174 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Good evening everyone. Just a few hours ago I had an absolutely crazy idea that I'm sure is going to go nowhere, or it does go somewhere it won't last very long, but I thought I'd give it a shot anyway.
So here's how this thread works. Things we've debated about in the past, mages and templars, elves regaining a homeland, should the surface offer more aid to the dwarves during peace times, blood magic itself, how City Elves are treated, and so on, are pretty well established by regular posters. 

Regular debaters would instantly recognize me as pro-mage, alongside Etheral Writer, Eluvianix, lobsel, Xil, and Youth4Ever (recent convert ) and pro-templars like Lotion, MisterJB, BlueMagiket, and others, but I thought I'd shake things up.

We can debate anything from elves, dwarves, mages and templars, but we have to debate from the opposite side we normally do.

So in this thread only, I would advocate the templar side and see how objective I could be, I would be more pro-elf than pro-dwarf than normal, I would argue on behalf of Orlais vs the Dales, I would be far more critical of the Mages in the circle and so on. 

But if someone normally debates on behalf of the templars, this is the thread for them to debate on behalf of the mages. If they criticize the Dalish in their war with Orlais, now is the time to support them, in this thread.

It's about seeing how open minded we can be, how objective we can look at the issues, and I thought it would be a fun change of pace.

Although, I hope no one brings up Merrill because then I would be forced to debate in a way to criticize her. ....

Let's have some fun. 

 

[CybAnt1]

Things I liked about DA2:

1) rune crafting that finally worked properly, was not tedious, and useful.
2) deep and interesting ability trees for both "base" and specialized abilities.
3) organize Junk automatically, sell it all with one button.
4) the really good gift giving system, with cutscenes of recognition.
5) the best Tactics (AI) system so far of any DA game.
6) Have I mentioned how the whole "unreliable narrator" shtick of Varric led to some interesting game events (even if they never actually happened)? They need to do that again, I really liked the "not getting a raw deal" scene.
7) the two DLC, Legacy and MotA, were of really good quality. Have I mentioned that I really liked the puzzle and stealth sequences of MotA?

Sorry, I not only reversed a typical stance of mine, I also reversed the intent of your thread.

Because that's just how I roll. :innocent:

Modifié par CybAnt1, 22 février 2014 - 06:03 .

[dragonflight288]

Nice.

Okay, let's see here.

Wow, thinking counter to what I normally do is tough. I guess I'll start with the elves of the Dales.

Hmm.

Racial tensions between the elves of the Dales and Orlais may have been amplified by the Dales refusal to deal in trade with Orlais, the codex on the Dales making it clear that they turned away traders and missionaries. While the Dalish did have the right to turn away the missionaries, they were the ones who struck the first blow in a confirmed attack on the town of Red Crossing, and so it can be said that they were the ones who started the war in which they lost.

[The Elder King]

 This seems interesting, but I first have to find a topic where I favoured a side. In both the mage-templars conflict and the Orlais/Chantry-Dales conflict I don't side with either factions.

[Nefla]

Women should get little to no recognition in marketing or advertising, straight white human males are awesome and we should get more, kossith is an applicable and non-confusing term, DA2 and ME3 were good games, hairstyles like the friar tuck and the pumpkin with stooge bangs are beautiful and there should be more like that, elves in DA2 looked healthy and believable, they should stay as they were in DA2, there should be as many cameos and returning companions as possible, the makeup options look great and any woman would gladly wear opaque white lipstick and radioactive orange eyeshadow, choices and consequences are overrated, everything should be more streamlined, there should be less story, less companions, less dialogue, and more killing exploding meat bags that drop from the sky...

Am I doing it right? XD

[HiroVoid]

Well, according to my recent textbooks, an argument means to have reasons behind your statements.

[Nefla]

HiroVoid wrote...

Well, according to my recent textbooks, an argument means to have reasons behind your statements.

I can't tonight, I have a headache. Reasons can wait!

[Big I]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Racial tensions between the elves of the Dales and Orlais may have been amplified by the Dales refusal to deal in trade with Orlais, the codex on the Dales making it clear that they turned away traders and missionaries. While the Dalish did have the right to turn away the missionaries, they were the ones who struck the first blow in a confirmed attack on the town of Red Crossing, and so it can be said that they were the ones who started the war in which they lost.

Lets not forget the whitewashing the Dalish gave their own history. Denying missionaries was clearly part of an attempt by their government to downplay the fact that Shartan, perhaps the most influential elven leader of the last thousand years, was a disciple of Andraste and a follower of the Chant.

Even today when Dalish historians mention Andraste it is only ever as human religious figure, ignoring Shartan and the generations of elves who believed in the Maker after him. Their pride would never allow them to do otherwise.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 22 février 2014 - 08:01 .

[ReadingRambo220]

Mages need leashes else they inevitably turn into abominations. Have you seen an abomination? They are uggggghhhh-lly

[Ieldra]

So...here's my moderate pro-Templar argument:

Mages are "always at the mercy of their sleeping minds", as it is said in DA2. It is not their fault, nor can they can always prevent it, but they can become possessed, and if they do, the result is disaster for everyone around them who isn't prepared, trained and equipped to fight them. Thus, the rationale of the templar order is to make sure that there are always such specially trained people around every mage, and that few innocents who would be killed are around if a mage becomes possessed.

Thus, the Circles. They are not a punitive measure, but a preventive one. As such, yes, it is deeply unfair to those who never become afflicted, but that unfairness must be measured against the risks and the result of failing to prevent an abomination from arising where no specially trained people to fight it are around. Even if such things happen only rarely, they will poison the minds of the common people against mages, and thus, the Circles also serve to prevent persecution of mages.

Is there a better solution? Maybe, but nobody has come up with one yet, and as long as this remains so, the Templars must continue to watch - and watch over - mages. It is not feasible to have every mage followed by templars if those mages can go anywhere, and because of that, the mages must be kept in the Circles.

(So, this wasn't too hard. I avoided the religious BS about "corruption" and suchlike, because I couldn't twist my mind enough for that)

[dragonflight288]

Ieldra2 wrote...

So...here's my moderate pro-Templar argument:

Mages are "always at the mercy of their sleeping minds", as it is said in DA2. It is not their fault, nor can they can always prevent it, but they can become possessed, and if they do, the result is disaster for everyone around them who isn't prepared, trained and equipped to fight them. Thus, the rationale of the templar order is to make sure that there are always such specially trained people around every mage, and that few innocents who would be killed are around if a mage becomes possessed.

Thus, the Circles. They are not a punitive measure, but a preventive one. As such, yes, it is deeply unfair to those who never become afflicted, but that unfairness must be measured against the risks and the result of failing to prevent an abomination from arising where no specially trained people to fight it are around. Even if such things happen only rarely, they will poison the minds of the common people against mages, and thus, the Circles also serve to prevent persecution of mages.

Is there a better solution? Maybe, but nobody has come up with one yet, and as long as this remains so, the Templars must continue to watch - and watch over - mages. It is not feasible to have every mage followed by templars if those mages can go anywhere, and because of that, the mages must be kept in the Circles.

(So, this wasn't too hard. I avoided the religious BS about "corruption" and suchlike, because I couldn't twist my mind enough for that)

True, and nice argument. 
I spent last night trying to think up an argument to support the Chantry having templars using lyrium and owning the monopoly on lyrium so templars have to go to the Chantry, something I have never defended before, so here I go.
The devs have confirmed that despite what Alistair says in Origins, lyrium is a requirement now for a templar to use their abilities. Even though templars in Tevinter exist, they don't take lyrium and as such they lack the capacity to neutralize magic like they do in other Andrastian societies. And since templars need lyrium as a way to keep rogue mages and mage criminals in check, and no other solution has presented itself, lyrium is what the templars have to use.

But the devs have not retconned what Alistair said about the templars being an army.

If the templars need lyrium, it is better not to have an army think up ways to gather the funds to purchase it themselves as that usually results in pillaging and plundering their way across the land, or become mercenaries and possibly forget the reason why they fight, as shown in real life history of armies going rogue or being more extreme in following their orders. The chantry on the other hand is a religion. They collect tithes, their priests are trusted by the commoners, they are supported by the nobility, and they are widespread.

By purchasing lyrium, they are in a better position to make sure templars and the circles get that lyrium as they can distribute it safely without the need for the violence that an army would use to gather funds.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Save Import system is one of the coolest things about Bioware games. It opens things up for such cool story telling opportunities! If Bioware were to ever get rid of it I would...


...nope. Can't do this. I'm out.

[dragonflight288]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Save Import system is one of the coolest things about Bioware games. It opens things up for such cool story telling opportunities! If Bioware were to ever get rid of it I would...


...nope. Can't do this. I'm out.

It doesn't have to be game mechanics but you can talk about the issues. If you don't want to do it, then that's perfectly fine. I just thought it would be a fun mental exercise to try and make logical arguments on the opposite side of issues we normally debate. 

[Mistic]

This thread can become a nice mental exercise. Let's go!

Many have criticized the so called "lyrium addiction". However, when you stop to think about it, the mere existence of the Mage-Templar War proves that the Chantry was right about the need for a way to keep a powerful magic army in check without the use of brute force.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

So...here's my moderate pro-Templar argument:

Mages are "always at the mercy of their sleeping minds", as it is said in DA2. It is not their fault, nor can they can always prevent it, but they can become possessed, and if they do, the result is disaster for everyone around them who isn't prepared, trained and equipped to fight them. Thus, the rationale of the templar order is to make sure that there are always such specially trained people around every mage, and that few innocents who would be killed are around if a mage becomes possessed.

Thus, the Circles. They are not a punitive measure, but a preventive one. As such, yes, it is deeply unfair to those who never become afflicted, but that unfairness must be measured against the risks and the result of failing to prevent an abomination from arising where no specially trained people to fight it are around. Even if such things happen only rarely, they will poison the minds of the common people against mages, and thus, the Circles also serve to prevent persecution of mages.

Is there a better solution? Maybe, but nobody has come up with one yet, and as long as this remains so, the Templars must continue to watch - and watch over - mages. It is not feasible to have every mage followed by templars if those mages can go anywhere, and because of that, the mages must be kept in the Circles.

(So, this wasn't too hard. I avoided the religious BS about "corruption" and suchlike, because I couldn't twist my mind enough for that)

True, and nice argument. 
I spent last night trying to think up an argument to support the Chantry having templars using lyrium and owning the monopoly on lyrium so templars have to go to the Chantry, something I have never defended before, so here I go.
The devs have confirmed that despite what Alistair says in Origins, lyrium is a requirement now for a templar to use their abilities. Even though templars in Tevinter exist, they don't take lyrium and as such they lack the capacity to neutralize magic like they do in other Andrastian societies. And since templars need lyrium as a way to keep rogue mages and mage criminals in check, and no other solution has presented itself, lyrium is what the templars have to use.

But the devs have not retconned what Alistair said about the templars being an army.

If the templars need lyrium, it is better not to have an army think up ways to gather the funds to purchase it themselves as that usually results in pillaging and plundering their way across the land, or become mercenaries and possibly forget the reason why they fight, as shown in real life history of armies going rogue or being more extreme in following their orders. The chantry on the other hand is a religion. They collect tithes, their priests are trusted by the commoners, they are supported by the nobility, and they are widespread.

By purchasing lyrium, they are in a better position to make sure templars and the circles get that lyrium as they can distribute it safely without the need for the violence that an army would use to gather funds.

Seeing as how the Templars seem to randomly strike up agreements with whatever orginization that happens to be lyrium smuggling in two of their main game appearences now i have a feeling that they will be well stocked quite well stocked for the imediate future. Not the mention the order has relatively deep pockets outside of the Chantry, when the Chantry was backing them they were neigh unlimited but they still posses relative finite wealth.

I just never got the agrument that they would resort to pillaging given that once withdrawl hits they wouldn't be able to fight regardless; Personally i think if the templars just "magically" shut down one day then people would rapidly realize just what a buffer they were.

._. By the way i like the idea of the thread i guess i can come up with some pro mage bs.

My soul was dying a little bit while i typed that 

[Klystron]

Mages should just man the #v[% up and learn how to enslave demons rather than living in constant fear of them. Think warlocks in WoW.

[dragonflight288]

 

Seeing as how the Templars seem to randomly strike up agreements with whatever orginization that happens to be lyrium smuggling in two of their main game appearences now i have a feeling that they will be well stocked quite well stocked for the imediate future. Not the mention the order has relatively deep pockets outside of the Chantry, when the Chantry was backing them they were neigh unlimited but they still posses relative finite wealth.

I just never got the agrument that they would resort to pillaging given that once withdrawl hits they wouldn't be able to fight regardless; Personally i think if the templars just "magically" shut down one day then people would rapidly realize just what a buffer they were.

I suppose the thought comes from so many examples in real life where an army loses its commander or goes rogue from the organization that previous funded them, or the commander disagrees with his superiors, and they end up raping and destroying their way across the countryside, as had been seen repeatedly. Whether Roman Legions, English and French forces in the 100 year war, and so on. Add in that an army marches on its stomach and even if they ration, they are feeding and supplying hundreds, maybe thousands of people. You need a LOT of supplies to keep everyone's bellies full. The Lyrium addiction adds another layer of complexity. It becomes a matter of logistics.

Right, I'm going to stop talking about that as I need to support templars in this thread.

._. By the way i like the idea of the thread i guess i can come up with some pro mage bs.

My soul was dying a little bit while i typed that 

Lol. I appreciate your willingness to try. I do know that if I have to criticize Merrill or call her stupid, I'm going to be feeling something quite similar since I've been defending her ever since DA2 came out. 

[Mistic]

Klystron wrote...

Mages should just man the #v[% up and learn how to enslave demons rather than living in constant fear of them. Think warlocks in WoW.

Exactly! Although the fear of demons is not without cause, the problem has been the way the matter has been investigated. Lack of knowledge is more dangerous than knowledge itself.

Asunder's revelations were achieved through great cost, but they changed completely the way Tranquility was udnerstood. If a powerful enough authority like the Chantry would give more resources for investigation, maybe a breakthrough could be made in just a few years, instead of centuries of fear, censoring and paranoia.

(Ok, this is definitely fun. It makes me think good arguments against my previous arguments).

Modifié par Misticsan, 22 février 2014 - 04:53 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Ahem

I constructed a fairly objective argument in my mind.

The current circle system has eclipsed the original's intent its now commands the authority of life and death and even while that authority was granted originally by all parties agreeing it would only be a method of last resort that's there a principle in the the message regardless unintended or no.

When you control not only the daily activities and allowance into the outside world but that of the very lives of the people you are protecting you are centralizing far too much control and power within one body with out anything there being to counteract it from being abused.

...I think i going to go lie down now i feel ill.

[dragonflight288]

Klystron wrote...

Mages should just man the #v[% up and learn how to enslave demons rather than living in constant fear of them. Think warlocks in WoW.

Ooh! Opportunity for me to criticize mages.  .....er...... that felt weird to say.

Now I've been a fan of Warcraft since the very first game came out. I was only a kid when my dad bought it to play, but I've been playing it and other strategy games for as long as I can remember. 

The problem with warlocks in WoW is that as a group, they generally do not care about others, only their own power. It was Warlocks on Draenor that enslaved the orcs to the Burning Legion. It was Warlocks who brought about the suffering of thousands of people, bringing demons into the world, creating cults that worshipped demons like the Cult of the Damned led by Arthas's lieutenant in Warcraft 3 before Arthas went insane and became a Death Knight.

Mages in the Dragon Age universe most certainly need to learn more about demons, but enslaving and summoning demons never works out. People who do that are either idiots like Wilhelm who got himself killed via Shale and thought it was a good idea to keep a Desire Demon locked in his basement and also make it so the wards would let his family down there without any safeguards to keep them from interacting with the demon. Or insane mages who want to bring about a new mage empire like Tahrone.

If there is any summoning of demons being done, it MUST be done with a contingent of templars watching the mage, with a very clear outline on what that mage wants to do with that research, including progress reports on achieving that goal. 

[dragonflight288]

 

Misticsan wrote....
(Ok, this is definitely fun. It makes me think good arguments against my previous arguments).

That's part of why I enjoyed the concept when I started the thread.  

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

 

Misticsan wrote....
(Ok, this is definitely fun. It makes me think good arguments against my previous arguments).

That's part of why I enjoyed the concept when I started the thread.  

It's a decent perspective expansive exercise i grant you but... Ugh.

It's difficult trying to be "pro mage freedom" ugh.

[Mistic]

dragonflight288 wrote...

If there is any summoning of demons being done, it MUST be done with a contingent of templars watching the mage, with a very clear outline on what that mage wants to do with that research, including progress reports on achieving that goal.

That's useless garbage. You either give the mages complete freedom to do what they must to do in order to improve their knowledge about magic, or you make sure they aren't a danger to anyone.

So far, only the Tevinter Imperium and the Qunari have the guts to do what must be done, even if their philosophies are radically different. I can respect that. In White Chantry lands, they're too worried about political correctness to make a brave decision, whatever it is. In the mage-templar conflict, there's no room for compromises. Trying to look for a compromise is perpetuating a failed status-quo. Anders understood that.

Modifié par Misticsan, 22 février 2014 - 05:09 .

[Klystron]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Klystron wrote...

Mages should just man the #v[% up and learn how to enslave demons rather than living in constant fear of them. Think warlocks in WoW.

Ooh! Opportunity for me to criticize mages.  .....er...... that felt weird to say.

Now I've been a fan of Warcraft since the very first game came out. I was only a kid when my dad bought it to play, but I've been playing it and other strategy games for as long as I can remember. 

The problem with warlocks in WoW is that as a group, they generally do not care about others, only their own power. It was Warlocks on Draenor that enslaved the orcs to the Burning Legion. It was Warlocks who brought about the suffering of thousands of people, bringing demons into the world, creating cults that worshipped demons like the Cult of the Damned led by Arthas's lieutenant in Warcraft 3 before Arthas went insane and became a Death Knight.

Mages in the Dragon Age universe most certainly need to learn more about demons, but enslaving and summoning demons never works out. People who do that are either idiots like Wilhelm who got himself killed via Shale and thought it was a good idea to keep a Desire Demon locked in his basement and also make it so the wards would let his family down there without any safeguards to keep them from interacting with the demon. Or insane mages who want to bring about a new mage empire like Tahrone.

If there is any summoning of demons being done, it MUST be done with a contingent of templars watching the mage, with a very clear outline on what that mage wants to do with that research, including progress reports on achieving that goal.

Yes, Wilhelm had the right idea but was in 'way over his head. 

If mages can be made tranquil, perhaps there is a way to tame a desire demon via a similar ritual.  Think of it!  your own personal desire demon, who does anything you ask.... 

Of course this will take considerable research, and a group of sympathetic Templars to contain any experimental accidents. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Misticsan wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

If there is any summoning of demons being done, it MUST be done with a contingent of templars watching the mage, with a very clear outline on what that mage wants to do with that research, including progress reports on achieving that goal.

That's useless garbage. You either give the mages complete freedom to do what they must to do in order to improve their knowledge about magic, or you make sure they aren't a danger to anyone.

So far, only the Tevinter Imperium and the Qunari have the guts to do what must be done, even if their philosophies are radically different. I can respect that. In White Chantry lands, they're too worried about political correctness to make a brave decision, whatever it is. In the mage-templar conflict, there's no room for compromises. Trying to look for a compromise is perpetuating a failed status-quo. Anders understood that.

Anders was an insane radical that didn't represent anything but other looneys.

I do believe there is a chance for compromise for both sides to emerge from this conflict for the better, For both sides to be heard out and present their agruments.

But that said having mages on leashes...

._. Erm mmm Ahem well anyway its a barbaric practice! The Qunari should be ashamed of themselves! ...Yes very ashamed.