148 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

69_Gio_69 wrote...

I have never read the leaked script. Does the script talk about a disappearing child? Dreams with a child in it, the meaning of those dreams, Shepard having robot eyes in Synthesis and Control ending?

Edit: I just looked at the leaked script, the ending is not talked about that extensively. I can't understand how you can base the assumption that they wheren't thinking about indoctrination, on that script. One sentence had my attention though: 

"Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the reapers".

So in synthesis you become one with the reapers. Little different than what the extended cut gave us and is closer to my own interpretation.  

Also as I said before, in the Final Hours App the writers talked about a indoctrination mechanism in end of the game. So the idea was going through their minds at least. So it isn't like you are suggesting that it wasn't planned at all. 

Rather than looking at a leaked script, i would look at what is presented to us in the acctual game if you wan't to come with different arguments. One thing is for sure: the leaked script is different, than the end result. How different it is, at least intention wise, we will never know.

So, in endings where Shepard doesn't do so well (low EMS) he either makes the correct decision by default or automatically makes the wrong one based on the Collector base decision?

Edit: Also, robot eyes have never been a symptom of Indoctrination. They are cybernetics. Shepard who was resurrected by the Lazarus project through a large number of cybernetics presumably has cybernetic eyes as well. In the Control and Synthesis endings Shepard is being disintegrated, so the simplest explanation is that the robot eyes are the underlying technology being exposed.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 21 février 2014 - 05:49 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You really have to work hard to get the bad ending.

[ImaginaryMatter]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

You really have to work hard to get the bad ending.

With the multiplayer bonuses it's literally impossible on my account.

[69_Gio_69]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

69_Gio_69 wrote...

I have never read the leaked script. Does the script talk about a disappearing child? Dreams with a child in it, the meaning of those dreams, Shepard having robot eyes in Synthesis and Control ending?

Edit: I just looked at the leaked script, the ending is not talked about that extensively. I can't understand how you can base the assumption that they wheren't thinking about indoctrination, on that script. One sentence had my attention though: 

"Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the reapers".

So in synthesis you become one with the reapers. Little different than what the extended cut gave us and is closer to my own interpretation.  

Also as I said before, in the Final Hours App the writers talked about a indoctrination mechanism in end of the game. So the idea was going through their minds at least. So it isn't like you are suggesting that it wasn't planned at all. 

Rather than looking at a leaked script, i would look at what is presented to us in the acctual game if you wan't to come with different arguments. One thing is for sure: the leaked script is different, than the end result. How different it is, at least intention wise, we will never know.

So, in endings where Shepard doesn't do so well (low EMS) he either makes the correct decision by default or automatically makes the wrong one based on the Collector base decision?

No actually it is a little more complicated. I think that the crucible is one big test. If you look the word crucible up in the dictionary you get something like: 'severe test'. Also what is also notable is the fact that 'crucible' is a term also used in the marines. Which is also a severe training/test. Shepard so happens to be a marine. 

Now I think that the reapers are testing Shepard if he is worthy to 'become one with the reapers'. This is further strenghtend by the fact that the Catalyst says in the low EMS ending something like 'what are you doing here' and in high EMS 'wake up'. 

So in my view this is all indoctrination and Shepard isn't litteraly choosing to destroy, control or synthesise with the reapers, but in his head. In low EMS Shepard cannot actually survive. The catalyst also says that Shepard doesn't need hope (he doesn't have a choice). So in this view the choice isn't meaningfull. And Shepard just dies (destroy) or becomes a husk (control).  

[Han Shot First]

69_Gio_69 wrote...

@ Han 
Funny picture haha! To bad I already responded to the leaked script, otherwise it was even more funny! Or maybe it is extra funny that irronically that picture represents you. 

I was actually just making a general statement about indoctrination theorists, but if the shoe fits...

People who still believe in IT are burying their heads in the sand and refusing to see the mountain of evidence debunking their personal pet theory. It isn't in any version of the script. It isn't in the basic game. And it isn't in DLC. 

The Extended Cut DLC even disproves IT with the ending epilogues. Is indoctrinated Shepard hearing a Hackett or EDI monologue in his head?

Modifié par Han Shot First, 21 février 2014 - 06:54 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

Han Shot First wrote...

I was actually just making a general statement about indoctrination theorists, but if the shoe fits...

People who still believe in IT are burying their heads in the sand and refusing to see the mountain of evidence debunking their personal pet theory. It isn't in any version of the script. It isn't in the basic game. And it isn't in DLC. 

The Extended Cut DLC even disproves IT with the ending epilogues. Is indoctrinated Shepard hearing a Hackett or EDI monologue in his head?

I never had a problem with ITers if they wanted to scribble it in as their ending (I mean I go with Marauder Shields and that started from a meme). I just have the problem when they insist that it is the one true ending and everyone who doesn't agree is stupid or sheeple.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 21 février 2014 - 07:09 .

[AlanC9]

Han Shot First wrote...  

The Extended Cut DLC even disproves IT with the ending epilogues. Is indoctrinated Shepard hearing a Hackett or EDI monologue in his head?

Synthesis is even weirder. Shep thinks he's been disintegrated but he's hearing EDI talk anyway?

[AlanC9]

69_Gio_69 wrote...
I have never read the leaked script. Does the script talk about a disappearing child? Dreams with a child in it, the meaning of those dreams, Shepard having robot eyes in Synthesis and Control ending?

The dreams are in, yes; pretty much as shot, though they originally intended the burning people to disintegrate into ash. The child doesn't appear in the opening sequence yet except for a mention that he dies in it somehow, and the specific form of the GUARDIAN -- not yet the Catalyst at this point -- is not discussed.

So the kid really is what sensible people have always figured he was -- a ham-handed attempt at emotional impact. Since they had the model anyway, they slapped a hologram skin onto him and used him for the Catalyst.

Edit: I just looked at the leaked script, the ending is not talked about that extensively. I can't understand how you can base the assumption that they wheren't thinking about indoctrination, on that script. One sentence had my attention though: 

"Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the reapers".

Just so everyone else can see it, here's the whole segment from the outline:

CUTSCENE:The platform Shepard was on begins to rise up into GUARDIAN's garden where he is faced with his final decision.The fight ends with Shepard near death… and the Crucible docking with the Citadel. Bloodied and wounded, Shepard stumbles for the controls… and collapses (END03 Begins).....
CONVERSATION:Once Shepard reaches the top of the elevator he begins a conversation with GUARDIAN where all the mysteries of the universe are revealed.
ACTION:Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers.
CUTSCENE:The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard leaps off the edge of the platform becoming one with the Reapers.
CUTSCENE:The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard places his hands into the control mechanism and gains control over the Reapers. Earth is destroyed, and the Reapers leave.
CUTSCENE:The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is also Destroyed.
CUTSCENE:The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard places his hands into the control mechanism and gains control over the Reapers. Earth is okay, and the Reapers leave.
CUTSCENE:The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is devastated.
CUTSCENE:The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is okay.
CUTSCENE:The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is okay. Shepard survives.

Straight-up literalism. Shepard really does gain control over the Reapers. Or are you arguing that Bio's staff were lying to each other?

Rather than looking at a leaked script, i would look at what is presented to us in the acctual game if you wan't to come with different arguments. One thing is for sure: the leaked script is different, than the end result. How different it is, at least intention wise, we will never know.

Ah, yes... isn't this the part where you're supposed to say "it's subtle," or something like that?

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 février 2014 - 07:43 .

[shodiswe]

Having the collective inteligence and knowledge of the reapers isn't nessesarily the same as having a hivemind.
It's more likely it downloaded the knowledge of each harvested species.

Longrange operation of a hivemind would be prohibitng and inefficient for the Catalyst.

As for speculating about indoctrination where it isn't mentioned, that would be pointless.

[69_Gio_69]

@Alan
I would like it if you would respond to everything I say and not just parts. Why does it say in the leaked script that in synthesis Shepard becomes one with the reapers? Or is that actually what happens in the ending? Than the whole EC aftermath with those pictures doesn't make sense, does it?

Furthermore, I don't understand how this disproves my statement. For instance, the part where Shepard becomes one with the reapers is also changed in the literal sense. So by your reasoning, they were lying to themselves (lol?).

Now, like I said before, it is just a leaked script. It isn't even exactly the same as the final game, so it is just stupid as to base such certain conclusions on them. Or am I being too subtle now?

Edit: (overlooked this part)
The dreams are in, yes; pretty much as shot, though they originally intended the burning people to disintegrate into ash. The child doesn't appear in the opening sequence yet except for a mention that he dies in it somehow, and the specific form of the GUARDIAN -- not yet the Catalyst at this point -- is not discussed.

So the kid really is what sensible people have always figured he was -- a ham-handed attempt at emotional impact. Since they had the model anyway, they slapped a hologram skin onto him and used him for the Catalyst.

Another weird conclusion that is totally not reconcilable with the facts. So there is no mention of the catalyst form, no mention of the kid in the ventilation shaft and then you want to base conclusion on such a script? Half of my arguments are based on those pieces of content and they weren't even mentioned yet in that script. Now, you can't possibly use this incomplete writings as a counterargument as it is clear that in this script the role of the child is much smaller.  

Modifié par 69_Gio_69, 21 février 2014 - 01:05 .

[jstme]

This is exactly why you don't end the kind of story ME trilogy was telling for 99.9% of time in foreign ,vague, metaphysical, speculation inducing manner.
Because otherwise years after the release there are many people who are still grasping for straws in order to find peace with the way Mass Effect story was slaughte... concluded.
I really hope people in Bioware will learn that lesson and not go a-la Microsoft with trying to force feed failed ideas.

[69_Gio_69]

It isn't 'grasping at straws' it is obvious.

[AlanC9]

69_Gio_69 wrote...

It isn't 'grasping at straws' it is obvious.

If it was obvious your theory wouldn't be as unpopular as it is.

[SwobyJ]

Well this thread was fun to read, but not as fun as this sandwich I'm gonna eat!

[AlanC9]

69_Gio_69 wrote...
 Why does it say in the leaked script that in synthesis Shepard becomes one with the reapers? Or is that actually what happens in the ending? Than the whole EC aftermath with those pictures doesn't make sense, does it? 
Furthermore, I don't understand how this disproves my statement. For instance, the part where Shepard becomes one with the reapers is also changed in the literal sense. So by your reasoning, they were lying to themselves (lol?).

No. My position is that becoming one with the Reapers was always intended to be a good thing. The presentation in the endgame was an attempt to make that clearer. It's only available if Shepard has a perfect game. You're actually proposing that Bio would only let Shepard fail with a perfect game, and if the player does worse he automatically wins?

If you want to keep believing your fantasy that Bio cooked up indoctrination late in the process, there's nothing I have to say about it. You can't reason a man out of a position he wasn't reasoned into. My only point here is that we've never found any evidence that Bio ever considered this nonsense when we look outside the game, sny more than we find such evidence inside it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 février 2014 - 04:44 .

[69_Gio_69]

AlanC9 wrote...

69_Gio_69 wrote...
 Why does it say in the leaked script that in synthesis Shepard becomes one with the reapers? Or is that actually what happens in the ending? Than the whole EC aftermath with those pictures doesn't make sense, does it? 
Furthermore, I don't understand how this disproves my statement. For instance, the part where Shepard becomes one with the reapers is also changed in the literal sense. So by your reasoning, they were lying to themselves (lol?).

No. My position is that becoming one with the Reapers was always intended to be a good thing. The presentation in the endgame was an attempt to make that clearer. It's only available if Shepard has a perfect game. You're actually proposing that Bio would only let Shepard fail with a perfect game, and if the player does worse he automatically wins?

If you want to keep believing your fantasy that Bio cooked up indoctrination late in the process, there's nothing I have to say about it. You can't reason a man out of a position he wasn't reasoned into. My only point here is that we've never found any evidence that Bio ever considered this nonsense when we look outside the game, sny more than we find such evidence inside it.

1. Are the pictures shown in the end of people turned into a reaper? No they are not. So can I conclude that you are only literal when it suits you, or that you don't believe in the literal ending either? And if so, you are going by your own interpretation (fantasy).  
2. No, I am not saying that when you have a perfect game you get the bad ending. The highest EMS ending you can get is Destroy + Shepard Alive, I think you forgot about that one. 
3. We actually did found 'evidence' that they at least thought about an indoctrination attempt like I said before. In the final hours app the writers said that they were thinking about a indoctrination mechanism were the player would lose control of his Shepard, but it was to hard to implement.
4. The clues of Shepard being indoctrinated are everywhere. The only thing the game doesn't do is let a person say: "Hey shepard, your indoctrinated!". You need to combine the very very obvious clues. Like the child that disappears in the vent with reaper noises, giving you self doubt and than popping up in dreams. And in the end the same kid being the ultimate reaper suggesting you to become one with the other reapers (the same thing you are fighting against!).   

[Han Shot First]

Arguing with indoctrination theorists is like arguing with a creationist. They have the same close-minded zeal for their personal pet theory, inconvenient facts be damned.

[69_Gio_69]

Thanks for your contribution Han. Much appreciated!

[Village_Idiot]

IT can't be proved or disproved, thanks to its basis on completely irrational evidence. To quote Saren: "Are we allowing dreams as evidence now? How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony?"

I think it's a bat**** insane theory personally. It has one solid basis in the fact indoctrination exists in the MEverse, but everything else is just interpretation and conjecture. 
Ultimately though, there's no mileage in trying to either prove or debunk it.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 21 février 2014 - 07:05 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

69_Gio_69 wrote...

4. The clues of Shepard being indoctrinated are everywhere. The only thing the game doesn't do is let a person say: "Hey shepard, your indoctrinated!". You need to combine the very very obvious clues. Like the child that disappears in the vent with reaper noises, giving you self doubt and than popping up in dreams. And in the end the same kid being the ultimate reaper suggesting you to become one with the other reapers (the same thing you are fighting against!).   

The problem is you're assuming discrepancies (or clues as you call them) = Indoctrination. I'm sure there's a name for whatever logical fallicy this is, but it's similar to saying that because something isn't green it must be purple.

But more importantly, there actually are a lot of things we know about Indoctrination that we see through journals, talking to people, and the Codex. Is Shepard experiencing these symptoms? The answer is... Nope. The dreams themselves are very different than what every other Indoctrinated dream has been. Additionally, out of the several physical symptoms of Indoctrination Shepard is experiencing none of them.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 21 février 2014 - 07:13 .

[Kabooooom]

Wow. This thread degenerated fast. The original topic was - a) could someone reskin the Catalyst and would this elucidate facial expressions that are unclear because of its shimmery transparency (irrelevant to IT, although certainly IT was implied by the OP).

The answer to both questions is 'yes'.

I also agree with the OP in that I would find this interesting purely from the perspective of being able to see the Catalyst better. It'd have nothing to do with IT and everything to do with mere curiosity. Now, recommence the tired old flame war that no one should care about anymore.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 21 février 2014 - 07:32 .

[69_Gio_69]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

69_Gio_69 wrote...

4. The clues of Shepard being indoctrinated are everywhere. The only thing the game doesn't do is let a person say: "Hey shepard, your indoctrinated!". You need to combine the very very obvious clues. Like the child that disappears in the vent with reaper noises, giving you self doubt and than popping up in dreams. And in the end the same kid being the ultimate reaper suggesting you to become one with the other reapers (the same thing you are fighting against!).   

The problem is you're assuming discrepancies (or clues as you call them) = Indoctrination. I'm sure there's a name for whatever logical fallicy this is, but it's similar to saying that because something isn't green it must be purple.

But more importantly, there actually are a lot of things we know about Indoctrination that we see through journals, talking to people, and the Codex. Is Shepard experiencing these symptoms? The answer is... Nope. The dreams themselves are very different than what every other Indoctrinated dream has been. Additionally, out of the several physical symptoms of Indoctrination Shepard is experiencing none of them.

The thing Bioware did in this game isn't something revolutionary. There are tons of games and movies who build their content the same way as Mass effect does. Not all entertainment content needs to be 'straight into your face' to understand it. Although I would agree that the execution could be much better. 

Your statement that much is known about HOW indoctrination works, is actually not true. And it is certainly not explained how indocatrination dreams work. So I don't understand how you can say that Shepards dreams are different from indoctrination dreams. 

Physical symptoms are also there. Strange you didn't notice them. He has a black out (Shepard has one dream were he was looking at his pad moments before), has headaches (after every dream), sees ghostly presences (kid) and hears reaper noises (if you put on your headset you can clearly hear them in certain places). And it is made pretty clear that he's losing it for the first time, which is  

I know there are a lot of minor clues (and there are a lot more). But, in my opinion, the kid itself is the most obvious one. Writers don't just put disappearing kids in a vent, in dreams and than let it be the ultimate 'enemy' for no reason. Espeacially if their biggest power is to indoctrinate people.  

[ImaginaryMatter]

69_Gio_69 wrote...

The thing Bioware did in this game isn't something revolutionary. There are tons of games and movies who build their content the same way as Mass effect does. Not all entertainment content needs to be 'straight into your face' to understand it. Although I would agree that the execution could be much better. 

Your statement that much is known about HOW indoctrination works, is actually not true. And it is certainly not explained how indocatrination dreams work. So I don't understand how you can say that Shepards dreams are different from indoctrination dreams. 

Physical symptoms are also there. Strange you didn't notice them. He has a black out (Shepard has one dream were he was looking at his pad moments before), has headaches (after every dream), sees ghostly presences (kid) and hears reaper noises (if you put on your headset you can clearly hear them in certain places). And it is made pretty clear that he's losing it for the first time, which is  

I know there are a lot of minor clues (and there are a lot more). But, in my opinion, the kid itself is the most obvious one. Writers don't just put disappearing kids in a vent, in dreams and than let it be the ultimate 'enemy' for no reason. Espeacially if their biggest power is to indoctrinate people.  

Even the in game characters have an understanding of Indoctrination. Every time a Reaper artifact is encountered in ME3 there is always mention of how evaluations and worker shifts are conducted to avoid and detect Indoctrination.

And Vendetta doesn't ever detect that Shepard is Indoctrinated.

[Obadiah]

Solomon Gunn wrote...

I was watching a video that discussed the endings.  The commentator replayed a section claiming the Catalyst is smirking at the choice made.  Since the Catalyst is visually so transparent, it is difficult to definitively tell.

The Catalyst could be made more transparent be being less transparent.  In other words, reskinned.  I don't know the feasibility of this.  But given the modding that people have been able to accomplish, maybe it's not too labor intensive?  Could it be just a matter of copying and renaming the skin of the Catalyst's human inspiration?  Even just a solid (monochrome) skin would help better read the Catalyst's expressions.

If the Catalyst is reskinned, could someone post the videos (featuring the reskinned Catalyst in the original and Extended Cut endings)?  I think regardless of how one already interprets the endings, a reskinned Catalyst could still be of some interest.

I guess you could try with a texmod reskin. That's the only successful reskins I've seen. Check the Fan Creation section. That's where most of that work is discussed.

Modifié par Obadiah, 21 février 2014 - 11:27 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
Even the in game characters have an understanding of Indoctrination. Every time a Reaper artifact is encountered in ME3 there is always mention of how evaluations and worker shifts are conducted to avoid and detect Indoctrination.

And Vendetta doesn't ever detect that Shepard is Indoctrinated.

You're both missing the obvious answer:

None of us ever actually finished Mass Effect 3.

The ME3 application included Reaper Code which indoctrinated us into believing that we played a game with a crappy ending, but in fact we all died sitting at our computers and consoles - the ending was just a way to confuse us so we wouldn't notice that we were about to be harvested, and the Catalyst is now simulating the BSN for our harvested memories to see how we react to all this and if it can use our reactions to prevent future organic/synthetic conflicts.

I know this is true, because my microwave oven was programmed with a prothean VI and briefly broke through the indoctrination to tell me this.
































(Before anybody calls the police or something - yes, I'm kidding.)

Modifié par FlyingSquirrel, 21 février 2014 - 11:09 .