see no reason they couldn't have found warnings like we did. The warnings we found wouldn't have done us a lot of good without Protheans tampering with the Citadel. So it could've easily been the case that they too knew something was coming, but didn't have the reprieve we did and thus got the full brunt of the trap.

On the other hand, if they hadn't tampered with it, Sovereign would've sent the signal decades ago. The books make it clear it's been in the shadows for years trying to find out why the damn thing wasn't working. Which brings to mind an interesting question. Could we have missed this cycle? No tampering means the cycle starts much earlier, perhaps before we get the chance to discover the Charon relay. We might've been in the next cycle... with the yahg.

I actually think it likely humanity would've missed the cycle. I've always thought Sovereign ought to have signaled sometime around the end of the Krogan Rebellions. You had four space-faring civilizations controlling pretty much all the then-active relay network (Asari (w/ client Elcor), Turian (w/ client Volus), Salarian (with uplifted Krogan), Quarian were colonizing, if not a major Council race). The major organic threats had been neutralized (Rachni & Krogan). What's stopping the Reapers from seeing that as the time to harvest?

But even if it's the late 21st century, we'd still be confined to our system, unaware of the relay network, non-FTL. Even the Council Races would be unknown to us. So yeah, I'd think we *ought* to have missed this cycle and been warring with the Yahg for Apex race of the subsequent cycle.

Humans were spared at the end of the Prothean cycle while still quite primitive. I don't think they would have been spared this time around. Being so close to space flight would have given them 50,000 years to advance and surpass all previous civilizations and possibly the ability to challenge the Reapers. I think the Yahg would also be destroyed since they are pre-space flight, and the Raloi would not be spared even though they destroyed all evidence they were a space-faring race.

Modifié par BeastSaver, 21 février 2014 - 03:30 .

[AlanC9]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Nope, the problem was how to convey a simple concept using symbols not dependent on context, current symbols or other culturally learned influences. It's harder than you might think.

Try to denote the concept "two" (not just two things but two) using none of the above...

It has nothing to do with tech levels. It's about the limitations of our system of communication, which is very much rooted in our perspective.

I don't think we read the same report. But this is turning into a derail.

[TurianRebel212]

Someone or something told them they were coming.


Something...... More.

[CrutchCricket]

BeastSaver wrote...
Humans were spared at the end of the Prothean cycle while still quite primitive. I don't think they would have been spared this time around. Being so close to space flight would have given them 50,000 years to advance and surpass all previous civilizations and possibly the ability to challenge the Reapers. I think the Yahg would also be destroyed since they are pre-space flight, and the Raloi would not be spared even though they destroyed all evidence they were a space-faring race.

The Reapers are avoiding Parnack. They have no reason to do so. In fact, if they were going to harvest there, it would be better to hit it first. It would be practically defenseless, no one would interfere, they'd get the whole race in one go, and Reapified yahg would likely be superior to any ground troops seen thus far.

Therefore it seems very likely the yahg won't be taken.

Less certain with the raloi, though all the points that apply to the yahg apply to them as well, minus the combat worth. Still if you take that statement at face value, destroying all evidence, should put them beneath the Reaper's notice. Unless Sovereign or the Collectors took notice of them before they retreated and relayed the info back to the main force. If that's the case the raloi are likely doomed.

[BeastSaver]

CrutchCricket wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...
Humans were spared at the end of the Prothean cycle while still quite primitive. I don't think they would have been spared this time around. Being so close to space flight would have given them 50,000 years to advance and surpass all previous civilizations and possibly the ability to challenge the Reapers. I think the Yahg would also be destroyed since they are pre-space flight, and the Raloi would not be spared even though they destroyed all evidence they were a space-faring race.

The Reapers are avoiding Parnack. They have no reason to do so. In fact, if they were going to harvest there, it would be better to hit it first. It would be practically defenseless, no one would interfere, they'd get the whole race in one go, and Reapified yahg would likely be superior to any ground troops seen thus far.

Therefore it seems very likely the yahg won't be taken.

Less certain with the raloi, though all the points that apply to the yahg apply to them as well, minus the combat worth. Still if you take that statement at face value, destroying all evidence, should put them beneath the Reaper's notice. Unless Sovereign or the Collectors took notice of them before they retreated and relayed the info back to the main force. If that's the case the raloi are likely doomed.

I disagree. IMO, Parnak is being left alone  simply because the Reapers are in no hurry. After all, it supposedly took them 200 years to finish up with the Prothean cycle. The Yahg have no way to get off planet so can be harvested (or destroyed) at leisure. I don't think they'd be much more effective as troops than the Turian/Krogan hybrids or Banshees.

The Asari and Salarians had been inhabiting the Citadel for a short while when Sovereign deemed the galaxy to be ready for harvest and tried to activate the Citadel relay (around the time of the Rachni War). The Yahg are equivalent to 20th century Earth, IIRC. The Reapers wouldn't give any race 50,000 years to develop unless they were primitive.

[KaiserShep]

Invisible Man wrote...

I always had a problem with the... "we fought them, system by system, planet by planet." lines
how did you do this when the prothean empire was fractured and unable to communicate with itself, let alone unable to travel between star clusters? etc, etc.

This was something that bugged me a little too. Maybe Protheans had far more advanced forms of FTL than the current cycle, but I doubt that it advanced to the point of driving the relays into obsolescence.

[ImaginaryMatter]

KaiserShep wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

I always had a problem with the... "we fought them, system by system, planet by planet." lines
how did you do this when the prothean empire was fractured and unable to communicate with itself, let alone unable to travel between star clusters? etc, etc.

This was something that bugged me a little too. Maybe Protheans had far more advanced forms of FTL than the current cycle, but I doubt that it advanced to the point of driving the relays into obsolescence.

A lot of what Javik says about his cycle always bothered me. When Vigil described the cycle it sounded much more one sided, yet the way Javik tells it it sounds like the Protheans were giving a pretty good fight -- at one point he even said technology wise the Protheans could have defeated the Reapers but their empire caused a lack of diversity and created a situation where they couldn't adapt fast enough to the Reapers.

[Clayless]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

I always had a problem with the... "we fought them, system by system, planet by planet." lines
how did you do this when the prothean empire was fractured and unable to communicate with itself, let alone unable to travel between star clusters? etc, etc.

This was something that bugged me a little too. Maybe Protheans had far more advanced forms of FTL than the current cycle, but I doubt that it advanced to the point of driving the relays into obsolescence.

A lot of what Javik says about his cycle always bothered me. When Vigil described the cycle it sounded much more one sided, yet the way Javik tells it it sounds like the Protheans were giving a pretty good fight -- at one point he even said technology wise the Protheans could have defeated the Reapers but their empire caused a lack of diversity and created a situation where they couldn't adapt fast enough to the Reapers.

He doesn't say they could have defeated the Reapers technology wise.

Anyway Vigil only described what happened as being one sided because it's a logical machine and the fight was one sided. Javik doesn't actually say anything to contradict that, he just talks about it being a war despite it clearly being a harvest, even in his stories.

As for the OP, don't use the wiki as a source. Javik even states they found out that "machines had surpassed them long ago" when the Reapers arrived, making their previous attempts to stop machines within the galaxy pointless. The wiki was just wrong again, it's not very reliable.

[CronoDragoon]

The only thing I can think of (I watched the Javik scenes on YT last night, nothing there I can see) would be if Liara mentioned it after she takes over as Shadow Broker in ME2.

[Anduin The Grey]

Javik mentions that the Protheans were involved in the Metacon war, a war between organics and a synthetic race, he tells that they were just beginning to turn the tide when the Reapers arrived. They were not expected and however long the Protheans and the subjugated races absorbed into Prothean society were involved in the Metacon War they then held the Reapers off for a further 300 years.

[CrutchCricket]

BeastSaver wrote...
I disagree. IMO, Parnak is being left alone  simply because the Reapers are in no hurry. After all, it supposedly took them 200 years to finish up with the Prothean cycle. The Yahg have no way to get off planet so can be harvested (or destroyed) at leisure. I don't think they'd be much more effective as troops than the Turian/Krogan hybrids or Banshees.

Doesn't follow. Even if Reapified yahg were exactly the same as brutes in terms of combat value, it still means capturing two races with the tech to actually fight back vs just one that is not so well equipped. And Banshees are ardat-yakshi only (so where are the regular asari husks?<_<) and thus far more rare, despite what MP would have you believe. If the Reapers were going to take the Yahg, they would take them first for the reasons I already mentioned.

The Asari and Salarians had been inhabiting the Citadel for a short while when Sovereign deemed the galaxy to be ready for harvest and tried to activate the Citadel relay (around the time of the Rachni War). The Yahg are equivalent to 20th century Earth, IIRC. The Reapers wouldn't give any race 50,000 years to develop unless they were primitive.

And what does that tell you? 50,000 years is not a set in stone number. The Reapers leave one of their own behind to observe the progress of the galaxy and signal when certain criteria are met (because the holokid needs its beauty sleep or something...). What would happen if no life arose in a 50,000 year life span? The Reapers come through for nothing? I think not. The Reapers are machines, following a (****ty) program. If certain criteria are met, a harvest occurs. If not, it doesn't. The time of the Reapers' return in the next cycle would depend on how fast the yahg or others advance past the point of no return

[Iakus]

RangerSG wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

I see no reason they couldn't have found warnings like we did. The warnings we found wouldn't have done us a lot of good without Protheans tampering with the Citadel. So it could've easily been the case that they too knew something was coming, but didn't have the reprieve we did and thus got the full brunt of the trap.

On the other hand, if they hadn't tampered with it, Sovereign would've sent the signal decades ago. The books make it clear it's been in the shadows for years trying to find out why the damn thing wasn't working. Which brings to mind an interesting question. Could we have missed this cycle? No tampering means the cycle starts much earlier, perhaps before we get the chance to discover the Charon relay. We might've been in the next cycle... with the yahg.

I actually think it likely humanity would've missed the cycle. I've always thought Sovereign ought to have signaled sometime around the end of the Krogan Rebellions. You had four space-faring civilizations controlling pretty much all the then-active relay network (Asari (w/ client Elcor), Turian (w/ client Volus), Salarian (with uplifted Krogan), Quarian were colonizing, if not a major Council race). The major organic threats had been neutralized (Rachni & Krogan). What's stopping the Reapers from seeing that as the time to harvest?

But even if it's the late 21st century, we'd still be confined to our system, unaware of the relay network, non-FTL. Even the Council Races would be unknown to us. So yeah, I'd think we *ought* to have missed this cycle and been warring with the Yahg for Apex race of the subsequent cycle.

There is speculation that the Rachni Wars were Sovereign's first attemtpt to kickstart the cycle

[Anduin The Grey]

The Yahg are being left alone though. Reapers do not harvest all life in the galaxy, only those that are technologically advanced.

[RangerSG]

iakus wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

I see no reason they couldn't have found warnings like we did. The warnings we found wouldn't have done us a lot of good without Protheans tampering with the Citadel. So it could've easily been the case that they too knew something was coming, but didn't have the reprieve we did and thus got the full brunt of the trap.

On the other hand, if they hadn't tampered with it, Sovereign would've sent the signal decades ago. The books make it clear it's been in the shadows for years trying to find out why the damn thing wasn't working. Which brings to mind an interesting question. Could we have missed this cycle? No tampering means the cycle starts much earlier, perhaps before we get the chance to discover the Charon relay. We might've been in the next cycle... with the yahg.

I actually think it likely humanity would've missed the cycle. I've always thought Sovereign ought to have signaled sometime around the end of the Krogan Rebellions. You had four space-faring civilizations controlling pretty much all the then-active relay network (Asari (w/ client Elcor), Turian (w/ client Volus), Salarian (with uplifted Krogan), Quarian were colonizing, if not a major Council race). The major organic threats had been neutralized (Rachni & Krogan). What's stopping the Reapers from seeing that as the time to harvest?

But even if it's the late 21st century, we'd still be confined to our system, unaware of the relay network, non-FTL. Even the Council Races would be unknown to us. So yeah, I'd think we *ought* to have missed this cycle and been warring with the Yahg for Apex race of the subsequent cycle.

There is speculation that the Rachni Wars were Sovereign's first attemtpt to kickstart the cycle

Yeah, that was what I thought before ME3 too. Basically that Sovereign was using the Rachni like he used Saren & the Geth. But I think elements of the dialogue in ME3 make that less likely. It seems to hint that Leviathan motivated the Rachni somehow. Though Leviathan's writing is so messy it's hard for me to take any of it too seriously. 

Regardless, if humanity hadn't discovered the Martian Data Cache, which in turn led them to open the Charon Relay, given it's a system without Eezo (apart from said cache), it's hard to imagine it would've had the FTL tech to advance out of the system until much later in the cycle.

Simply having space probes isn't enough to trigger the Reapers. It's a matter of discovering the Relays and exploiting the Eezo-tech the Reapers intend for races to use with it. It's fair to wonder, actually if there aren't very advanced races in systems of space where Element Zero has not occurred, thus leaving them trapped to time-dilation FTL. The relays don't go everywhere. And not all relays are active.

[Iakus]

RangerSG wrote...

Yeah, that was what I thought before ME3 too. Basically that Sovereign was using the Rachni like he used Saren & the Geth. But I think elements of the dialogue in ME3 make that less likely. It seems to hint that Leviathan motivated the Rachni somehow. Though Leviathan's writing is so messy it's hard for me to take any of it too seriously. 

Regardless, if humanity hadn't discovered the Martian Data Cache, which in turn led them to open the Charon Relay, given it's a system without Eezo (apart from said cache), it's hard to imagine it would've had the FTL tech to advance out of the system until much later in the cycle.

Simply having space probes isn't enough to trigger the Reapers. It's a matter of discovering the Relays and exploiting the Eezo-tech the Reapers intend for races to use with it. It's fair to wonder, actually if there aren't very advanced races in systems of space where Element Zero has not occurred, thus leaving them trapped to time-dilation FTL. The relays don't go everywhere. And not all relays are active.

I disregard the Leviathan connection.  Rachni paters are not relevent data for finding the Leviathans, so it's veracity is in question.

And humanity does get eezo from Jupiter and Saturn, I think.  The cache just had refined eezo.  But yes, without the cache, it would have taken humanity much, much longer to develop the tech on their own.

OTOH, they might have found something else, free from the lines of development the Reapers put forth  

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Barquiel wrote...

I always wondered why the protheans (or any other race) didn't build the the crucible before the reapers arrived. The Catalyst says that the Crucible design/plans/blueprints first appeared several cycles ago and were passed down from cycle to cycle....but we're supposed to believe the crucible was never finished?

I mean, our excuse is that we didn't understand the warnings because we were not evolved to the same mental capability of the Protheans. But the next cycle has no problems to understand Liara's message in the refuse ending, and they used the crucible before the reapers arrived.

Don't you know? Each cycle had a Liara who magically discovered a way to defeat the Reapers but only after the Reapers invaded.

Now how the next cycle avoided the war completely.... That was because OUR Liara was better than the others. OUR Liara wrote out all of the mistakes we made + the complete diagrams of the Crucible and that it didn't work + she put it in the front of the archives with the technology, not in the secret back end compartment like the Protheans did. And she probably put it in several different possible language formats (images, digital, analog, pictograms, and several current day galactic languages both verbal and written) just because she's so awesome.

This enabled the next cycle to build the Crucible attach it to the Citadel and blow up the reapers while they were in Dark Space + the one sentinel they left floating around in the galaxy.

We fought a terrible war so they wouldn't have to....

[ShadowLordXII]

Long story short, they studied the civilization before them and learned about the reapers. But they didn't know that the Citadel was a trap, so even with all of their precautions, the reapers still zerg rushed through the hidden mass relay and cut off the central government of the Prothean Empire.

They knew about the reapers, but had no way of knowing that the Citadel had a Hidden Mass Relay inside of it due to how well it had been hidden by the keepers up to that point. The Ilos scientists were the ones who discovered the Keepers link to the reapers and to the Citadel after the Empire was destroyed and used that to sabotage the Citadel and the reaper plan as a result.

[Massa FX]

Suspension of disbelief. Major fail!

Plotholes and loreholes dominate ME. This is why they ended Shepards story.

We need a fresh start 'cause the cow plop is too thick to fix.

Modifié par Massa FX, 22 février 2014 - 03:00 .

[RangerSG]

iakus wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Yeah, that was what I thought before ME3 too. Basically that Sovereign was using the Rachni like he used Saren & the Geth. But I think elements of the dialogue in ME3 make that less likely. It seems to hint that Leviathan motivated the Rachni somehow. Though Leviathan's writing is so messy it's hard for me to take any of it too seriously. 

Regardless, if humanity hadn't discovered the Martian Data Cache, which in turn led them to open the Charon Relay, given it's a system without Eezo (apart from said cache), it's hard to imagine it would've had the FTL tech to advance out of the system until much later in the cycle.

Simply having space probes isn't enough to trigger the Reapers. It's a matter of discovering the Relays and exploiting the Eezo-tech the Reapers intend for races to use with it. It's fair to wonder, actually if there aren't very advanced races in systems of space where Element Zero has not occurred, thus leaving them trapped to time-dilation FTL. The relays don't go everywhere. And not all relays are active.

I disregard the Leviathan connection.  Rachni paters are not relevent data for finding the Leviathans, so it's veracity is in question.

And humanity does get eezo from Jupiter and Saturn, I think.  The cache just had refined eezo.  But yes, without the cache, it would have taken humanity much, much longer to develop the tech on their own.

OTOH, they might have found something else, free from the lines of development the Reapers put forth  

There's no Eezo in Sol System in ME2, and I've never seen any lore statements about deposits beyond the Martian Cache. 

Hard to say, supposedly it's residual matter from a supernova event. Even in game, most of it found is in worlds that probably had civilzations in previous cycles (garden and post-garden worlds). I could be mistaken, since I don't have a lot of the secondary sources. 

Either way, I agree. No way humanity unlocks Charon in the 23rd century without the Data Cache.

[Iakus]

[quote]RangerSG wrote...

I disregard the Leviathan connection.  Rachni paters are not relevent data for finding the Leviathans, so it's veracity is in question.

And humanity does get eezo from Jupiter and Saturn, I think.  The cache just had refined eezo.  But yes, without the cache, it would have taken humanity much, much longer to develop the tech on their own.

OTOH, they might have found something else, free from the lines of development the Reapers put forth  [/quote]
There's no Eezo in Sol System in ME2, and I've never seen any lore statements about deposits beyond the Martian Cache. 

Hard to say, supposedly it's residual matter from a supernova event. Even in game, most of it found is in worlds that probably had civilzations in previous cycles (garden and post-garden worlds). I could be mistaken, since I don't have a lot of the secondary sources. 

Either way, I agree. No way humanity unlocks Charon in the 23rd century without the Data Cache.


[/quote]
My mistake, it's Helium-3 that they mine from gas giants.  That is available in quantity in teh Sol system.