I was watching a video that discussed the endings. The commentator replayed a section claiming the Catalyst is smirking at the choice made. Since the Catalyst is visually so transparent, it is difficult to definitively tell.
The Catalyst could be made more transparent be being less transparent. In other words, reskinned. I don't know the feasibility of this. But given the modding that people have been able to accomplish, maybe it's not too labor intensive? Could it be just a matter of copying and renaming the skin of the Catalyst's human inspiration? Even just a solid (monochrome) skin would help better read the Catalyst's expressions.
If the Catalyst is reskinned, could someone post the videos (featuring the reskinned Catalyst in the original and Extended Cut endings)? I think regardless of how one already interprets the endings, a reskinned Catalyst could still be of some interest.
Exposing the Catalyst (Reskinning)
Débuté par
Solomon Gunn
, févr. 20 2014 10:06
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#2
Posté 20 février 2014 - 10:13
Eterna
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His facial expression is irrelevant because shortly afterwards you are given an Epilogue that shows everything is fine.
You are looking for hidden motivations where none exist.
You are looking for hidden motivations where none exist.
Modifié par Eterna5, 20 février 2014 - 10:13 .
#3
Posté 20 février 2014 - 10:17
Excella Gionne
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The Catalyst for Control already says that it is forced to accept being overwritten by Shepard's conscience. Plus, EC does contradict most pre-EC speculations.
#4
Posté 20 février 2014 - 11:02
AlanC9
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In the earliest leaked script outline there's no hint of any such deception. If they were ever thinking along those lines they dropped the idea before dialogue writing, and therefore it was dropped long before animating those dialogues.
Modifié par AlanC9, 20 février 2014 - 11:02 .
#5
Posté 20 février 2014 - 11:39
SwobyJ
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I thought it might be a smirk..
But the more I look at it, it seems more like a head tilt of curiosity.
But the more I look at it, it seems more like a head tilt of curiosity.
#6
Posté 21 février 2014 - 01:36
69_Gio_69
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The child is personification of indoctrination. If you cannot understand such a simple principle than you don't understand storytellling.
#7
Posté 21 février 2014 - 02:17
AlanC9
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69_Gio_69 wrote...
The child is personification of indoctrination. If you cannot understand such a simple principle than you don't understand storytellling.
So Bio were lying to each other in the leaked script outline? Or is that supposed to have been a plant?
#8
Posté 21 février 2014 - 02:32
69_Gio_69
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Where are they lying to themselves in the leaked script?
Modifié par 69_Gio_69, 21 février 2014 - 02:43 .
#9
Posté 21 février 2014 - 02:44
ImaginaryMatter
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69_Gio_69 wrote...
Where are they lying to thereselfs in the leaked script?
He was being sarcastic. In the script there is no mention of an Indoctrination attempt.
#10
Posté 21 février 2014 - 02:58
69_Gio_69
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So because it is not mentioned in a leaked script, it can't be true? Riiight..
It is obvious:
a. The child is first seen in a ventilation shaft and suddenly disappears with a reaper growl.
b. Then the child pops up in all your dreams.
What do the writers want to tell us with this? THE CHILD IS NOT REAL. As I said before, if you cannot comprehend this you don't understand storytelling.
It is obvious:
a. The child is first seen in a ventilation shaft and suddenly disappears with a reaper growl.
b. Then the child pops up in all your dreams.
What do the writers want to tell us with this? THE CHILD IS NOT REAL. As I said before, if you cannot comprehend this you don't understand storytelling.
#11
Posté 21 février 2014 - 03:10
ImaginaryMatter
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69_Gio_69 wrote...
So because it is not mentioned in a leaked script, it can't be true? Riiight..
It is obvious:
a. The child is first seen in a ventilation shaft and suddenly disappears with a reaper growl.
b. Then the child pops up in all your dreams.
What do the writers want to tell us with this? THE CHILD IS NOT REAL. As I said before, if you cannot comprehend this you don't understand storytelling.
The child is supposed to represent all the people Shepard couldn't save, he feels guilt about the child. It was poorly done but that's what BioWare went with, the artbook description for the child confirms this.
It is important that the writers never intended for any sort of Indoctrination attempt to have been placed in the game. The Final Hours app also talks about how they considered putting it into the game but opted out of it. The development team has shown no sign of placing an Indoctrinated Shepard into the game, what you're seeing is your own interpretation.
#12
Posté 21 février 2014 - 03:27
AlanC9
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Maybe that post is supposed to be an example of indoctrination rather than an actual argument?
#13
Posté 21 février 2014 - 03:50
TurianRebel212
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So lets just go from point A to point B to C to D and so on. Step by step, with a face value interpretation of ME3 and the Catalyst.
Now, first we need to start at a common understanding of a few things about the Catalyst, Shepard and the Reapers, again remember that this is face value interpretations of things-
The Reapers are the main villain and big baddies (literally 2 KM tall, lol) of the Series. Reapers used indoctrination to control very powerful and influential people- TIM, Saren, Benezzia and so on.
Okay now that's the Reapers and those are facts about the Reapers- They are the series main villains, they are huge, and they indoctrinate very powerful and influential entities.
The Catalyst embodies the Reapers collective intelligence (Hence why it's called the "intellegence" by those that created it (The Leviathan).
The catalyst WAS CREATED... By organics, lol. Leviathan are organics that live under the sea. They also look an awfully like Sovie and Harby and pals.
The Catalyst controls the Reapers, they are it's "solution" to the Organic and synthetic conflict. The "chaos" that we always here when chatting up a Reaper.
During the final choice and ascending to the infamous "decision chamber", Shepard meets the Catalyst. The Catalyst takes the form of the "child" from Earth during the prologue of ME3.
This said Child also died on Earth. This "event" has caused Shepard to have recurring "dreams" of the child. Running through a forest while Shepard chases the child and then the child burns in fire at the end of every dream while facing the player/Shepard. The last dream Shepard and the Child burn. And "Shepard" watches himself/herself burn after hugging the child and embracing the child. Both "Shepard" and the child burn in fire while looking at the player/Shepard.
Shepard returned to Earth, brought all the fleets and military might of the Galaxy. To retake Earth and use the Crucible to defeat the Reapers. Shepard Brought all the major military and resources of the galaxy to one place-there was even an achievement or this, lol. (Delivering most of the galaxies resources I believe it was called)
Harbinger Led the Invasion of Earth. And has been at Earth during the ENTIRE game and Reaper War of ME3.
Harbinger is the Reaper protecting the "beam"... Or is it conduit??? I get confused cause sometimes it's the beam and sometimes it's the conduit. It appears on Screen as the "conduit" but Anderson say's its the Beam, but EDI calls it the conduit, James calls it the beam..... So It's the conduit I guess... Or beam, or whatever. Its' something. Anyway's it teleports things to the citadel from London. Shepard and pals with the remaining forces of Hammer and Anderson make a last ditch charge to the beam to board the citadel and activate the crucible when it's docked with it- (as this is what the crucible needs to fire- Docking with Citadel and the "catalyst").
This is, in effect, the end of ME3.
Now, time for reaching inevitable conclusions to things.
-So the Catalyst takes the form of the child.
-The same child is in Shepard's dreams.
- No one knows what the child looks like other than Shepard.
-The Catalyst is the collective mind of the Reapers.
-The catalyst controls the Reapers and they are it's creation.
-The child is from Shepards dreams.
-The Catalyst takes the form of the Child from Shepards Dreams-this is a fact and it's important.
Okie Dokie.... Here we go with FACTS-
With said information. Is it logical if not a FACT. That if the Catalyst takes the form of the child from Shepard Dreams-(Dreams are a subconscious state with increased beta waves remember). And the "catalyst" embodies the collective mind of the Reapers and they are it's solution.......
Is it safe to reach the interpretation that because the Catalyst embodies the Reapers collective mind. And Shepards dreams are of the child. And the Catalyst takes the form of the child.
The Catalyst and thus the Reapers have access to Shepard subconscious.
BTW, what do Reapers really like to do to organics other than you know, kill them and "ascend them"????
And that is what I call.
flipping the face value interpretation of ME3 right on it's face with good ole' FACTS...
Kinda a Red Herring huh?
Side note and also, yet another fact.
The ending song that is played during the final credits of ME3 is a brilliant tune by Faunts called, Das Malefitz, it's a German phrase. Translated it means, The Evil Deed.
And that's really bout it.
Just pick a "path". The paths are "open" but you must choose. So just choose one. Probably don't really matter at all. The next games won't have Shepard or anything to do with the Shepard Saga and original trilogy. BioWare has said this over and over again.
And I always take BioWare at their word. They have never misguided or "lied" about Mass Effect before. Never.
Now, first we need to start at a common understanding of a few things about the Catalyst, Shepard and the Reapers, again remember that this is face value interpretations of things-
The Reapers are the main villain and big baddies (literally 2 KM tall, lol) of the Series. Reapers used indoctrination to control very powerful and influential people- TIM, Saren, Benezzia and so on.
Okay now that's the Reapers and those are facts about the Reapers- They are the series main villains, they are huge, and they indoctrinate very powerful and influential entities.
The Catalyst embodies the Reapers collective intelligence (Hence why it's called the "intellegence" by those that created it (The Leviathan).
The catalyst WAS CREATED... By organics, lol. Leviathan are organics that live under the sea. They also look an awfully like Sovie and Harby and pals.
The Catalyst controls the Reapers, they are it's "solution" to the Organic and synthetic conflict. The "chaos" that we always here when chatting up a Reaper.
During the final choice and ascending to the infamous "decision chamber", Shepard meets the Catalyst. The Catalyst takes the form of the "child" from Earth during the prologue of ME3.
This said Child also died on Earth. This "event" has caused Shepard to have recurring "dreams" of the child. Running through a forest while Shepard chases the child and then the child burns in fire at the end of every dream while facing the player/Shepard. The last dream Shepard and the Child burn. And "Shepard" watches himself/herself burn after hugging the child and embracing the child. Both "Shepard" and the child burn in fire while looking at the player/Shepard.
Shepard returned to Earth, brought all the fleets and military might of the Galaxy. To retake Earth and use the Crucible to defeat the Reapers. Shepard Brought all the major military and resources of the galaxy to one place-there was even an achievement or this, lol. (Delivering most of the galaxies resources I believe it was called)
Harbinger Led the Invasion of Earth. And has been at Earth during the ENTIRE game and Reaper War of ME3.
Harbinger is the Reaper protecting the "beam"... Or is it conduit??? I get confused cause sometimes it's the beam and sometimes it's the conduit. It appears on Screen as the "conduit" but Anderson say's its the Beam, but EDI calls it the conduit, James calls it the beam..... So It's the conduit I guess... Or beam, or whatever. Its' something. Anyway's it teleports things to the citadel from London. Shepard and pals with the remaining forces of Hammer and Anderson make a last ditch charge to the beam to board the citadel and activate the crucible when it's docked with it- (as this is what the crucible needs to fire- Docking with Citadel and the "catalyst").
This is, in effect, the end of ME3.
Now, time for reaching inevitable conclusions to things.
-So the Catalyst takes the form of the child.
-The same child is in Shepard's dreams.
- No one knows what the child looks like other than Shepard.
-The Catalyst is the collective mind of the Reapers.
-The catalyst controls the Reapers and they are it's creation.
-The child is from Shepards dreams.
-The Catalyst takes the form of the Child from Shepards Dreams-this is a fact and it's important.
Okie Dokie.... Here we go with FACTS-
With said information. Is it logical if not a FACT. That if the Catalyst takes the form of the child from Shepard Dreams-(Dreams are a subconscious state with increased beta waves remember). And the "catalyst" embodies the collective mind of the Reapers and they are it's solution.......
Is it safe to reach the interpretation that because the Catalyst embodies the Reapers collective mind. And Shepards dreams are of the child. And the Catalyst takes the form of the child.
The Catalyst and thus the Reapers have access to Shepard subconscious.
BTW, what do Reapers really like to do to organics other than you know, kill them and "ascend them"????
And that is what I call.
flipping the face value interpretation of ME3 right on it's face with good ole' FACTS...
Kinda a Red Herring huh?
Side note and also, yet another fact.
The ending song that is played during the final credits of ME3 is a brilliant tune by Faunts called, Das Malefitz, it's a German phrase. Translated it means, The Evil Deed.
And that's really bout it.
Just pick a "path". The paths are "open" but you must choose. So just choose one. Probably don't really matter at all. The next games won't have Shepard or anything to do with the Shepard Saga and original trilogy. BioWare has said this over and over again.
And I always take BioWare at their word. They have never misguided or "lied" about Mass Effect before. Never.
#14
Posté 21 février 2014 - 03:56
69_Gio_69
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I also just 'interpreted' the reaper sound right?
Your statement is wrong. The writers only said in the final app that they removed the indoctrination mechanic because it was to hard to implement. Nowhere is stated that the whole concept of Shepard being indoctrinated was removed. Maybe you should think about WHY they would consider putting a mechanic like that in the endgame if they didn't want to use a indoctrination attempt in the first place. Doesn't really add up, does it?
Also your other statement doesn't contradict mine. The child can be a representation of everything you did not save AND be inside your head at the same time.
I got another statement for you from the writers: they litteraly said that indoctrination is a viable option. I would go even farther to say that they made it completely obvious, but some people only believe something if it is litteraly spelled out to them and shoved in their faces.
Indoctrination is the main weapon of the Reapers. It has been one of the most important plot points in all the games. All the enemies we have faced where indoctrinated. Saren and TIM are exceedingly interested in it and even represent the two WRONG choices. When you choose Destroy or Synthesis, Shepard becomes a synthetic with those robotic eyes like Saren and TIM. Destroy doesn't and has the only ending were he lives. And best of them all Synthesis is essentially the same solution as a Reaper (synthethics get understanding of organics, organics will be perfected (reapers are the pinnacle of evolution)).
It is just that obvious. There are a lot more clues, but these ones are just so in your face, in my opinion, you would be blind to not see it.
Your statement is wrong. The writers only said in the final app that they removed the indoctrination mechanic because it was to hard to implement. Nowhere is stated that the whole concept of Shepard being indoctrinated was removed. Maybe you should think about WHY they would consider putting a mechanic like that in the endgame if they didn't want to use a indoctrination attempt in the first place. Doesn't really add up, does it?
Also your other statement doesn't contradict mine. The child can be a representation of everything you did not save AND be inside your head at the same time.
I got another statement for you from the writers: they litteraly said that indoctrination is a viable option. I would go even farther to say that they made it completely obvious, but some people only believe something if it is litteraly spelled out to them and shoved in their faces.
Indoctrination is the main weapon of the Reapers. It has been one of the most important plot points in all the games. All the enemies we have faced where indoctrinated. Saren and TIM are exceedingly interested in it and even represent the two WRONG choices. When you choose Destroy or Synthesis, Shepard becomes a synthetic with those robotic eyes like Saren and TIM. Destroy doesn't and has the only ending were he lives. And best of them all Synthesis is essentially the same solution as a Reaper (synthethics get understanding of organics, organics will be perfected (reapers are the pinnacle of evolution)).
It is just that obvious. There are a lot more clues, but these ones are just so in your face, in my opinion, you would be blind to not see it.
#15
Posté 21 février 2014 - 04:02
AlanC9
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You still haven't answered my question.
Since the endings don't involve indoctrination in the leaked outline, at what point did the writers decide to change the meaning of those endings? Or are you arguing that their intent isn't relevant, and it's indoctrination because indoctrination is just so cool that it has to be true?
Since the endings don't involve indoctrination in the leaked outline, at what point did the writers decide to change the meaning of those endings? Or are you arguing that their intent isn't relevant, and it's indoctrination because indoctrination is just so cool that it has to be true?
Modifié par AlanC9, 21 février 2014 - 04:04 .
#16
Posté 21 février 2014 - 04:12
69_Gio_69
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I have never read the leaked script. Does the script talk about a disappearing child? Dreams with a child in it, the meaning of those dreams, Shepard having robot eyes in Synthesis and Control ending?
Edit: I just looked at the leaked script, the ending is not talked about that extensively. I can't understand how you can base the assumption that they wheren't thinking about indoctrination, on that script. One sentence had my attention though:
"Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the reapers".
So in synthesis you become one with the reapers. Little different than what the extended cut gave us and is closer to my own interpretation.
Also as I said before, in the Final Hours App the writers talked about a indoctrination mechanism in end of the game. So the idea was going through their minds at least. So it isn't like you are suggesting that it wasn't planned at all.
Rather than looking at a leaked script, i would look at what is presented to us in the acctual game if you wan't to come with different arguments. One thing is for sure: the leaked script is different, than the end result. How different it is, at least intention wise, we will never know.
Edit: I just looked at the leaked script, the ending is not talked about that extensively. I can't understand how you can base the assumption that they wheren't thinking about indoctrination, on that script. One sentence had my attention though:
"Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the reapers".
So in synthesis you become one with the reapers. Little different than what the extended cut gave us and is closer to my own interpretation.
Also as I said before, in the Final Hours App the writers talked about a indoctrination mechanism in end of the game. So the idea was going through their minds at least. So it isn't like you are suggesting that it wasn't planned at all.
Rather than looking at a leaked script, i would look at what is presented to us in the acctual game if you wan't to come with different arguments. One thing is for sure: the leaked script is different, than the end result. How different it is, at least intention wise, we will never know.
Modifié par 69_Gio_69, 21 février 2014 - 04:35 .
#17
Posté 21 février 2014 - 04:12
friezen
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69_Gio_69 wrote...
I also just 'interpreted' the reaper sound right?
Your statement is wrong. The writers only said in the final app that they removed the indoctrination mechanic because it was to hard to implement. Nowhere is stated that the whole concept of Shepard being indoctrinated was removed. Maybe you should think about WHY they would consider putting a mechanic like that in the endgame if they didn't want to use a indoctrination attempt in the first place. Doesn't really add up, does it?
Also your other statement doesn't contradict mine. The child can be a representation of everything you did not save AND be inside your head at the same time.
I got another statement for you from the writers: they litteraly said that indoctrination is a viable option. I would go even farther to say that they made it completely obvious, but some people only believe something if it is litteraly spelled out to them and shoved in their faces.
Indoctrination is the main weapon of the Reapers. It has been one of the most important plot points in all the games. All the enemies we have faced where indoctrinated. Saren and TIM are exceedingly interested in it and even represent the two WRONG choices. When you choose Destroy or Synthesis, Shepard becomes a synthetic with those robotic eyes like Saren and TIM. Destroy doesn't and has the only ending were he lives. And best of them all Synthesis is essentially the same solution as a Reaper (synthethics get understanding of organics, organics will be perfected (reapers are the pinnacle of evolution)).
It is just that obvious. There are a lot more clues, but these ones are just so in your face, in my opinion, you would be blind to not see it.
Honestly, yes, you did just interpret the reaper sound. There were no less than five reapers in Vancouver at the time and you're saying that they were completely silent during the entire scene? The "evidence" you bring up about Shepard's eyes during control and synth can be refuted just as easily. You're totally entitled to your beliefs about indocrination, but don't say that the opinions of others are wrong based simply on extremely flimsy evidence.
#18
Posté 21 février 2014 - 04:33
69_Gio_69
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Are you seriously suggesting those reaper noises came from OUTSIDE?? Sorry I am not going to argue something like that. If you really wan't to believe that, be my guest.
Also if it is so easy to refute my other argument, then do it. Not just say that you can do it..
Also if it is so easy to refute my other argument, then do it. Not just say that you can do it..
Modifié par 69_Gio_69, 21 février 2014 - 04:38 .
#19
Posté 21 février 2014 - 04:45
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Yes, I think it came from outside. The sound was muffled so a natural conclusion is that it came from one of the reapers hanging around (one of which you can see not five seconds earlier). And since you want me to, Shepard's eyes were replaced by cybernetics at the beginning of Mass Effect 2. The eyes that you see during the control and synth endings are just the generic model for cybernetic eyes and Shepard has always had them (since ME2 - you can see the same eyes during a renegade run without doing the surgery when Shepard's body begins to reject the implants and thus they become more prevelant). Yes, TIM has them, but so does EDI.
#20
Posté 21 février 2014 - 04:48
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Just a note, I don't want to sound like I'm arguing with you, I just don't want you to use speculations as hard evidence and basis for denying every other theory out there.
#21
Posté 21 février 2014 - 04:57
69_Gio_69
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You do know that his eyes are normally red and not blue right? Plus, EDI doesn't have those eyes. You are mistaken.
If you think those noises came from outside that's fine with me. But I would suggest you look at that scene again. Notice how the noise is exactly timed with the moment Shepard is being called by Anderson. If you think that is coincidence, then you are one of the people I speak of.
If you think those noises came from outside that's fine with me. But I would suggest you look at that scene again. Notice how the noise is exactly timed with the moment Shepard is being called by Anderson. If you think that is coincidence, then you are one of the people I speak of.
#22
Posté 21 février 2014 - 05:04
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I feel like what I'm about to say is going to fall on deaf ears, but check EDI's eyes in-game. You'll see that they have the same three-pronged pattern as TIM and Shepard. Regardless, I'm done. You think I'm stubborn and don't understand storytelling and I think the same about you so I'm not going to waste my time anymore.
#23
Posté 21 février 2014 - 05:15
sH0tgUn jUliA
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Ooo this looks like fun. So how does reaper sound travel in a vacuum?
#24
Posté 21 février 2014 - 05:17
Han Shot First
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AlanC9 wrote...
69_Gio_69 wrote...
The child is personification of indoctrination. If you cannot understand such a simple principle than you don't understand storytellling.
So Bio were lying to each other in the leaked script outline? Or is that supposed to have been a plant?
The script doesn't exist. You're indoctrinated.
Modifié par Han Shot First, 21 février 2014 - 05:21 .
#25
Posté 21 février 2014 - 05:29
69_Gio_69
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Dear friezen. It is not that your arguments are falling into deaf ears. Frankly, they are just not that convincing. If you say EDI's eyes are the same, ofcourse I will look at them before I post that they are not. I looked at them on youtube and they are different. Yes they have the pattern, but so does renegade shepards. That doesn't make them the same as Saren's, TIM's and Ending Shepard's.
Also, you don't respond to any counterargument I make. Are red eyes the same as blue? No response. The reaper noise appears when Anderson calls. No response. So in all fairness. Your ears are the ones who aren't listening. But, okay go waste your time somewhere else.
@ Han
Funny picture haha! To bad I already responded to the leaked script, otherwise it was even more funny! Or maybe it is extra funny that irronically that picture represents you.
Also, you don't respond to any counterargument I make. Are red eyes the same as blue? No response. The reaper noise appears when Anderson calls. No response. So in all fairness. Your ears are the ones who aren't listening. But, okay go waste your time somewhere else.
@ Han
Funny picture haha! To bad I already responded to the leaked script, otherwise it was even more funny! Or maybe it is extra funny that irronically that picture represents you.
Modifié par 69_Gio_69, 21 février 2014 - 05:32 .
