123 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
I don't think the Reapers contain the individuals the harvested individuals, just their DNA and history, their "essense". This is a bit of meta gaming but originally in ME2 (the files are still in the game) the Collectors were doing "destructive analyzing" to upload the human minds into the purely synthetic Reaper shell. The Feros arch also shows something similar with the Thorian and the Cipher. What the Reapers appear to be to me are basically flying mausoleums containing this Organic data and the individual Reapers that talk and operate the ship are some form of advanced VI created by the Catalyst to drive the whole thing. Perhaps the Reaper VI, like the advanced Vigil and Vendetta, are based off the "essense" of an absorbed race.

I don't see how the italed follows.

[ImaginaryMatter]

AlanC9 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
Also, as far as the Catalyst describes the Destroy beam it works by targetting Synthetics, "But be warned. The Crucible will not discriminate. All Synthetics will be targetted." It's never mentioned that it targets Reapers and Reaper technology specifically, merely that they will be destroyed along with varying degrees of collateral damage. Given that the Geth are not present in the Destroy epilogue scenes it's safe to say they were.

The EC does seem to have introduced an issue here, though. Does the Catalyst's "including the geth" line ever play now? It was originally optional since, of course, they might have been destroyed at Rannoch. I don't know if there's anything actually going on there except Bio botching the conditional in the EC, though . The geth certainly don't appear in EC slides under Destroy, as you say.

Ya, the Catalyst specifically calling out the Geth seems to be a pre-EC thing. I always thought the line, "all synthetics will be targetted" though was meant to specify that all AI would be included, as the Catalyst description of "synthetic" seems to specifically mean AI and not just technology in general.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 21 février 2014 - 06:27 .

[wright1978]

fchopin wrote...

I picked destroy but it had nothing to do with the geth, i would still pick destroy even if everything was destroyed in our galaxy as long as whoever came next was free to do what they wanted and were not slaves.

Yeah i'm equal parts Mel Gibson(FREEDOM) and Ahab(to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.)

[ImaginaryMatter]

AlanC9 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
I don't think the Reapers contain the individuals the harvested individuals, just their DNA and history, their "essense". This is a bit of meta gaming but originally in ME2 (the files are still in the game) the Collectors were doing "destructive analyzing" to upload the human minds into the purely synthetic Reaper shell. The Feros arch also shows something similar with the Thorian and the Cipher. What the Reapers appear to be to me are basically flying mausoleums containing this Organic data and the individual Reapers that talk and operate the ship are some form of advanced VI created by the Catalyst to drive the whole thing. Perhaps the Reaper VI, like the advanced Vigil and Vendetta, are based off the "essense" of an absorbed race.

I don't see how the italed follows.

Ya, I do take a lot of jumps here. Since I believe Reapers have no conscious mind as they are just the essense of the harvested race, they would basically be brain dead, albeit with all the information about the harvested race inside. Because of this they would need some sort of central unit to fly the Reaper shell and I figured the best option for the Catalyst would be to install a VI program that is solely obedient to the Catalyst.

[Jukaga]

In my canon play, the Geth are already dead so it's destroy. I gotta admit though in my alternate plays, I really, really like Renegade Control. Great ending sequence with some chilling music and Hale's robo-voiceover.

[FlyingSquirrel]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
I don't think the Reapers contain the individuals the harvested individuals, just their DNA and history, their "essense". This is a bit of meta gaming but originally in ME2 (the files are still in the game) the Collectors were doing "destructive analyzing" to upload the human minds into the purely synthetic Reaper shell. The Feros arch also shows something similar with the Thorian and the Cipher. What the Reapers appear to be to me are basically flying mausoleums containing this Organic data and the individual Reapers that talk and operate the ship are some form of advanced VI created by the Catalyst to drive the whole thing. Perhaps the Reaper VI, like the advanced Vigil and Vendetta, are based off the "essense" of an absorbed race.

How exactly are you defining "essence" here? I think there is something more there than just DNA and history, given the Catalyst's statement about being preserved in Reaper form when Shepard says that the Catalyst is taking away the future.

To be clear, I'm *not* arguing that the individual minds of members of the harvested species could somehow be reconstituted, just that the memories and values of the harvested races would form part of the new collective intelligence within each Reaper. Obviously, the Catalyst would have to suppress the resistance to being harvested that would arise from those memories and values, but if that suppression ends with Control or Synthesis, the Reapers' atittudes towards the harvests would likely change and, in most cases, lead them to cooperate with the rebuilding effort.

(Harbinger might have to be kept on a short leash at first, given that it was created from the Leviathans. So might whichever Reaper was created from the protheans if Javik is any indication.)

[von uber]

Conflating synthetic with ai doesn't work because that would mean that shepard is part ai.

So is there any actual reason to think the geth die?

[ImaginaryMatter]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

How exactly are you defining "essence" here? I think there is something more there than just DNA and history, given the Catalyst's statement about being preserved in Reaper form when Shepard says that the Catalyst is taking away the future.

"Essence" doesn't have a definition. I only use the word because that's how it was descibed in ME2, the, "essence of a species".

[Iakus]

von uber wrote...

Conflating synthetic with ai doesn't work because that would mean that shepard is part ai.

So is there any actual reason to think the geth die?

There are no Destroy slides with the geth.

If you side with the quarians and pick Destroy, Rannoch is abandoned.

Not to mention teh Catalyst specifically says "All synthetic life will be targetted"

[von uber]

iakus wrote...

There are no Destroy slides with the geth.

If you side with the quarians and pick Destroy, Rannoch is abandoned.

Not to mention teh Catalyst specifically says "All synthetic life will be targetted"

There is no destory slide with miranda, yet it is assumed she survives.
If you get peace between the Geth and Quarians, Rannoch isn't abandoned.
He says you are part synthetic, but you are not targeted. He also says you will not lose anything that has already been lost.

So to me there is nothing conclusive that they die.

[ImaginaryMatter]

von uber wrote...

Conflating synthetic with ai doesn't work because that would mean that shepard is part ai.

So is there any actual reason to think the geth die?

For the most part when the Catalyst uses the word "synthetic" it seems like it is referring to things that have a capacity for self-determination and are artificially made, that only seems to apply to AIs.

[CronoDragoon]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

For the most part when the Catalyst uses the word "synthetic" it seems like it is referring to things that have a capacity for self-determination and are artificially made, that only seems to apply to AIs.

The for the most part is kind of the problem though. He refers to Shepard being in peril, too, and Shepard as far as we know just has implants.

Shepard VI clone confirmed?

[Iakus]

von uber wrote...

There is no destory slide with miranda, yet it is assumed she survives.
If you get peace between the Geth and Quarians, Rannoch isn't abandoned.
He says you are part synthetic, but you are not targeted. He also says you will not lose anything that has already been lost.

So to me there is nothing conclusive that they die.

There are Destroy slides for Miranda.  A bug keepsthe nonromanced one from firing in most cases

If you make peace on Rannoch, the quarians survive

Shepard dies in any Destroy ending less than 3100.  It is hinted that Shepard survives at higher levels.  But is still quite frakked up

[themikefest]

iakus wrote...

There are Destroy slides for Miranda.  A bug keepsthe nonromanced one from firing in most cases

Can that be said about Jack as well?  I've never seen her in a slide when I pick destroy.

[Iakus]

themikefest wrote...

iakus wrote...

There are Destroy slides for Miranda.  A bug keepsthe nonromanced one from firing in most cases

Can that be said about Jack as well?  I've never seen her in a slide when I pick destroy.

Yes, it's for both Miranda and Jack.

Edit:  specifically nonromanced Miranda and Jack

Modifié par iakus, 21 février 2014 - 08:55 .

[von uber]

I always get the priiiiiiizzzzzzeeeeeee teaching the students.

[SporkFu]

I really liked how the geth evolved as a race throughout the trilogy, and I like EDI anyway. That voice... ahem, anyway, even though they all get the short end of things, I opt for a destroy ending the majority of the time. If they all survived that just makes the choice easier.

[KotorEffect3]

Stopping the cycle is my top priority and the best way to ensure that it ends is to destroy the reapers. I view the geth much like I view the fate of the Bahak system in arrival. It is unfortunate they have to die but it is necessary to save everybody else. There is no guarantee that the reapers won't go back to reaping in control or synthesis. And refuse accomplishes nothing.

[RangerSG]

iakus wrote...

von uber wrote...

Conflating synthetic with ai doesn't work because that would mean that shepard is part ai.

So is there any actual reason to think the geth die?

There are no Destroy slides with the geth.

If you side with the quarians and pick Destroy, Rannoch is abandoned.

Not to mention teh Catalyst specifically says "All synthetic life will be targetted"

Yeah, but the Catalyst also says SHEPARD will be included, as he's partly synthetic. 

But that isn't true. So we know the Catabrat isn't right about how the Destroy mechanism works. The only question is degree. Absence of Evidence is not evidence of absence. There's no proof the Geth are destroyed in High EMS.

[KotorEffect3]

RangerSG wrote...

iakus wrote...

von uber wrote...

Conflating synthetic with ai doesn't work because that would mean that shepard is part ai.

So is there any actual reason to think the geth die?

There are no Destroy slides with the geth.

If you side with the quarians and pick Destroy, Rannoch is abandoned.

Not to mention teh Catalyst specifically says "All synthetic life will be targetted"

Yeah, but the Catalyst also says SHEPARD will be included, as he's partly synthetic. 

But that isn't true. So we know the Catabrat isn't right about how the Destroy mechanism works. The only question is degree. Absence of Evidence is not evidence of absence. There's no proof the Geth are destroyed in High EMS.

Here is the thing,  just how dependant was Shepard on his cybernetics?  They enhanced his abilities but did he need them to survive?  I am sure they were key in bringing him back but once he is back and functioning how necessary were they for surivival?

[RangerSG]

TheOneTrueBioticGod wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

TheOneTrueBioticGod wrote...

Wait, wait, wait. 

What else could possibly be wrong with destroy besides that?

-- Shepard's limbs are sundered, with no viable replacements ready without synthetic tech intact. Better off dead IMO.
-- The Volus all die, which further screws over your galactic economy.
-- The Reapers go to waste (refer to my sig quote). I'd even argue the sacrifice of those civilizations does as well.

That's not to say the Geth/EDI's deaths aren't a factor at all, but the least important one.

Destroy just sucks.

I'll make it simple. 

Destroy: Anderson, Liara, Garrus, Tali?, Vega, VS, Samara, Miranda, Jacob, Thane, Wrex, Grunt, Hackett, Victus, Aria, Cortez, Traynor, Jack, Kasumi, Zaeed, the Asari, the Turians, the Salarians, the Alliance, the Volus, the Quarians(probably), the Hanar, the Elcor, the Batarians, Terminus fleet, the Leviathans, etc

Control: Timmy, Kai Leng, Cerberus

Synthesis: EDI, Joker, the Geth, Saren

Destroy Collector Base: the whole ME2 squad.

Save Collector Base: TIM, Shepard (if chosen, ofc).

End result: saving the base benefits the player more than destroying it.


What you've invoked is the Bandwagon Fallacy. "Two million people can't be wrong." Well actually yes, they can be.

I'd also dispute your assumption on some characters choosing Destroy, but that's beside the point.

What I've envoked is that Shepard has absolutely no right to go aginst what the rest of the Galaxy has trusted him to do, and especially no right to take control of the reapers or forcibly alter their entire genetic structure. And why would the Volus die? Their suits wouldn't malfunction; no reaper tech and no cybernetics in those, unless you can prove otherwise. 

I think you've made a valid argument. Shepard's crew repeatedly trusts him to RID the galaxy of the Reapers. Not to turn them into his own arm of Galactic Enforcers. You've spent all of ME3 fighting against TIM's vision of controlling the Reapers. The crew is convinced TIM is cracked, as is Hackett. And not to mention "control" comes from someone Indoctrinated! You can trust that's going to work? Seriously? Why? Because the God of your enemies says so? *facepalm*

As for Synthesis, it is the most grotesque violation of sapient rights ever imagined by anyone not the Catabrat. Forceably altering the DNA of every member of every race, regardless of convictions, desires, or even basic compatability. As giddy as EDI is, I could easily see this being the route to mass destruction. That many people feeling violated? There will be blood.

[RangerSG]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

iakus wrote...

von uber wrote...

Conflating synthetic with ai doesn't work because that would mean that shepard is part ai.

So is there any actual reason to think the geth die?

There are no Destroy slides with the geth.

If you side with the quarians and pick Destroy, Rannoch is abandoned.

Not to mention teh Catalyst specifically says "All synthetic life will be targetted"

Yeah, but the Catalyst also says SHEPARD will be included, as he's partly synthetic. 

But that isn't true. So we know the Catabrat isn't right about how the Destroy mechanism works. The only question is degree. Absence of Evidence is not evidence of absence. There's no proof the Geth are destroyed in High EMS.

Here is the thing,  just how dependant was Shepard on his cybernetics?  They enhanced his abilities but did he need them to survive?  I am sure they were key in bringing him back but once he is back and functioning how necessary were they for surivival?

We don't know. We know the Catabrat thought them significant enough to use them as a threat against Destroy. From there you have to guess its motives. My Shepards are never terribly convinced that believing the leader of your enemy as far as you can throw it is a good idea. 

Just how much Synthetic triggers the Destroy? It doesn't say. Or is it even right to say "synthetic" there at all, or is conflating all Synthetic life into "Reaper-based life"? 

EDI is toast, the wall of the Normandy confirms that. Everything beyond that is conjecture off the slides, which is not enough material to guess every contingency from anyway.

But to think the Volus are dead is absurd. The Quarians have essentially the same level of cybernetics as the Volus, and yet are clearly seen to be alive.

Modifié par RangerSG, 21 février 2014 - 10:43 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
I don't think the Reapers contain the individuals the harvested individuals, just their DNA and history, their "essense". This is a bit of meta gaming but originally in ME2 (the files are still in the game) the Collectors were doing "destructive analyzing" to upload the human minds into the purely synthetic Reaper shell. The Feros arch also shows something similar with the Thorian and the Cipher. What the Reapers appear to be to me are basically flying mausoleums containing this Organic data and the individual Reapers that talk and operate the ship are some form of advanced VI created by the Catalyst to drive the whole thing. Perhaps the Reaper VI, like the advanced Vigil and Vendetta, are based off the "essense" of an absorbed race.

I don't see how the italed follows.

Ya, I do take a lot of jumps here. Since I believe Reapers have no conscious mind as they are just the essense of the harvested race, they would basically be brain dead, albeit with all the information about the harvested race inside. Because of this they would need some sort of central unit to fly the Reaper shell and I figured the best option for the Catalyst would be to install a VI program that is solely obedient to the Catalyst.

You have described Marmalade Theory.

This is exactly how I see the Reapers. They harvest advanced organic life like we harvest berries and make a goop out of them and pump their remains into a shell that resembles their race. This goop has no consciousness. If it did, why would it immediately try to kill those out of whom it was made? No. The consciousness is some sort of advanced VI that is fully obedient to the Catalyst and tied to its control signal. What is in the shell is simply a genetic catalog of the race and nothing more.... until we activate the synthesis ending and it becomes partly synthetic and can interface with the VI program. 

"We preserve advanced organic life in Reaper form."

Inusannon Preserves
Leviathan Preserves
and now they try for Human Preserves....

But who made the Crucible? You would not know them and there isn't time to explain. ... but you control the reapers. You can make them stop for a little bit, can't you? 

I can, but I won't. I'm having too much fun and you're interrupting me. Let's ge on with this. The Crucible changed me. Opened new possibilities, but I can't make them happen.

But I can?

Yes.

...... stupid Leviathans.