174 réponses à ce sujet

[Asdrubael Vect]

i was a anti-Qunari, Darkspawns, Werewolfs, Orlais, Orlais Chantry/Templars/Chivalier/Bards, Antivan Crows 



and a pro-Mage, Elf, Dwarf-Golems/Branka, Kossith Tal-Vasgoth, Grey Wardens, Tevinter, Nevarra, Rivain, Non-Anrdastians before this became a mainstream)))

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 22 février 2014 - 05:44 .

[Mistic]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Anders was an insane radical that didn't represent anything but other looneys.

I do believe there is a chance for compromise for both sides to emerge from this conflict for the better, For both sides to be heard out and present their agruments.

But that said having mages on leashes...

._. Erm mmm Ahem well anyway its a barbaric practice! The Qunari should be ashamed of themselves! ...Yes very ashamed.

Anders was a revolutionary. Maybe you won't agree with all the things he did, but I'm sure everyone can respect his dedication to the cause. The vast majority of people don't do anything until a vocal minority starts changing things. Anders' actions were needed to show both templars and mages that the situation had to change.

In the same vein, the thoughtful templar Alrik understood that half-assed measures weren't enough. This painful stand-by instead of choosing an ultimate answer is why it took 7 long years for Meredith and Orsino to realize the truth and fight for what they really believed. At least Orsino had recognized the value of blood magic before, but that appeasing Meredith needed red lyrium to have the guts to do something.

(Bwahahaha )

[MisterJB]

Hum...well...

Isolation of mages does increase security but also leads to both groups having a skewed view of how the other lives daily which, inevitably, leads to less than sympathetic views from both groups; a great number non-mages see mages as either old men with beards sitting in towers, uncaring of the rest of the world or looking to dominate it while mages see the outside world as some sort of paradise where they'll have acess to the commodities of the Circle with the bonus of having more freedom.
Neither are 100% true, of course but both lead to resentment.
While it is true that there is danger in magic and that it is unfeasible to have Templars watch over mages who can just be lost in a crowd, I believe that there is room for more iniciatives meant to bring non-mages and mages closer together.
As of now, it seems that most mages only leave the Circle to contribute if there is an armed conflict. Unfortunately, this leads to their contributions being few and with large periods of time between them where anger can stew again.

One of the good things about the Circle is the quality of life so, why not share some of it? Mages like Bethany would certainly enjoy the opportunity of teaching young, poor non-mage children how to read and write; as you see, the contributions do not need to even involve magic.

Certainly, such events must be organized and monitored by a coalition of mages and templars so that magic can remain an aid rather than a threat; either through fireballs or simply unemployment;
while also ensuring these events will not be cut short by more overzealous elements. But if helpful mages become part of the routine, this could lead to less resentment between both groups and it could culminate into mages accepting more easily the isolation of their living quarters due to the opportunity of enjoying the outside world plus less willingness to destroy a world to which they have no connection and into non-mages being less fearful of their magical counterparts which might lead to something as simple as a couple of mages enjoying a drink in the local tavern without fear of being lynched.

(Not sure this counts as reversal of arguments since I would already say most of this during our regular debates)

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 février 2014 - 05:56 .

[Klystron]

Anders proves that the Chantry was right to ban the practice of Spirit Healing. It is far too dangerous. 

Never mind that the ashes of Andraste Herself have demonstrated great healing power, it is far more noble to mop the brows of the sick while you watch them suffer.  The Chantry had to adapt. 

Unfortunately the important research into demonic enslavement I espoused earlier must wait.  Crushing healing magic is far more pressing. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Klystron wrote...

Anders proves that the Chantry was right to ban the practice of Spirit Healing. It is far too dangerous. 

Never mind that the ashes of Andraste Herself have demonstrated great healing power, it is far more noble to mop the brows of the sick while you watch them suffer.  The Chantry had to adapt. 

Unfortunately the important research into demonic enslavement I espoused earlier must wait.  Crushing healing magic is far more pressing. 

I do believe that is a step too far, Normal Creation school healing suffices for the majoity of illnesses and issues and there is nothing wrong with that school of magic.

But anything involving spirits of the fade is treading into dangerous grounds that must be zealously watched and examined, spirit healing requires working in tandom with spirits and that to me sounds like it could easily lead to possession.

But Creation Magic? There isn't anything wrong with it, its quite useful actually, should become more common not even rarer then it already is.

[Klystron]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Klystron wrote...

Anders proves that the Chantry was right to ban the practice of Spirit Healing. It is far too dangerous. 

Never mind that the ashes of Andraste Herself have demonstrated great healing power, it is far more noble to mop the brows of the sick while you watch them suffer.  The Chantry had to adapt. 

Unfortunately the important research into demonic enslavement I espoused earlier must wait.  Crushing healing magic is far more pressing. 

I do believe that is a step too far, Normal Creation school healing suffices for the majoity of illnesses and issues and there is nothing wrong with that school of magic.

But anything involving spirits of the fade is treading into dangerous grounds that must be zealously watched and examined, spirit healing requires working in tandom with spirits and that to me sounds like it could easily lead to possession.

But Creation Magic? There isn't anything wrong with it, its quite useful actually, should become more common not even rarer then it already is.

It is a slippery slope!  When a mage encounters a case they just can't quite heal, the temptation is too great...


[thanks OP, this is fun! ]

Modifié par Klystron, 22 février 2014 - 06:05 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Klystron wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Klystron wrote...

Anders proves that the Chantry was right to ban the practice of Spirit Healing. It is far too dangerous. 

Never mind that the ashes of Andraste Herself have demonstrated great healing power, it is far more noble to mop the brows of the sick while you watch them suffer.  The Chantry had to adapt. 

Unfortunately the important research into demonic enslavement I espoused earlier must wait.  Crushing healing magic is far more pressing. 

I do believe that is a step too far, Normal Creation school healing suffices for the majoity of illnesses and issues and there is nothing wrong with that school of magic.

But anything involving spirits of the fade is treading into dangerous grounds that must be zealously watched and examined, spirit healing requires working in tandom with spirits and that to me sounds like it could easily lead to possession.

But Creation Magic? There isn't anything wrong with it, its quite useful actually, should become more common not even rarer then it already is.

It is a slippery slope!  When a mage encounters a case they just can't quite heal, the temptation is too great...


[thanks OP, this is fun! ]

The tempation to do what?

Go head first into a bascially unknown school?

Thankfully spirit healers are VERY rare, even rarer then normal healers which are quite a rarity in Thedas.

(Alright even as a templar supporter i was never this zealous against the creation school ._. its just getting stupid now) 

[dragonflight288]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Klystron wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Klystron wrote...

Anders proves that the Chantry was right to ban the practice of Spirit Healing. It is far too dangerous. 

Never mind that the ashes of Andraste Herself have demonstrated great healing power, it is far more noble to mop the brows of the sick while you watch them suffer.  The Chantry had to adapt. 

Unfortunately the important research into demonic enslavement I espoused earlier must wait.  Crushing healing magic is far more pressing. 

I do believe that is a step too far, Normal Creation school healing suffices for the majoity of illnesses and issues and there is nothing wrong with that school of magic.

But anything involving spirits of the fade is treading into dangerous grounds that must be zealously watched and examined, spirit healing requires working in tandom with spirits and that to me sounds like it could easily lead to possession.

But Creation Magic? There isn't anything wrong with it, its quite useful actually, should become more common not even rarer then it already is.

It is a slippery slope!  When a mage encounters a case they just can't quite heal, the temptation is too great...


[thanks OP, this is fun! ]

The tempation to do what?

Go head first into a bascially unknown school?

Thankfully spirit healers are VERY rare, even rarer then normal healers which are quite a rarity in Thedas.

(Alright even as a templar supporter i was never this zealous against the creation school ._. its just getting stupid now) 

If a master of creation comes across a case he or she cannot overcome via normal magic then there is the temptation to go to the spirits of the Fade, whether to flirt with such spirits and draw on their power to become a spirit healer, or to learn blood magic as a way to amplify their already substantial healing powers without the need for lyrium.

[dragonflight288]

@ MisterJB

(Not sure this counts as reversal of arguments since I would already say most of this during our regular debates)

True, but I know you've debated that the Circle is worth it because of their luxeries, so how about trying to debate that freedom is worth more than those luxuries, and that many mages may see the sacrifice as worth it, or something like that. Or if you want to debate elven issues like elves getting a homeland, argue on behalf of either Orlais or the Dalish if you've debated on behalf of the other before.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Klystron wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Klystron wrote...

Anders proves that the Chantry was right to ban the practice of Spirit Healing. It is far too dangerous. 

Never mind that the ashes of Andraste Herself have demonstrated great healing power, it is far more noble to mop the brows of the sick while you watch them suffer.  The Chantry had to adapt. 

Unfortunately the important research into demonic enslavement I espoused earlier must wait.  Crushing healing magic is far more pressing. 

I do believe that is a step too far, Normal Creation school healing suffices for the majoity of illnesses and issues and there is nothing wrong with that school of magic.

But anything involving spirits of the fade is treading into dangerous grounds that must be zealously watched and examined, spirit healing requires working in tandom with spirits and that to me sounds like it could easily lead to possession.

But Creation Magic? There isn't anything wrong with it, its quite useful actually, should become more common not even rarer then it already is.

It is a slippery slope!  When a mage encounters a case they just can't quite heal, the temptation is too great...


[thanks OP, this is fun! ]

The tempation to do what?

Go head first into a bascially unknown school?

Thankfully spirit healers are VERY rare, even rarer then normal healers which are quite a rarity in Thedas.

(Alright even as a templar supporter i was never this zealous against the creation school ._. its just getting stupid now) 

If a master of creation comes across a case he or she cannot overcome via normal magic then there is the temptation to go to the spirits of the Fade, whether to flirt with such spirits and draw on their power to become a spirit healer, or to learn blood magic as a way to amplify their already substantial healing powers without the need for lyrium.

So your assumption is that base tempation will overide expreince, common sense and templar vilgalence? 

The temptation for greater power is within all mages not merely healers, the drive for domination is simply an instrinstic human trait. My point is the scant risk offered from possession in the case of spirit healers is a rarity already and the school it self isn't a heavily taught nor tolerated one.

The risk of tempation of it is minor in my eye, blood magic however is a still present threat and it will likely to continue to be a plague to both mages and non mages. The mages resorting blood mage are consorting with their own doom in doing so, They are lost.

[dragonflight288]

So your assumption is that base tempation will overide expreince, common sense and templar vilgalence?

The temptation for greater power is within all mages not merely healers, the drive for domination is simply an instrinstic human trait. My point is the scant risk offered from possession in the case of spirit healers is a rarity already and the school it self isn't a heavily taught nor tolerated one.

The risk of tempation of it is minor in my eye, blood magic however is a still present threat and it will likely to continue to be a plague to both mages and non mages. The mages resorting blood mage are consorting with their own doom in doing so, They are lost.

There is a saying. Even the most upright person, if put in a situation where temptation is prevalent, even if they have no desire to give in, if they are in that position of temptation long enough, they will eventually give in.

(Hah, this is a rather unique reversal of our usual debates. It's fun.)

[TK514]

I like the idea of this thread. Give me some time to consider an argument that isn't just rote parroting of what's been said by others before.

[cJohnOne]

I've never argued mage versus Templars but I'd be for Templars so.. Are not Mages human beings? Therefore should be free as any other human being. Who would argue against such basic freedoms.
Save imports are good they connect one game to the next. why would you not have save imports?
Well this topic makes me laugh.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The qunari are the best suited to guide thedas in the future because their society is such that by the basis of logic and utilitarianism, they are best suited to rule. Their health and sanitation is the by far the most advanced, as is their military. Their system is designed to eliminate the long standing and stagnant ruling system of hemogarchy that has gripped all of thedas say for the tevinter imperium, with nobles being more concerned about whose blood flows in your veins then the quality of a persons character. The qunari would also eliminate homelessness, destitution, and job uncertainty by creating a system designed for peak efficiency. Food would be grown only to feed those who need it, as would all resources, and thus allow a much more conversationalist movement to come about. And because there would be no uncertainty within the qun, there would be little to no social strife once everyone accepts their role under the qunari's system of life and governance.

Baring that however, the tevinter imperium would be a likely candidate to rule thedas into a better age, as their checkered past have given rise to a newer and better understanding. While blood magic is practiced in secret it is no longer celebrated but properly distrusted. You won't find people openly flaunting blood magic like it were a fancy new set of clothes, and everyone may have a better understanding on how to defend against such arts if all of them know a bit of it. The enslavement aspect of their society is regrettable, but by that same token, it has allowed them to achieve much in their society without costing too much coin in the process. The election system of the imperium may also allow new ideas and new people into positions of power, and prevent a stagnated system to come about through generational biases and blood royalty.

[BlueMagitek]

That hurts, OP, I've always been pro mage.

But, as you insist:

The Circle System is broken. Not because of the Chantry, not because of the Templars, not entirely. Both groups are necessary for the Circle to survive in Thedas; the Chantry is capable of keeping individual nations from demanding things of the Circle and the Templars are necessary because sometimes mages do bad things or a magical experiment goes wrong. The problem comes from a lack of balance of power. The Mages are wards of the Circle, they don't really have a choice in wanting to live there or not. They need to have a say in the running of it. For example, extremely trusted & dedicated Mages should have the ability to join the ranks of the Templars as an auxiliary unit where they specialize in Spirit Magic (which, as a Mage, should be the most terrifying school given that it nullifies their powers as well as if not more so than the Templar). The Chantry should also take some advantage of the Circle; expand the size of the Circle and allow mages to go out (with Templar escort) to assist the common people. Suffering a drought? Send a handful of mages and twenty Templar to the local Chantry and summon a rainstorm. This makes the Chantry, the Templar and the Circle look good in the eyes of the common people, reinforcing the idea that, with Chantry guidance (Maker's approval) magic is a gift.

-

Let me talk about the Dalish, those brave non humans who resist human integration, rousing the culture of their people which had been stamped on and put on diaspora. They're right to hate humanity, because being near one results in the loss of their life and - Creators forbid - breeding with one only makes more humans. The only way to preserve the Dalish way is to reconvert the fallen (City Elves) and make them as secondary citizens once the Dales re-establish themselves and maintain a strict breeding program to encourage greater elf population. And if a few humans who are probably horrible anyway have to be moved or gotten rid of, so be it.

--

The casteless deserve what they get, they're basically Dwarf Australia.

Happy?

[Xilizhra]

The notion of all people deserving equal opportunity is bunk. Tevinter actually had it right, more or less; mages are fundamentally superior to nonmages by virtue of their superior capabilities, but must also be defended due to their greater vulnerabilities. A nation with magic integrated into its infrastructure must be run solely by mages for the greater good of all, with the ultimate goal of finding a way to bring such enlightenment to everyone; turning all people into mages themselves.;

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

The notion of all people deserving equal opportunity is bunk. Tevinter actually had it right, more or less; mages are fundamentally superior to nonmages by virtue of their superior capabilities, but must also be defended due to their greater vulnerabilities. A nation with magic integrated into its infrastructure must be run solely by mages for the greater good of all, with the ultimate goal of finding a way to bring such enlightenment to everyone; turning all people into mages themselves.;

That sounds like a bad idea

[Xilizhra]

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The notion of all people deserving equal opportunity is bunk. Tevinter actually had it right, more or less; mages are fundamentally superior to nonmages by virtue of their superior capabilities, but must also be defended due to their greater vulnerabilities. A nation with magic integrated into its infrastructure must be run solely by mages for the greater good of all, with the ultimate goal of finding a way to bring such enlightenment to everyone; turning all people into mages themselves.;

That sounds like a bad idea

That's why this is the reverse argument thread.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

So your assumption is that base tempation will overide expreince, common sense and templar vilgalence?

The temptation for greater power is within all mages not merely healers, the drive for domination is simply an instrinstic human trait. My point is the scant risk offered from possession in the case of spirit healers is a rarity already and the school it self isn't a heavily taught nor tolerated one.

The risk of tempation of it is minor in my eye, blood magic however is a still present threat and it will likely to continue to be a plague to both mages and non mages. The mages resorting blood mage are consorting with their own doom in doing so, They are lost.

There is a saying. Even the most upright person, if put in a situation where temptation is prevalent, even if they have no desire to give in, if they are in that position of temptation long enough, they will eventually give in.

(Hah, this is a rather unique reversal of our usual debates. It's fun.)

If Spirit Healers were more common then they were then this certainly would likely become more of a topic for debate so far there have been three confirmed spirit healers in the entirity of DA and two of those are out of commision.

[Master Warder Z_]

Xilizhra wrote...

The notion of all people deserving equal opportunity is bunk. Tevinter actually had it right, more or less; mages are fundamentally superior to nonmages by virtue of their superior capabilities, but must also be defended due to their greater vulnerabilities. A nation with magic integrated into its infrastructure must be run solely by mages for the greater good of all, with the ultimate goal of finding a way to bring such enlightenment to everyone; turning all people into mages themselves.;

That doesn't sound like anything beyond what you normally would say Xill.

._. Point of the thread is reversing positions.

You already said a few times you hope the Imperium comes down and enslaves the rest of Thedas again (Never going to happen lol) 

[Xilizhra]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The notion of all people deserving equal opportunity is bunk. Tevinter actually had it right, more or less; mages are fundamentally superior to nonmages by virtue of their superior capabilities, but must also be defended due to their greater vulnerabilities. A nation with magic integrated into its infrastructure must be run solely by mages for the greater good of all, with the ultimate goal of finding a way to bring such enlightenment to everyone; turning all people into mages themselves.;

That doesn't sound like anything beyond what you normally would say Xill.

._. Point of the thread is reversing positions.

You already said a few times you hope the Imperium comes down and enslaves the rest of Thedas again (Never going to happen lol) 

I tried to type a pro-templar argument, but my fingers started spontaneously trying to break each other and then one hand tried to strangle me, so I decided to just remove all possible moral brakes and considerations of equality for my reverse argument.

[Hellion Rex]

The mages must be quarantined and contained. This rebellion is the entire fault of the mages. Give them an inch, and they will take a mile.

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

The mages must be quarantined and contained. This rebellion is the entire fault of the mages. Give them an inch, and they will take a mile.

Yes!

Let the Templar flow through you!

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The notion of all people deserving equal opportunity is bunk. Tevinter actually had it right, more or less; mages are fundamentally superior to nonmages by virtue of their superior capabilities, but must also be defended due to their greater vulnerabilities. A nation with magic integrated into its infrastructure must be run solely by mages for the greater good of all, with the ultimate goal of finding a way to bring such enlightenment to everyone; turning all people into mages themselves.;

That doesn't sound like anything beyond what you normally would say Xill.

._. Point of the thread is reversing positions.

You already said a few times you hope the Imperium comes down and enslaves the rest of Thedas again (Never going to happen lol) 

I tried to type a pro-templar argument, but my fingers started spontaneously trying to break each other and then one hand tried to strangle me, so I decided to just remove all possible moral brakes and considerations of equality for my reverse argument.

My soul dies a little inside when I give in to the templar urges.