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[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Does ITers still ignore the datapad message after the stargazer scene that flat out tells the player that the Reapers were defeated and Shepard became a legend?

Modifié par Lizardviking, 24 février 2014 - 12:44 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

That whole thing with the kid was to show Shepard's downward spiral leading up to Thessia and Kai Leng where Shepard finally crashes in total defeat. Shepard has the 10 minute retirement. Then there's the brief "world of cardboard" of "I'm back" and then goes and kicks ass on Sanctuary. That's what it was all about.

However, the last dream foreshadowed your death... "you gonna die, sucka."

That's what they were about.

[SwobyJ]

Lizardviking wrote...

Does ITers still ignore the datapad message after the stargazer scene that flat out tells the player that the Reapers were defeated and Shepard became a legend?

Maybe other ITers, but at least not me.

The Reapers were defeated and Shepard became a legend. Of course he did. (not sarcasm)

That's what ME3 was. Taking Earth Back.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 24 février 2014 - 01:39 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

Lizardviking wrote...

Does ITers still ignore the datapad message after the stargazer scene that flat out tells the player that the Reapers were defeated and Shepard became a legend?

That was part of the Indoctrination, obviously.

[_aLucidMind_]

It is fairly obvious the dreams were originally intended to be indoctrination ATTEMPTS, not that Shepard was indoctrinated (this is made clear when Vendetta does not detect it). The oily shadows the Rachni depicted are there, the Reaper roars are there, along with several other signs that indicate indoctrination. Not to mention Shepard holding their head like they're having a migraine at times when they hear a Reaper roar when they're awake (including those times when s/he is in the Normandy, nowhere near any Reapers).

Everything in the game is as they happened, but it is very obvious that Shepard was being indoctrinated but through willpower was able to keep the Reapers from establishing enough of a foothold to begin fully indoctrinating. Sort of like how you can feel feverish before you are sick with the flu; the virus is already inside you, but your immune system is suppressing it enough to keep it from affecting you.

I can't understand how anyone cannot see how Shepard is being indoctrinated but hasn't become indoctrinated.

Modifié par _aLucidMind_, 24 février 2014 - 02:47 .

[SwobyJ]

Because BSN Lucid.

[ImaginaryMatter]

_aLucidMind_ wrote...

It is fairly obvious the dreams were originally intended to be indoctrination ATTEMPTS, not that Shepard was indoctrinated (this is made clear when Vendetta does not detect it). The oily shadows the Rachni depicted are there, the Reaper roars are there, along with several other signs that indicate indoctrination. Not to mention Shepard holding their head like they're having a migraine at times when they hear a Reaper roar when they're awake (including those times when s/he is in the Normandy, nowhere near any Reapers).

Everything in the game is as they happened, but it is very obvious that Shepard was being indoctrinated but through willpower was able to keep the Reapers from establishing enough of a foothold to begin fully indoctrinating. Sort of like how you can feel feverish before you are sick with the flu; the virus is already inside you, but your immune system is suppressing it enough to keep it from affecting you.

I can't understand how anyone cannot see how Shepard is being indoctrinated but hasn't become indoctrinated.

Except you can't resist Indoctrination through will power because it is a physical effect on the brain. Plus, the stuff in the dream has plenty of other reasonable explanations for things besides Indoctrination.

[Han Shot First]

The dreams were just a manifestation of PTSD and survivor's guilt IMO. I don't see them as having any link to indoctrination.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 24 février 2014 - 07:04 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

Han Shot First wrote...

The dreams were just a manifestation of PTSD and survivor's guilt IMO. I don't see them as having any link to indoctrination.

This.

Long before ME3 came out, I wrote this journal being kept by "my" Shepard through the events of ME and ME2. When he came back from death, he had reocurring nightmares of the Normandy crash and his death. One of the last dreams before things go back to normal is seeing Ashley and chasing after her before waking -- very similar to how the game did it. Anyone who'd interpret them to be an "indoctrination attempt" would be flat-out wrong. They were bad dreams, nothing more.

Especially considering many pre-release quotes about ME3 being a more emotional experience than its 1 and 2, is it really so hard to believe that Shepard was simply suffering nightmares, or do people need it to be something more convoluted?

[Invisible Man]

to me the dreams seemed to suggest indoctrination, though I chalked it down to well, shepard knows that exposure to reaper tech causes indoctrination and his/her subconscious is making shep dream about it knowing shepard has been exposed to a lot of reaper tech, though s/he isn't actually being indoctrinated in the dreams themselves.

---edit
if  you were in shepard's place wouldn't you be thinking somewhere in your head, gee... I've been around a lot of reaper tech, am I still me?

Modifié par Invisible Man, 24 février 2014 - 07:43 .

[SwobyJ]

Wait HYR, they're just dreams because you wrote a headcanon about having bad dreams?

[His Name was HYR!!]

SwobyJ wrote...

Wait HYR, they're just dreams because you wrote a headcanon about having bad dreams?

No, I was just responding to the nonsense claim that Shepard's bad dreams are "fairly obvious" indoctrination, as if to say that normal bad dreams are out-of-the-question for someone who has been through what Shepard has been through.

I saw fit to write such a thing long ago, and it was not indoctrination. Is it far-fetched to believe BW saw fit to do the same thing as well? They were going for a more emotional experience in ME3, and this was just one of many ways they provided, IMO.


To say nothing of the evidence for such a claim. Reaper horns, as if Shepard wouldn't have bad dreams of them normally. Oily shadows? Pfft. It's dream state. Joker rubbed grease on EDI's cameras once. Did her resulting vision indicate indoctrination?

[SwobyJ]

That's right - it's dream state.

[Han Shot First]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Wait HYR, they're just dreams because you wrote a headcanon about having bad dreams?

No, I was just responding to the nonsense claim that Shepard's bad dreams are "fairly obvious" indoctrination, as if to say that normal bad dreams are out-of-the-question for someone who has been through what Shepard has been through.

That was probably the most common argument I saw against the dreams being linked to PTSD. It also happens to be the weakest. The people making those arguments don't understand how PTSD works. Repeated exposure to traumatic events doesn't make a person immune to post-traumatic stress, it makes them more susceptible. It also doesn't necessarily have to be the most traumatic event in a person's life that acts as a trigger.

I also think that argument is somewhat based on an out-of-date perception of PTSD as being sign of weakness. Some of them don't like the dreams being linked to PTSD because to them it would make their Shepard less 'bad@ss.' That of course ignores that it can happen to anyone, and it doesn't matter how tough or brave you are. Audie Murphy, the most decorated American soldier for bravery in World War Two, suffered from PTSD.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 24 février 2014 - 06:11 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

There was a time where it was considered that Bioware was going to do an indoctrination of Shepard but the mechanics were too difficult to pull off in the final scene. You felt Shepard was far enough out of your control as it was. It would have been worse. It was when we were looking at the ending as The Matrix since Hudson is a big fan of that series. The elevator takes Shepard to meet the Architect - the child. The Cycle has repeated itself more times than you can imagine. The Control and Synthesis endings would then be Reaper solutions where Shepard sacrifices enough of Humanity to build a human reaper for the Control ending (become a reaper) the Citadel returns and who knows what happens; and Synthesis where Shepard allows the cycle to reaperize the galaxy. Would we really know? The Golden Ending would be where Shepard survives. Speculations from the Original Ending. Then the EC came out and ended indoctrination theory.

The dreams are PTSD, plain and simple. The problem with the dreams is the kid. The writers didn't make the kid a compelling character. I didn't give a f*** about him. If they wanted a compelling character, they should have killed off Anderson in the EZ.

And less bad ass? I don't buy it. Our action hero Arnold had the 1000 yd stare at the end of Predator.

[SwobyJ]

I'll pick Control for the lulz aka to see what happens when the 'cooperative spirit' of Paragon leads somewhere. Maybe indoc, *shrug*. Maybe full literal Control of all Reapers, *shrug*..

 

But my interpretation at this point is more something in between. And probably fun to see!

 

That is, if there's more content in reference to it

[Farangbaa]

What about Vendetta not identifying Shepard as Indoctrinated?

 

There should be at least one of you crazy IT'ers who tries to come up with an even crazier explanation for this.

[SwobyJ]

There should be at least one of you crazy IT'ers who tries to come up with an even crazier explanation for this.

 

Shepard isn't indoctrinated on Thessia. There. Ooooo *waves hands around*

[Farangbaa]

Shepard isn't indoctrinated on Thessia. There. Ooooo *waves hands around*

 

Ah yes. So this 'slow' and 'subtle' proces quickly and suddenly manifestated itself after Thesia 

[SwobyJ]

Ah yes. So this 'slow' and 'subtle' proces quickly and suddenly manifestated itself after Thesia 

 

Nah that's IT, sure.

 

But I go even crazier lol.

 

I'll just say that in my view, Shepard is both under indoctrination while defeating it, in his own way, all at the same time, throughout all of ME3 at once.

 

Yeah, doesn't quite make sense when summarized on paper.

 

I guess another way of putting it is that I don't really think Shepard succumbed to indoctrination at all in the game, including the ending. Suffered from it, yes, but not succumbed.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Essentially what it boils down to is, the naysayers don't want to participate in the story in any way, and would rather sit around for 2 years and wait for the devs to just say the ending was indoctrination, than actually try and figure it out. Not really being constructive here. It's the constructive fans like us that thought about the story analytically and put the pieces of the puzzle together, constructively. Instead of the other ones who would rather just demand retcons and sit around waiting for answers and not be constructive or willing to participate in the story. In addition, bury their heads in the snow and not listen to anything anyone has to say.

 

Who are the naysayers here?

[AlanC9]

The dreams are PTSD, plain and simple. The problem with the dreams is the kid. The writers didn't make the kid a compelling character. I didn't give a f*** about him. If they wanted a compelling character, they should have killed off Anderson in the EZ.
 

 

The really weird thing is that the dreams are in the outline but the kid's introduction hasn't been written yet, even as an outline. He's supposed to be emotionally significant but his emotional significance is all TBD. I guess they were just working backwards from the symbolism and figured they'd get to it later.

[AlanC9]

Who are the naysayers here?

 

 

Anyone who hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid?