93 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr_Extrem]

CrutchCricket wrote...

I see no reason they couldn't have found warnings like we did. The warnings we found wouldn't have done us a lot of good without Protheans tampering with the Citadel. So it could've easily been the case that they too knew something was coming, but didn't have the reprieve we did and thus got the full brunt of the trap.

On the other hand, if they hadn't tampered with it, Sovereign would've sent the signal decades ago. The books make it clear it's been in the shadows for years trying to find out why the damn thing wasn't working. Which brings to mind an interesting question. Could we have missed this cycle? No tampering means the cycle starts much earlier, perhaps before we get the chance to discover the Charon relay. We might've been in the next cycle... with the yahg.

what warnings? ... we only found it out, because the protheans had the time to forge a massage, only organics could use.

the protheans were taken by surprise - vigil and the old recordings on ilos are making this very clear. IF the protheans would have known that giant killer-machine-squids would invade, using the citadel (the protheans centre of power) as a gateway, would you not think that they would have done something in advance? .. like ... erasing all data on their race (ilos was top secret and only saved, because the reapers destroyed the data by accident)? sabotage the network? try to let them not use the citadel in the first place?

[BeastSaver]

CrutchCricket wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...
I disagree. IMO, Parnak is being left alone  simply because the Reapers are in no hurry. After all, it supposedly took them 200 years to finish up with the Prothean cycle. The Yahg have no way to get off planet so can be harvested (or destroyed) at leisure. I don't think they'd be much more effective as troops than the Turian/Krogan hybrids or Banshees.

Doesn't follow. Even if Reapified yahg were exactly the same as brutes in terms of combat value, it still means capturing two races with the tech to actually fight back vs just one that is not so well equipped. And Banshees are ardat-yakshi only (so where are the regular asari husks?<_<) and thus far more rare, despite what MP would have you believe. If the Reapers were going to take the Yahg, they would take them first for the reasons I already mentioned.

The Asari and Salarians had been inhabiting the Citadel for a short while when Sovereign deemed the galaxy to be ready for harvest and tried to activate the Citadel relay (around the time of the Rachni War). The Yahg are equivalent to 20th century Earth, IIRC. The Reapers wouldn't give any race 50,000 years to develop unless they were primitive.

And what does that tell you? 50,000 years is not a set in stone number. The Reapers leave one of their own behind to observe the progress of the galaxy and signal when certain criteria are met (because the holokid needs its beauty sleep or something...). What would happen if no life arose in a 50,000 year life span? The Reapers come through for nothing? I think not. The Reapers are machines, following a (****ty) program. If certain criteria are met, a harvest occurs. If not, it doesn't. The time of the Reapers' return in the next cycle would depend on how fast the yahg or others advance past the point of no return

I still disagree. In response to what you underlined above: Javik stated that all the major council races were primitives in his time, thus had approximately 50,000 years to develop. If a civilization was nearing their space age and were left alone at the end of the harvest and had even 10,000-20,000 years to develop, they could possibly surpass the Reapers or even (if what the Catalyst asserts is true) have developed AI technology that could have wiped out ALL organic life in the galaxy. There is nothing in-game that would suggest that any of the cycles were that much less than 50,000 years.

As to your other point about the Banshees, IIRC, according to the codex, even Asari with latent AY could be converted, bringing their numbers up significantly. (I wouldn't know what's in MP since I don't play it.)

Modifié par BeastSaver, 22 février 2014 - 06:30 .

[Invisible Man]

as far as parnak goes... the first race hit by the reapers were the batarians, then they hit the humans, then then turians, they were in the process of hitting the asari when the geth/quarian war was going on (though, that may have been going on for a while, then again maybe not; it's kind of moot as the quarians are behind the timing there)

to me this says, the batarians were hit first cause they were at the entry point the reapers picked to enter the galaxy, the humans were seen as the largest threat (as a human was behind foiling the reaper's earlier plans), that's why they went next. then the turians because they have the largest military presence. etc., etc., etc. it appears the reapers attacked what they might have seen as the largest threat first, and simply moved down the list. parnak's inhabitance have no space travel capabilities, probably putting them fairly far down on the long end of the list. though this is just an opinion that seems to fit what facts I have.

---edit typos

Modifié par Invisible Man, 22 février 2014 - 08:25 .

[shodiswe]

When you talk to Javik in the Earth Embassy while he's touring the Citadel for the first time in his life he tells us that the Reapers hit the Citadel first, and it came as a complete surprise to the Proteans.

The Reapers then used all the data found on the Citadel to aid in the systematic harvest and eradication of the Proteans.

That's why they didn't manage to complete or use the Crusible. They found it too late and once the Relays were shutdown they had no way to deliver it even if they had completed it.

The Proteans never knew, and if some of them we're worried about ancient "horror stories" from long dead civilisations I doubt the leadership took it any more seriously than the current council.

The current council has heard those stories, when Shepard brought it up it didn't surprise them, it wasn't something new, they just ddin't belive it. The Council had other more pressing concerns than "fairytales".
The Proteans were constantly at war or conquering someone, they were at war with that synthetic species when the Reapers attacked. According to Javik they were winning, but the war was still ongoing.

The Protean Beacons might have worked as communication, it's also possible they had some kind of QEC communication(possibly the Beacons used something like that). While limited it would allow important inteligence and information to be shared even if the Relays are locked.

Modifié par shodiswe, 22 février 2014 - 09:51 .

[shodiswe]

Also, remember that Volus Billionaire that was trying to find proof of the Reapers and a way to fight them since long before Shepard learned about them.

Shepard wasn't the first to learn abotu the Reaper threat, and he certainly wasn't the first to try to warn the Council. I'm pretty sure that Volus gave the Council at least a go before he took it on himself to save the galaxy.

That Volus is kind of tragic, all that work for nothing. He didn't get any part to play in ME1-3.

Modifié par shodiswe, 22 février 2014 - 09:55 .

[CrutchCricket]

Dr_Extrem wrote...


what warnings? ... we only found it out, because the protheans had the time to forge a massage, only organics could use.

the protheans were taken by surprise - vigil and the old recordings on ilos are making this very clear. IF the protheans would have known that giant killer-machine-squids would invade, using the citadel (the protheans centre of power) as a gateway, would you not think that they would have done something in advance? .. like ... erasing all data on their race (ilos was top secret and only saved, because the reapers destroyed the data by accident)? sabotage the network? try to let them not use the citadel in the first place?

If you were to ask the government of this cycle they likely would've said they were taken by surprise as well. The fact that they're idiots is a consideration.

And nothing from the topic says they knew exact details like the fact that the Citadel was a trap. But unearthing a warning from a previous cycle (let's call it an innusanon beacon), decyphering something like "The Reapers are coming! The Reapers are coming!" and then having the report be buried due to other concerns is not a contradiction to anything we know. The Protheans were on the cusp of the Metacon War. It's quite likely that even if they took the message seriously their stance was "one set of toasters at a time" (it's not like they didn't lack in arrogance if Javik's any indication). Then the Reapers showed up and roflpwnd them.

tl;dr: Knowing about an enemy does not preclude them surprising you.

Also the fact that something like Ilos can be hidden from the Reapers means other races have a chance of hiding things and it doesn't take an "organics only" safety lock do to it. The Reapers MO is to wipe all traces of previous cycles (at least tech-wise). If they knew about the beacons it wouldn't matter what was on them. They'd be destroyed anyway.

BeastSaver wrote...
I still disagree. In response to what you underlined above: Javik stated that all the major council races were primitives in his time, thus had approximately 50,000 years to develop. If a civilization was nearing their space age and were left alone at the end of the harvest and had even 10,000-20,000 years to develop, they could possibly surpass the Reapers or even (if what the Catalyst asserts is true) have developed AI technology that could have wiped out ALL organic life in the galaxy. There is nothing in-game that would suggest that any of the cycles were that much less than 50,000 years.

That's why a vanguard is left behind to monitor it. And we have no data on what cycles pre-Protheans were like or how long they lasted. Or indeed how many cycles there are, even if we could estimate when the Reapers began. And it's not like the Reapers need the rest. I don't see why they couldn't do a 10,000 year cycle. That's still a long time. They only go dormant because there's nothing for them to do.

As to your other point about the Banshees, IIRC, according to the codex, even Asari with latent AY could be converted, bringing their numbers up significantly. (I wouldn't know what's in MP since I don't play it.)

They're still rarer than a full population, and you still have to hunt them down (while they resist, can escape and call in allies etc), test them for AY genes and then turn them. Meanwhile, every yahg has what you need and they're defenseless and without allies.

Invisible Man wrote...
to me this says, the batarians were hit first cause they were at the entry point the reapers picked to enter the galaxy, the humans were seen as the largest threat (as a human was behind foiling the reaper's earlier plans), that's why they went next. then the turians because they have the largest military presence. etc., etc., etc. it appears the reapers attacked what they might have seen as the largest threat first, and simply moved down the list. parnak's inhabitance have no space travel capabilities, probably putting them fairly far down on the long end of the list. though this is just an opinion that seems to fit what facts I have.
---edit typos

All true, except why would go for the largest threat or the greatest military with nothing but cannibals when you can have a much stronger fighting force that has no weapons to oppose you, no ships to escape and no allies to call on? Indeed, everyone seems to avoid them. Prey (if it is prey) that's isolated from the pack is the easiest pickings.

The Reapers hit the batarians first because that was the entry point. Fine. Nobody knew about it because the batarians are also isolationist. If you were going to take the yagh, you hit Parnack next, and you're already at boss levels for ground troops and maybe you've even got a new Reaper on the way. Then you hit the greatest threats.

A yahg invasion by itself would be horrifying to most species. A Reaper-yahg invasion? Might as well throw in the towel for most people.

[Anduin The Grey]

BeastSaver wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...
I disagree. IMO, Parnak is being left alone  simply because the Reapers are in no hurry. After all, it supposedly took them 200 years to finish up with the Prothean cycle. The Yahg have no way to get off planet so can be harvested (or destroyed) at leisure. I don't think they'd be much more effective as troops than the Turian/Krogan hybrids or Banshees.

Doesn't follow. Even if Reapified yahg were exactly the same as brutes in terms of combat value, it still means capturing two races with the tech to actually fight back vs just one that is not so well equipped. And Banshees are ardat-yakshi only (so where are the regular asari husks?<_<) and thus far more rare, despite what MP would have you believe. If the Reapers were going to take the Yahg, they would take them first for the reasons I already mentioned.

The Asari and Salarians had been inhabiting the Citadel for a short while when Sovereign deemed the galaxy to be ready for harvest and tried to activate the Citadel relay (around the time of the Rachni War). The Yahg are equivalent to 20th century Earth, IIRC. The Reapers wouldn't give any race 50,000 years to develop unless they were primitive.

And what does that tell you? 50,000 years is not a set in stone number. The Reapers leave one of their own behind to observe the progress of the galaxy and signal when certain criteria are met (because the holokid needs its beauty sleep or something...). What would happen if no life arose in a 50,000 year life span? The Reapers come through for nothing? I think not. The Reapers are machines, following a (****ty) program. If certain criteria are met, a harvest occurs. If not, it doesn't. The time of the Reapers' return in the next cycle would depend on how fast the yahg or others advance past the point of no return

I still disagree. In response to what you underlined above: Javik stated that all the major council races were primitives in his time, thus had approximately 50,000 years to develop. If a civilization was nearing their space age and were left alone at the end of the harvest and had even 10,000-20,000 years to develop, they could possibly surpass the Reapers or even (if what the Catalyst asserts is true) have developed AI technology that could have wiped out ALL organic life in the galaxy. There is nothing in-game that would suggest that any of the cycles were that much less than 50,000 years.

As to your other point about the Banshees, IIRC, according to the codex, even Asari with latent AY could be converted, bringing their numbers up significantly. (I wouldn't know what's in MP since I don't play it.)

So what do you suppose any civilisation can do in 20,000 years that the Leviathan cannot do in 37 million years?

[BeastSaver]

Anduin The Grey wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...
I disagree. IMO, Parnak is being left alone  simply because the Reapers are in no hurry. After all, it supposedly took them 200 years to finish up with the Prothean cycle. The Yahg have no way to get off planet so can be harvested (or destroyed) at leisure. I don't think they'd be much more effective as troops than the Turian/Krogan hybrids or Banshees.

Doesn't follow. Even if Reapified yahg were exactly the same as brutes in terms of combat value, it still means capturing two races with the tech to actually fight back vs just one that is not so well equipped. And Banshees are ardat-yakshi only (so where are the regular asari husks?<_<) and thus far more rare, despite what MP would have you believe. If the Reapers were going to take the Yahg, they would take them first for the reasons I already mentioned.

The Asari and Salarians had been inhabiting the Citadel for a short while when Sovereign deemed the galaxy to be ready for harvest and tried to activate the Citadel relay (around the time of the Rachni War). The Yahg are equivalent to 20th century Earth, IIRC. The Reapers wouldn't give any race 50,000 years to develop unless they were primitive.

And what does that tell you? 50,000 years is not a set in stone number. The Reapers leave one of their own behind to observe the progress of the galaxy and signal when certain criteria are met (because the holokid needs its beauty sleep or something...). What would happen if no life arose in a 50,000 year life span? The Reapers come through for nothing? I think not. The Reapers are machines, following a (****ty) program. If certain criteria are met, a harvest occurs. If not, it doesn't. The time of the Reapers' return in the next cycle would depend on how fast the yahg or others advance past the point of no return

I still disagree. In response to what you underlined above: Javik stated that all the major council races were primitives in his time, thus had approximately 50,000 years to develop. If a civilization was nearing their space age and were left alone at the end of the harvest and had even 10,000-20,000 years to develop, they could possibly surpass the Reapers or even (if what the Catalyst asserts is true) have developed AI technology that could have wiped out ALL organic life in the galaxy. There is nothing in-game that would suggest that any of the cycles were that much less than 50,000 years.

As to your other point about the Banshees, IIRC, according to the codex, even Asari with latent AY could be converted, bringing their numbers up significantly. (I wouldn't know what's in MP since I don't play it.)

So what do you suppose any civilisation can do in 20,000 years that the Leviathan cannot do in 37 million years?

What about the Leviathans? They are doing what they do covertly while they hide. My point is that the current cycle had 50,000 years to develop. If the humans had been spared if Sovereign had managed to trigger the Citadel relay the humans would actually have had  a total of 60,000 to 70,000 years to develop.

[BeastSaver]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...


what warnings? ... we only found it out, because the protheans had the time to forge a massage, only organics could use.

the protheans were taken by surprise - vigil and the old recordings on ilos are making this very clear. IF the protheans would have known that giant killer-machine-squids would invade, using the citadel (the protheans centre of power) as a gateway, would you not think that they would have done something in advance? .. like ... erasing all data on their race (ilos was top secret and only saved, because the reapers destroyed the data by accident)? sabotage the network? try to let them not use the citadel in the first place?

If you were to ask the government of this cycle they likely would've said they were taken by surprise as well. The fact that they're idiots is a consideration.

And nothing from the topic says they knew exact details like the fact that the Citadel was a trap. But unearthing a warning from a previous cycle (let's call it an innusanon beacon), decyphering something like "The Reapers are coming! The Reapers are coming!" and then having the report be buried due to other concerns is not a contradiction to anything we know. The Protheans were on the cusp of the Metacon War. It's quite likely that even if they took the message seriously their stance was "one set of toasters at a time" (it's not like they didn't lack in arrogance if Javik's any indication). Then the Reapers showed up and roflpwnd them.

tl;dr: Knowing about an enemy does not preclude them surprising you.

Also the fact that something like Ilos can be hidden from the Reapers means other races have a chance of hiding things and it doesn't take an "organics only" safety lock do to it. The Reapers MO is to wipe all traces of previous cycles (at least tech-wise). If they knew about the beacons it wouldn't matter what was on them. They'd be destroyed anyway.

BeastSaver wrote...
I still disagree. In response to what you underlined above: Javik stated that all the major council races were primitives in his time, thus had approximately 50,000 years to develop. If a civilization was nearing their space age and were left alone at the end of the harvest and had even 10,000-20,000 years to develop, they could possibly surpass the Reapers or even (if what the Catalyst asserts is true) have developed AI technology that could have wiped out ALL organic life in the galaxy. There is nothing in-game that would suggest that any of the cycles were that much less than 50,000 years.

That's why a vanguard is left behind to monitor it. And we have no data on what cycles pre-Protheans were like or how long they lasted. Or indeed how many cycles there are, even if we could estimate when the Reapers began. And it's not like the Reapers need the rest. I don't see why they couldn't do a 10,000 year cycle. That's still a long time. They only go dormant because there's nothing for them to do.

As to your other point about the Banshees, IIRC, according to the codex, even Asari with latent AY could be converted, bringing their numbers up significantly. (I wouldn't know what's in MP since I don't play it.)

They're still rarer than a full population, and you still have to hunt them down (while they resist, can escape and call in allies etc), test them for AY genes and then turn them. Meanwhile, every yahg has what you need and they're defenseless and without allies.

Invisible Man wrote...
to me this says, the batarians were hit first cause they were at the entry point the reapers picked to enter the galaxy, the humans were seen as the largest threat (as a human was behind foiling the reaper's earlier plans), that's why they went next. then the turians because they have the largest military presence. etc., etc., etc. it appears the reapers attacked what they might have seen as the largest threat first, and simply moved down the list. parnak's inhabitance have no space travel capabilities, probably putting them fairly far down on the long end of the list. though this is just an opinion that seems to fit what facts I have.
---edit typos

All true, except why would go for the largest threat or the greatest military with nothing but cannibals when you can have a much stronger fighting force that has no weapons to oppose you, no ships to escape and no allies to call on? Indeed, everyone seems to avoid them. Prey (if it is prey) that's isolated from the pack is the easiest pickings.

The Reapers hit the batarians first because that was the entry point. Fine. Nobody knew about it because the batarians are also isolationist. If you were going to take the yagh, you hit Parnack next, and you're already at boss levels for ground troops and maybe you've even got a new Reaper on the way. Then you hit the greatest threats.

A yahg invasion by itself would be horrifying to most species. A Reaper-yahg invasion? Might as well throw in the towel for most people.

You're still not convincing me that I'm wrong, and obviously you REALLY want the Yahg to be spared. Not going to beat this dead horse any longer. Enjoy your game!

[Anduin The Grey]

I don't see what you expect humans to do in 20k years that the Leviathan can't do. The Catalyst was created by the Leviathan and is much an AI as humans are animals.

[ImaginaryMatter]

starlitegirlx wrote...

Doesn't follow. Even if Reapified yahg were exactly the same as brutes in terms of combat value, it still means capturing two races with the tech to actually fight back vs just one that is not so well equipped. And Banshees are ardat-yakshi only (so where are the regular asari husks?<_<) and thus far more rare, despite what MP would have you believe. If the Reapers were going to take the Yahg, they would take them first for the reasons I already mentioned.

If you have LotSB DLC, then you see yahg on sur'kesh where the brutes are supposed to be. So they did take the yahg and turn them into brutes. The only reason this has not been acknowledged is for one, not playing LotSB means you don't see Yahgs. So for those who don't know what a yahg is, it is confusing. You only know what a yahg is if you play LotSB. Also, they needed to do something with the krogan because they didn't. But brutes are yahgs. They fill the slot perfected. They move like yahgs. Yahgs are substituted where brutes are not if you have the DLC. And krogans aren't reaperized but neither are salarians, though saliarians wouldn't be very good reapers as they are frail. Krogans however would be excellent. Asari aren't reaperized either, which is weird except if you realize that Asari worlds were not attacked until later. But they did want the ardat-yakshi, which is kind of weird because it's not really a well known thing but reapers managed to focus on them. Kind of a plot weak point there and given how many banshees you do encounter, either that monastary was massive and most of the banshees were taken or it's just bad writing with no logic to it.

Except, from the Codex entry for Brutes: "The brute is a hulking amalgamation of turian and krogan victims of the Reapers."

[BeastSaver]

Anduin The Grey wrote...

I don't see what you expect humans to do in 20k years that the Leviathan can't do. The Catalyst was created by the Leviathan and is much an AI as humans are animals.

I'm not following. The Leviathans have been around since the beginning, so I don't see what they have to do with the conversation, particularly since they are hiding. That tells me that they can be overwhelmed if attacked by enough Reapers.

As for the humans, if the Reapers had attacked 2,000 years earlier and they had been spared, they would have found the cache on Mars and eventually "discovered" the Citadel, which the Keepers would adapt to suit them. Then, if the 50,000 years was the norm, they would have an incredible amount of time to become really advanced, spread across the galaxy, and create AIs. Even if they only had 20,000 years, that's still a long time.

In any case, my theory is that, even had the Reapers attacked 2,000 years earlier, humans (and the Yahg) would not have been left alive, since they were too far advanced.

[CrutchCricket]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
If you have LotSB DLC, then you see yahg on sur'kesh where the brutes are supposed to be. So they did take the yahg and turn them into brutes. The only reason this has not been acknowledged is for one, not playing LotSB means you don't see Yahgs. So for those who don't know what a yahg is, it is confusing. You only know what a yahg is if you play LotSB. Also, they needed to do something with the krogan because they didn't. But brutes are yahgs. They fill the slot perfected. They move like yahgs. Yahgs are substituted where brutes are not if you have the DLC. And krogans aren't reaperized but neither are salarians, though saliarians wouldn't be very good reapers as they are frail. Krogans however would be excellent. Asari aren't reaperized either, which is weird except if you realize that Asari worlds were not attacked until later. But they did want the ardat-yakshi, which is kind of weird because it's not really a well known thing but reapers managed to focus on them. Kind of a plot weak point there and given how many banshees you do encounter, either that monastary was massive and most of the banshees were taken or it's just bad writing with no logic to it.

Except, from the Codex entry for Brutes: "The brute is a hulking amalgamation of turian and krogan victims of the Reapers."

The turian head, which looks nothing like the yahg, should've been a dead giveaway.

The only thing brutes share with yahg is animation recycling. And that's hardly binding in-universe.

As for not seeing them in ME3 if you didn't do Shadow Broker, is this confirmed? I haven't found anything of the sort. Not that it would mean any more than not seeing Kasumi if you didn't do Stolen Memory.

BeastSaver wrote...
You're still not convincing me that I'm wrong, and obviously you REALLY want the Yahg to be spared. Not going to beat this dead horse any longer. Enjoy your game!

*shrug. It's just in-game evidence + logic. Makes no difference to me if you refuse to accept it.

Incidentally do you have any support for your theory other than your own interpretation of a "standardized" cycle?

[BeastSaver]

CrutchCricket wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
If you have LotSB DLC, then you see yahg on sur'kesh where the brutes are supposed to be. So they did take the yahg and turn them into brutes. The only reason this has not been acknowledged is for one, not playing LotSB means you don't see Yahgs. So for those who don't know what a yahg is, it is confusing. You only know what a yahg is if you play LotSB. Also, they needed to do something with the krogan because they didn't. But brutes are yahgs. They fill the slot perfected. They move like yahgs. Yahgs are substituted where brutes are not if you have the DLC. And krogans aren't reaperized but neither are salarians, though saliarians wouldn't be very good reapers as they are frail. Krogans however would be excellent. Asari aren't reaperized either, which is weird except if you realize that Asari worlds were not attacked until later. But they did want the ardat-yakshi, which is kind of weird because it's not really a well known thing but reapers managed to focus on them. Kind of a plot weak point there and given how many banshees you do encounter, either that monastary was massive and most of the banshees were taken or it's just bad writing with no logic to it.

Except, from the Codex entry for Brutes: "The brute is a hulking amalgamation of turian and krogan victims of the Reapers."

The turian head, which looks nothing like the yahg, should've been a dead giveaway.

The only thing brutes share with yahg is animation recycling. And that's hardly binding in-universe.

As for not seeing them in ME3 if you didn't do Shadow Broker, is this confirmed? I haven't found anything of the sort. Not that it would mean any more than not seeing Kasumi if you didn't do Stolen Memory.

BeastSaver wrote...
You're still not convincing me that I'm wrong, and obviously you REALLY want the Yahg to be spared. Not going to beat this dead horse any longer. Enjoy your game!

*shrug. It's just in-game evidence + logic. Makes no difference to me if you refuse to accept it.

Incidentally do you have any support for your theory other than your own interpretation of a "standardized" cycle?

ME2 in-game message from Chorban, who you help scan the Keepers in ME:

"I hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign!

You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheans! It may have been made by something far older, with the keepers as organic guardians. And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react to...something, some signal or something...about every 50 thousand years. You can measure genetic variances; it's a bit like comparing rings on a tree to see the drought years.

Whoever did this...well, around the last time this signal went off would be around the time the Protheans disappeared. And it's scheduled to go off sometime around now. If any of the old tech still works, they could have some nasty surprises waiting for us.

Just thought you'd want to know. Nobody here on the Citadel will listen to me."


As far as the Yahg on Sur'kesh are concerned, they are still there whether or not you play LotSB. IIRC, the difference is you know what they are if you did, you don't know what they are if you didn't. They are there because the Salarians are considering uplifting them like they did the Krogan.

[CrutchCricket]

Chorban's message isn't telling us anything we don't already know.

More importantly, within the context of the universe, Chorban's data is now a secondary source and an incomplete one as well. We know who sends the signals and we know what they do. So I find the primary source, the Reapers, more convincing.

The Reapers:
a) are built to harvest space-faring mass-effect using civilizations of a certain sophistication because of their potential to create AI
leave behind a vanguard to monitor the rise of civilizations until such time as they fit the criteria for harvesting.

Now a point that isn't in-game evidence but should be self-evident: Life does not follow a clock. There is no law of the universe that states "a species will go from cavemen to mass effect starships in exactly 50,000" years. Some will be slower, some will be faster.

Again I ask: would the Reapers show up 50,000 years later if no species arose? Or in the opposite case, if a species developed faster than the projected cycle time, would the vanguard not signal the Reapers because 50,000 years had not passed? Surely not. Both of these case go against what the Reapers are.

In order to fulfill their purpose they must be flexible enough to adapt to the differing rates of advancement for each species. Which means 50,000 years is not set in stone.

[TurianRebel212]

In all seriousness.

The Leviathan told them. Either by one of it's thralls or the orbs that are scattered throughout the galaxy. Like the orb on Elentania in ME1.

The Prothean constructed their crucible and did the same things that Shepard's cycles did...... Except they chose, shall we say, poorly.

Hence what the "Catalyst" tells Shepard about synthesis...... "We have tried it BEFORE, it is something that cannot be forced". See, great liars and manipulators mix a little truth in with their lies.

The Derpy Prothean picked synthesis.... Hence Ilos and the HUMAN number and letters on Ilos......

Yeah.

Also... When the Catalyst is chatting up Shep, it say's "you are the first ORGANIC to be here".... Meaning, that there were others that made it to the decision chamber, but.....

They were synthetic or highly augmented with synthetic tech....

Now, put your thinking caps on and go back to ME2, the Collectors, and the Convo with Mordin about Collectors....





Or not, and just video games and stuff. MOAR "Bahd rieting" and pl0t holezzz.

It's probably the latter.

[BeastSaver]

The Citadel and the relays were built to facilitate the rapid advancement of the species that found them. If they had not been available, advancement would be very uneven. In this particular cycle, the sentient species are: Human, Asari, Turian, Salarian, Volus, Elcor, Hanar, Drell, Rachni (if you let them live), Krogan, Vorcha, Raloi, and Yahg. That's 13 species that were left alone. Of all these species some were slower than others, some were uplifted before they were ready. Virtually all of them took advantage of the Citadel and the relays as well as data left by the Protheans. Chorban's message said ABOUT 50,000 years, not EXACTLY 50,000 years.

You wanted in-game, I gave you in-game, and you still discount it. If you want to keep debating this, knock yourself out.

[AlanC9]

TurianRebel212 wrote...

Or not, and just video games and stuff. MOAR "Bahd rieting" and pl0t holezzz.

It's probably the latter.

Yep. It is.

[Invisible Man]

TurianRebel212 wrote...

In all seriousness.

The Leviathan told them. Either by one of it's thralls or the orbs that are scattered throughout the galaxy. Like the orb on Elentania in ME1.

The Prothean constructed their crucible and did the same things that Shepard's cycles did...... Except they chose, shall we say, poorly.

Hence what the "Catalyst" tells Shepard about synthesis...... "We have tried it BEFORE, it is something that cannot be forced". See, great liars and manipulators mix a little truth in with their lies.

The Derpy Prothean picked synthesis.... Hence Ilos and the HUMAN number and letters on Ilos......

Yeah.

Also... When the Catalyst is chatting up Shep, it say's "you are the first ORGANIC to be here".... Meaning, that there were others that made it to the decision chamber, but.....

They were synthetic or highly augmented with synthetic tech....

Now, put your thinking caps on and go back to ME2, the Collectors, and the Convo with Mordin about Collectors....





Or not, and just video games and stuff. MOAR "Bahd rieting" and pl0t holezzz.

It's probably the latter.

shepard was highly augmented, the starbrat said so itself. so if it considered shepard organic, what does it take to be synthetic or augmented if shepard isn't?

[shodiswe]

BeastSaver wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
If you have LotSB DLC, then you see yahg on sur'kesh where the brutes are supposed to be. So they did take the yahg and turn them into brutes. The only reason this has not been acknowledged is for one, not playing LotSB means you don't see Yahgs. So for those who don't know what a yahg is, it is confusing. You only know what a yahg is if you play LotSB. Also, they needed to do something with the krogan because they didn't. But brutes are yahgs. They fill the slot perfected. They move like yahgs. Yahgs are substituted where brutes are not if you have the DLC. And krogans aren't reaperized but neither are salarians, though saliarians wouldn't be very good reapers as they are frail. Krogans however would be excellent. Asari aren't reaperized either, which is weird except if you realize that Asari worlds were not attacked until later. But they did want the ardat-yakshi, which is kind of weird because it's not really a well known thing but reapers managed to focus on them. Kind of a plot weak point there and given how many banshees you do encounter, either that monastary was massive and most of the banshees were taken or it's just bad writing with no logic to it.

Except, from the Codex entry for Brutes: "The brute is a hulking amalgamation of turian and krogan victims of the Reapers."

The turian head, which looks nothing like the yahg, should've been a dead giveaway.

The only thing brutes share with yahg is animation recycling. And that's hardly binding in-universe.

As for not seeing them in ME3 if you didn't do Shadow Broker, is this confirmed? I haven't found anything of the sort. Not that it would mean any more than not seeing Kasumi if you didn't do Stolen Memory.

BeastSaver wrote...
You're still not convincing me that I'm wrong, and obviously you REALLY want the Yahg to be spared. Not going to beat this dead horse any longer. Enjoy your game!

*shrug. It's just in-game evidence + logic. Makes no difference to me if you refuse to accept it.

Incidentally do you have any support for your theory other than your own interpretation of a "standardized" cycle?

ME2 in-game message from Chorban, who you help scan the Keepers in ME:

"I hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign!

You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheans! It may have been made by something far older, with the keepers as organic guardians. And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react to...something, some signal or something...about every 50 thousand years. You can measure genetic variances; it's a bit like comparing rings on a tree to see the drought years.

Whoever did this...well, around the last time this signal went off would be around the time the Protheans disappeared. And it's scheduled to go off sometime around now. If any of the old tech still works, they could have some nasty surprises waiting for us.

Just thought you'd want to know. Nobody here on the Citadel will listen to me."


As far as the Yahg on Sur'kesh are concerned, they are still there whether or not you play LotSB. IIRC, the difference is you know what they are if you did, you don't know what they are if you didn't. They are there because the Salarians are considering uplifting them like they did the Krogan.

It's probably another powergrab by that "EVIL" Dalatrass. She's even trying ot manipulate the political landscape and cares about the Krogans when the whole Galaxy is about to get snuffed out... Seriously, after learning that the Reapers are exterminatign the galaxy and that they have done s oa thousand times... Then the Krogans would be the least of her concerns. Since, realisticly, the galaxy is doomed anyway, she should go all in on saving her people rather than trying to secure more power for herself.

[RydeCrash]

JasonShepard wrote...

Pretty much as the title says - when did the Protheans find out about the Reapers? Where in the game is it stated that they did?

I ask because the ME-wiki page on the Protheans (here) says that they knew the Reapers were coming before they arrived. Of course, the wiki is  fan-made, so that could be a mistake. But if the Protheans did know that the Reapers were coming, then it damages other aspects of the plot. The whole point of the Reaper ambush is that they sweep through the Citadel Relay with the element of surprise.


Suppose the Protheans knew that an advanced ancient race was planning to return and wipe them out. Surely someone would start viewing the advanced ancient Relays and Citadel with suspicion. How did they fall for the Reaper Citadel trap if they had even more warning than us?

Javik stats in ME3 (Briefly unfortunately) That Illos was the home world of the Inusannon, and with their technology the Protheans where uplifted by it. The Inusannon being the dominate race 50,000 before the Protheans. Granted the small fragment of details Bioware gives us drives us to “Assume” a fair bit with our own logic.
 
(IMO) The Inusannon data and technology would take time to decipher and implement. I derived that the Protheans where better equipped to understand the Inusannon data enabling them to implement it faster into their culture.
 
From game information the Protheans where at war with the Reapers for roughly a 100 years, comparing the speed that the Reapers drive through our galaxy it was not going to take anywhere near that time to harvest the Council Races.
 
My answer to the OP, the Protheans where aware of the Reapers 3-5 generations before their arrival. This is supported by the fact the Protheans where at war for 100 years with the Reapers. The only way a culture could maintain that war time length is by knowing well in advance it’s on the way. Also the “Join the Empire, or Die” didn’t hurt their cause as well.
 
Ryde…

[RangerSG]

RydeCrash wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

Pretty much as the title says - when did the Protheans find out about the Reapers? Where in the game is it stated that they did?

I ask because the ME-wiki page on the Protheans (here) says that they knew the Reapers were coming before they arrived. Of course, the wiki is  fan-made, so that could be a mistake. But if the Protheans did know that the Reapers were coming, then it damages other aspects of the plot. The whole point of the Reaper ambush is that they sweep through the Citadel Relay with the element of surprise.


Suppose the Protheans knew that an advanced ancient race was planning to return and wipe them out. Surely someone would start viewing the advanced ancient Relays and Citadel with suspicion. How did they fall for the Reaper Citadel trap if they had even more warning than us?

Javik stats in ME3 (Briefly unfortunately) That Illos was the home world of the Inusannon, and with their technology the Protheans where uplifted by it. The Inusannon being the dominate race 50,000 before the Protheans. Granted the small fragment of details Bioware gives us drives us to “Assume” a fair bit with our own logic.
 
(IMO) The Inusannon data and technology would take time to decipher and implement. I derived that the Protheans where better equipped to understand the Inusannon data enabling them to implement it faster into their culture.
 
From game information the Protheans where at war with the Reapers for roughly a 100 years, comparing the speed that the Reapers drive through our galaxy it was not going to take anywhere near that time to harvest the Council Races.
 
My answer to the OP, the Protheans where aware of the Reapers 3-5 generations before their arrival. This is supported by the fact the Protheans where at war for 100 years with the Reapers. The only way a culture could maintain that war time length is by knowing well in advance it’s on the way. Also the “Join the Empire, or Die” didn’t hurt their cause as well.
 
Ryde…

Umm no. The Protheans were not uplifted by the Inusannon. "Uplifted" in the ME Universe is a specific term for "Given Interstellar Spaceflight Technology" (Ie, Krogan, Protheans and their subjects). The Protheans FOUND Ilos on their own. Certainly they made use of what they learned there. But it was not the means by which they became a space-faring people. Or Ilos would've been their homeworld, and no amount of efforts clearing the Citadel archives would've kept the Reapers from finding it. 

I doubt the Protheans were aware of the "Reapers" at all. In fact Javik hints at this himself when he says, "Then the Reapers came, and we found out machines had surpassed us long ago."

They were aware of the inherent risk of synthetic life. They were aware SOMETHING caused extinction events. But they did not know. Could not know, that the Reapers remained a real threat. For all they knew, whatever caused the extinctions was itself destroyed. At most, they had broad inferences of the cycle.

[Anduin The Grey]

BeastSaver wrote...

Anduin The Grey wrote...

I don't see what you expect humans to do in 20k years that the Leviathan can't do. The Catalyst was created by the Leviathan and is much an AI as humans are animals.

I'm not following. The Leviathans have been around since the beginning, so I don't see what they have to do with the conversation, particularly since they are hiding. That tells me that they can be overwhelmed if attacked by enough Reapers.

As for the humans, if the Reapers had attacked 2,000 years earlier and they had been spared, they would have found the cache on Mars and eventually "discovered" the Citadel, which the Keepers would adapt to suit them. Then, if the 50,000 years was the norm, they would have an incredible amount of time to become really advanced, spread across the galaxy, and create AIs. Even if they only had 20,000 years, that's still a long time.

In any case, my theory is that, even had the Reapers attacked 2,000 years earlier, humans (and the Yahg) would not have been left alive, since they were too far advanced.

Your last paragraph makes absolutely no sense.

As for putting my argument another way, you expect Humans to advance to a technological level surpassing the Reapers in 20,000 years but the Leviathan cannot and have not advanced with 37 million years?

Let me put it this way, say if 37 million years ago Humans dominated the galaxy and created the Catalyst to ensure that AI's created by the lesser advanced races did not consume the universe but it betrays and harvests them to make the first Reaper, the survivors go into hiding until they can find a solution. How advanced would Humans be after 37 million years in hiding?