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Change of Pace: Reversal of Arguments


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#101
Dean_the_Young

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Misticsan wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Progressivism, in other words, is a mythology of constant improvement and forward advancement towards an inevitable and better future.It claims to be both enlightened and unopposable, because all the failures and errors of the past are constantly expunged from the myth and denied. But once you do remember the failures, and don't buy into the myth... then Progressivism is just another self-justifying movement of people who think they know best, whether they do or do not.

It's much harder to hand over power and authority to well meaning people who have increasing disinclination to not only concede that they are fallible, but that they have failed, and who cast opposition to them in terms of ignorance and fear, a mark of personal weakness and failure on the part of the opponents.

Although Progressivism tends to forget the failures of the past to make a better story of itself, the underlaying principles behind it are still correct and human history proves it right in the end.

Progress requires a constant supply of changes, be them big or small, and that means a constant supply of failures too, that's right. Conservatism in that regard tries to keep the negative changes to a minimum, and that's good. But it also perpetuates the bad situations that are already in effect, instead of looking for new solutions to solve old problems. Progressivism means more problems, but also more solutions. Conservatism means less problems, but less solutions too.

In the end, it's a matter of human nature. Despite blatant cases of self-destructing stupidity, we can say that for the most part humans are not an "always chaotic evil" species. So if you present them a constant stream of possible solutions, in the end (and after many, many mistakes) they will keep the most favorable ones. However, by defending a conservative way of thinking, they will keep making the same mistakes because they can see no other way of solving their current problems.

This can only be said to be true if progress is a linear progression along a path, but the only linear progression about changes is the nature of time. There is nothing inherent about the accumulation of sequences of cultural changes to its current point, as demonstrated by the various points in history where we could see parallel developments and atittudes on issues and what was considered progressive at the time. The very premise of what is considered 'most favorable' is an output of culture that has been in the hands of chance and forces beyond cultural control.

You're falling into the same trap about retroactively relabeling the history of what was progress to justify a narrative. When you claim that all changes seen from the current perspective as beneficial constitute progress, the premise of progressivism loses all meaning besides 'what is appreciated at the moment.' There's nothing self-evident on that past the tautalogy.



That's in the end what the Mage-Templar War is about, and the reason why Anders was right in doing what he did.

Anders just wants the status quo changed, and killing the mages is an acceptable resolution to that. He doesn't have a plan for making things better for the mages by any sane standard.

#102
Xilizhra

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Anders just wants the status quo changed, and killing the mages is an acceptable resolution to that. He doesn't have a plan for making things better for the mages by any sane standard.

Not a plan, precisely, but the notion that it will be overall be better for the mage population for a major war to defeat the templars now, as opposed to letting them be crushed beneath the Order's heels indefinitely.

#103
Master Warder Z_

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Xilizhra wrote...

Anders just wants the status quo changed, and killing the mages is an acceptable resolution to that. He doesn't have a plan for making things better for the mages by any sane standard.

Not a plan, precisely, but the notion that it will be overall be better for the mage population for a major war to defeat the templars now, as opposed to letting them be crushed beneath the Order's heels indefinitely.

I doubt he had even that.

Insane abomination remember?

#104
Klystron

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Master Warder Z wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders just wants the status quo changed, and killing the mages is an acceptable resolution to that. He doesn't have a plan for making things better for the mages by any sane standard.

Not a plan, precisely, but the notion that it will be overall be better for the mage population for a major war to defeat the templars now, as opposed to letting them be crushed beneath the Order's heels indefinitely.

I doubt he had even that.

Insane abomination remember?


Yes, the Spirit of Justice:  insane indeed!

(Jeez, I don't know whether I'm arguing for or against myself anymore :alien:  )

#105
General TSAR

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Xilizhra wrote...

Anders just wants the status quo changed, and killing the mages is an acceptable resolution to that. He doesn't have a plan for making things better for the mages by any sane standard.

Not a plan, precisely, but the notion that it will be overall be better for the mage population for a major war to defeat the templars now, as opposed to letting them be crushed beneath the Order's heels indefinitely.

Ahh yes, a war that only benefits the very few mages while the rest of the normal humans suffer because of it.:bandit:

Modifié par General TSAR, 24 février 2014 - 02:39 .


#106
Master Warder Z_

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Klystron wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders just wants the status quo changed, and killing the mages is an acceptable resolution to that. He doesn't have a plan for making things better for the mages by any sane standard.

Not a plan, precisely, but the notion that it will be overall be better for the mage population for a major war to defeat the templars now, as opposed to letting them be crushed beneath the Order's heels indefinitely.

I doubt he had even that.

Insane abomination remember?


Yes, the Spirit of Justice:  insane indeed!

(Jeez, I don't know whether I'm arguing for or against myself anymore :alien:  )

This thread is weird at twisting folk's ain't it?

And i do believe Justice was a demon by this point so i doubt insanity was anything new.

#107
Dean_the_Young

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Xilizhra wrote...

Anders just wants the status quo changed, and killing the mages is an acceptable resolution to that. He doesn't have a plan for making things better for the mages by any sane standard.

Not a plan, precisely, but the notion that it will be overall be better for the mage population for a major war to defeat the templars now, as opposed to letting them be crushed beneath the Order's heels indefinitely.

Except Anders plan isn't to win the war. It isn't even a notion. The actual result of the Mage rebellion is irrelevant: the mages being slaughtered under the Order's heels and another generation being brought into the Circle System is an acceptable consequence because Anders doesn't even care about the consequence of his actions. He just wants a revolt, and does nothing to shape an outcome of it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 février 2014 - 03:22 .


#108
dragonflight288

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Klystron wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders just wants the status quo changed, and killing the mages is an acceptable resolution to that. He doesn't have a plan for making things better for the mages by any sane standard.

Not a plan, precisely, but the notion that it will be overall be better for the mage population for a major war to defeat the templars now, as opposed to letting them be crushed beneath the Order's heels indefinitely.

I doubt he had even that.

Insane abomination remember?


Yes, the Spirit of Justice:  insane indeed!

(Jeez, I don't know whether I'm arguing for or against myself anymore :alien:  )

:lol:

#109
Xilizhra

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders just wants the status quo changed, and killing the mages is an acceptable resolution to that. He doesn't have a plan for making things better for the mages by any sane standard.

Not a plan, precisely, but the notion that it will be overall be better for the mage population for a major war to defeat the templars now, as opposed to letting them be crushed beneath the Order's heels indefinitely.

Except Anders plan isn't to win the war. It isn't even a notion. The actual result of the Mage rebellion is irrelevant: the mages being slaughtered under the Order's heels and another generation being brought into the Circle System is an acceptable consequence because Anders doesn't even care about the consequence of his actions. He just wants a revolt, and does nothing to shape an outcome of it.

He is not, regrettably, all that sane by this point. I do, however, think that he seems much more stable if you spare him and side with the mages, and now that Justice has actually gotten to act, the internal conflict's biggest issue is resolved and Anders should be relatively okay from now on.

#110
Loghain Mac-Tir

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Not only is Anders insane he is also wrong about the whole Mage-Templar conflict, he believes (or believed as the case may be, him being stabbed with the murder knife) that there can be no middle ground, no compromises, but I think the only way mages can co-exist with non-mages, is with compromises and meeting half way..

Give them too much freedom and they become magisters (tevinter) and you don't need anyone to tell you, them's the bad guys

Restrict them within an inch of their lives (kirkwall) and they will resort to blood magic or possessed by demons

I am sorry the whole Idea of the thread was lost on me, so, I will give it a try

Anders For President - 2016

#111
Xilizhra

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Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

Not only is Anders insane he is also wrong about the whole Mage-Templar conflict, he believes (or believed as the case may be, him being stabbed with the murder knife) that there can be no middle ground, no compromises, but I think the only way mages can co-exist with non-mages, is with compromises and meeting half way..

Give them too much freedom and they become magisters (tevinter) and you don't need anyone to tell you, them's the bad guys

Restrict them within an inch of their lives (kirkwall) and they will resort to blood magic or possessed by demons

I am sorry the whole Idea of the thread was lost on me, so, I will give it a try

Anders For President - 2016

He's half-right. The way to end this will require negotiations... but not with the templars, who are too far gone.

#112
Hanako Ikezawa

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Xilizhra wrote...

Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

Not only is Anders insane he is also wrong about the whole Mage-Templar conflict, he believes (or believed as the case may be, him being stabbed with the murder knife) that there can be no middle ground, no compromises, but I think the only way mages can co-exist with non-mages, is with compromises and meeting half way..

Give them too much freedom and they become magisters (tevinter) and you don't need anyone to tell you, them's the bad guys

Restrict them within an inch of their lives (kirkwall) and they will resort to blood magic or possessed by demons

I am sorry the whole Idea of the thread was lost on me, so, I will give it a try

Anders For President - 2016

He's half-right. The way to end this will require negotiations... but not with the templars, who are too far gone.

Who would you negotiate with then? The enemy the mages are facing is the Templars, thus they are the ones you need to negotiate with.

#113
Loghain Mac-Tir

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Xilizhra wrote...

Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

Not only is Anders insane he is also wrong about the whole Mage-Templar conflict, he believes (or believed as the case may be, him being stabbed with the murder knife) that there can be no middle ground, no compromises, but I think the only way mages can co-exist with non-mages, is with compromises and meeting half way..

Give them too much freedom and they become magisters (tevinter) and you don't need anyone to tell you, them's the bad guys

Restrict them within an inch of their lives (kirkwall) and they will resort to blood magic or possessed by demons

I am sorry the whole Idea of the thread was lost on me, so, I will give it a try

Anders For President - 2016

He's half-right. The way to end this will require negotiations... but not with the templars, who are too far gone.

He wasn't willing to listen, period . 

When Orsino (maker rest his soul) tried to involve Elthina , who despite being a spineless old lady, was knda-sorta neutral in the whole mage-templar business. Anders ... well you know what he did

#114
Loghain Mac-Tir

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

Not only is Anders insane he is also wrong about the whole Mage-Templar conflict, he believes (or believed as the case may be, him being stabbed with the murder knife) that there can be no middle ground, no compromises, but I think the only way mages can co-exist with non-mages, is with compromises and meeting half way..

Give them too much freedom and they become magisters (tevinter) and you don't need anyone to tell you, them's the bad guys

Restrict them within an inch of their lives (kirkwall) and they will resort to blood magic or possessed by demons

I am sorry the whole Idea of the thread was lost on me, so, I will give it a try

Anders For President - 2016

He's half-right. The way to end this will require negotiations... but not with the templars, who are too far gone.

Who would you negotiate with then? The enemy the mages are facing is the Templars, thus they are the ones you need to negotiate with.

Well, The Templars are or were just an arm of the Chantry, They are the enemy. Most of the Templars are just
addicted bloodthirsty sword-waving maniacs, don't negiotiate with those guys , they are unfair.

#115
Hanako Ikezawa

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Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

Not only is Anders insane he is also wrong about the whole Mage-Templar conflict, he believes (or believed as the case may be, him being stabbed with the murder knife) that there can be no middle ground, no compromises, but I think the only way mages can co-exist with non-mages, is with compromises and meeting half way..

Give them too much freedom and they become magisters (tevinter) and you don't need anyone to tell you, them's the bad guys

Restrict them within an inch of their lives (kirkwall) and they will resort to blood magic or possessed by demons

I am sorry the whole Idea of the thread was lost on me, so, I will give it a try

Anders For President - 2016

He's half-right. The way to end this will require negotiations... but not with the templars, who are too far gone.

Who would you negotiate with then? The enemy the mages are facing is the Templars, thus they are the ones you need to negotiate with.

Well, The Templars are or were just an arm of the Chantry, They are the enemy. Most of the Templars are just
addicted bloodthirsty sword-waving maniacs, don't negiotiate with those guys , they are unfair.



You'd have to negotiate with both, since the Chantry don't represent the Templars/Seekers anymore.

#116
Xilizhra

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Who would you negotiate with then? The enemy the mages are facing is the Templars, thus they are the ones you need to negotiate with.

The templars will be prisoners or ash. Then we talk with the Chantry.

Or we could do it the other way around.

When Orsino (maker rest his soul) tried to involve Elthina , who despite being a spineless old lady, was knda-sorta neutral in the whole mage-templar business. Anders ... well you know what he did

I have no trust in Elthina whatsoever. It seems very strongly to me that she was covertly backing Meredith, given that everything she did let Meredith's power grow.

#117
Loghain Mac-Tir

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

Not only is Anders insane he is also wrong about the whole Mage-Templar conflict, he believes (or believed as the case may be, him being stabbed with the murder knife) that there can be no middle ground, no compromises, but I think the only way mages can co-exist with non-mages, is with compromises and meeting half way..

Give them too much freedom and they become magisters (tevinter) and you don't need anyone to tell you, them's the bad guys

Restrict them within an inch of their lives (kirkwall) and they will resort to blood magic or possessed by demons

I am sorry the whole Idea of the thread was lost on me, so, I will give it a try

Anders For President - 2016

He's half-right. The way to end this will require negotiations... but not with the templars, who are too far gone.

Who would you negotiate with then? The enemy the mages are facing is the Templars, thus they are the ones you need to negotiate with.

Well, The Templars are or were just an arm of the Chantry, They are the enemy. Most of the Templars are just
addicted bloodthirsty sword-waving maniacs, don't negiotiate with those guys , they are unfair.



You'd have to negotiate with both, since the Chantry don't represent the Templars/Seekers anymore.

I love how everything is in full chaos mode, and you come along and seize the power. And the best part, no one even sees you coming. Because
Nobody expects a Thedosian Inquistion .

#118
Hanako Ikezawa

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Xilizhra wrote...

Who would you negotiate with then? The enemy the mages are facing is the Templars, thus they are the ones you need to negotiate with.

The templars will be prisoners or ash. Then we talk with the Chantry.

Or we could do it the other way around.

When Orsino (maker rest his soul) tried to involve Elthina , who despite being a spineless old lady, was knda-sorta neutral in the whole mage-templar business. Anders ... well you know what he did

I have no trust in Elthina whatsoever. It seems very strongly to me that she was covertly backing Meredith, given that everything she did let Meredith's power grow.

Good luck with that.

Oh, and backing Meredith as in refusing her to enact the Right of Annulment?

#119
Hanako Ikezawa

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Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

Nobody expects a Thedosian Inquistion .

That sill needs to be a joke somewhere in this game. Like under the Humurous options or something.

#120
Xilizhra

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Who would you negotiate with then? The enemy the mages are facing is the Templars, thus they are the ones you need to negotiate with.

The templars will be prisoners or ash. Then we talk with the Chantry.

Or we could do it the other way around.

When Orsino (maker rest his soul) tried to involve Elthina , who despite being a spineless old lady, was knda-sorta neutral in the whole mage-templar business. Anders ... well you know what he did

I have no trust in Elthina whatsoever. It seems very strongly to me that she was covertly backing Meredith, given that everything she did let Meredith's power grow.

Good luck with that.

Oh, and backing Meredith as in refusing her to enact the Right of Annulment?

Elthina wasn't necessary for that; Meredith went over her head for the request, and Elthina's neutrality allows her to control Kirkwall's nonmage civilians. Siding with the templars would disrupt the balance of power that has the Chantry in almost complete control of Kirkwall; all she needs to do is play the ineffectual role long enough for Meredith to finally get to enable her crackdown, and she gets off scot-free. The only wrinkle, of course, being Anders.

#121
Hanako Ikezawa

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Xilizhra wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Oh, and backing Meredith as in refusing her to enact the Right of Annulment?

Elthina wasn't necessary for that; Meredith went over her head for the request, and Elthina's neutrality allows her to control Kirkwall's nonmage civilians. Siding with the templars would disrupt the balance of power that has the Chantry in almost complete control of Kirkwall; all she needs to do is play the ineffectual role long enough for Meredith to finally get to enable her crackdown, and she gets off scot-free. The only wrinkle, of course, being Anders.

...Yes she is. A Knight Commander needs the approval of the Grand Cleric before enacting it. Hence why Gregoir was waiting for word from Denerim before doing it to the Circle in Ferelden.

Oh, and to keep with the spirit of this thread, Lambert was a very nice, understanding man to the mages.

#122
Loghain Mac-Tir

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Xilizhra wrote...

Who would you negotiate with then? The enemy the mages are facing is the Templars, thus they are the ones you need to negotiate with.

The templars will be prisoners or ash. Then we talk with the Chantry.

Or we could do it the other way around.

When Orsino (maker rest his soul) tried to involve Elthina , who despite being a spineless old lady, was knda-sorta neutral in the whole mage-templar business. Anders ... well you know what he did

I have no trust in Elthina whatsoever. It seems very strongly to me that she was covertly backing Meredith, given that everything she did let Meredith's power grow.


Hence the term spineless,
I mean one of the there possible situtation took place in Kirkwall 

1. Elthina was indeed covertly backing Meredith - If so, Why covertly, I mean she could have just recited what the other sanctimonious fanatics in the chantry do , But she had to keep it a secret and let the mages think that they have a chance ... That's criminal negligibility

2. She was neutral to the whole business - Who the hell stays neutral when that bigga sh!tstorm is coming, When you talk to her about picking a side, her reply is God (Maker) will take care of everything , now where have you heard that one before . And why let Meredith gain so much influence ... WAI

3. She was pro-mage - NO

#123
Xilizhra

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I'd go on, but I'd be thread breaking, so let me try another one...

Whatever process the qunari used to create a whole society of complacent slaves, we must discover. Hopefully it's blood magic, as that's easiest to replicate; otherwise, it'll take longer... but when we have the same drones that the qunari do, and if we can get a hold of their technology as well, our society should be able to defeat theirs, and our rulers will reign supreme over Thedas.

#124
Loghain Mac-Tir

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Xilizhra wrote...

I'd go on, but I'd be thread breaking, so let me try another one...

Whatever process the qunari used to create a whole society of complacent slaves, we must discover. Hopefully it's blood magic, as that's easiest to replicate; otherwise, it'll take longer... but when we have the same drones that the qunari do, and if we can get a hold of their technology as well, our society should be able to defeat theirs, and our rulers will reign supreme over Thedas.

What is this bas talking about?

#125
Xilizhra

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Loghain Mac-Tir wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'd go on, but I'd be thread breaking, so let me try another one...

Whatever process the qunari used to create a whole society of complacent slaves, we must discover. Hopefully it's blood magic, as that's easiest to replicate; otherwise, it'll take longer... but when we have the same drones that the qunari do, and if we can get a hold of their technology as well, our society should be able to defeat theirs, and our rulers will reign supreme over Thedas.

What is this bas talking about?



My admiration of you, of course.