64 réponses à ce sujet

[OdanUrr]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I think the main problem was that ME2 didn't do much to advance the narrative, thus when ME3 came around everything felt even more rushed.

Pretty much this. If ME2 had been about combing the galaxy for a way to defeat the Reapers (aka the Crucible), that would've been great. ME3 could've then been about building the weapon and gathering allies for the final push.

[Bob from Accounting]

OdanUrr wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I think the main problem was that ME2 didn't do much to advance the narrative, thus when ME3 came around everything felt even more rushed.

Pretty much this. If ME2 had been about combing the galaxy for a way to defeat the Reapers (aka the Crucible), that would've been great. ME3 could've then been about building the weapon and gathering allies for the final push.

I very seriously doubt that.

[themikefest]

Bob from Accounting wrote...

Because ME 4 would inevitably feature the Reapers rolling in, crushing the fleets and Shepard saving the day at the last minute with the Crucible. Which not only fails to solve the supposed problem you're attempting to address (The galaxy is unprepared) it actually makes it far worse. At least now Shepard has the fleets backing him. All this accomplishes is making the Crucible all the more of a DEM for having it built and activated by a broken galaxy.

It also sends the thematic message that unity and alliances and ultimately pointless. Which is not a message that should be sent.

And what message should be sent?

[OdanUrr]

Bob from Accounting wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I think the main problem was that ME2 didn't do much to advance the narrative, thus when ME3 came around everything felt even more rushed.

Pretty much this. If ME2 had been about combing the galaxy for a way to defeat the Reapers (aka the Crucible), that would've been great. ME3 could've then been about building the weapon and gathering allies for the final push.

I very seriously doubt that.

Doubt what exactly?

[Bob from Accounting]

That Shepard's actions in uniting the galaxy and the player's choices contribute to something. That they don't turn out to be pointless.

[Bob from Accounting]

OdanUrr wrote...

Bob from Accounting wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I think the main problem was that ME2 didn't do much to advance the narrative, thus when ME3 came around everything felt even more rushed.

Pretty much this. If ME2 had been about combing the galaxy for a way to defeat the Reapers (aka the Crucible), that would've been great. ME3 could've then been about building the weapon and gathering allies for the final push.

I very seriously doubt that.

Doubt what exactly?

That this scenario would be a 'great' plot.

[OdanUrr]

Bob from Accounting wrote...

That Shepard's actions in uniting the galaxy and the player's choices contribute to something. That they don't turn out to be pointless.

Curing the genophage, bringing peace to the quarians and the geth, how is any of this pointless?

[OdanUrr]

Bob from Accounting wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Bob from Accounting wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I think the main problem was that ME2 didn't do much to advance the narrative, thus when ME3 came around everything felt even more rushed.

Pretty much this. If ME2 had been about combing the galaxy for a way to defeat the Reapers (aka the Crucible), that would've been great. ME3 could've then been about building the weapon and gathering allies for the final push.

I very seriously doubt that.

Doubt what exactly?

That this scenario would be a 'great' plot.

It would've been more consistent at least.

[JPN17]

TheGarden2010 wrote...

the greatest trick the Devil ever played was convincing the world he didn't exist. the Reaper threat is present throughout the ENTIRE ME2, just veiled in the form of the Collectors.

what does everyone say the Reapers do in ME3? they harvest organic life, and then they start creating more Reapers from their genetic material. and what do the Collectors do in ME2? they harvest humans........and break down their genetic material to create the Human Reaper monstrosity. the harvest had already begun before the events of ME3.

so people saying ME2 was a filler game or it had barely anything to do with Reapers or whatever is plain stupid.

The collectors are a fringe threat nothing more. A few terminus colonies gone, in the end really who cares? Even if the collectors managed to complete the human reaper, what difference does it make? It would assuredly be defeated if it assaulted the galaxy a la Sovereign. Obviously they try to play the collectors up as a legitimate threat in ME2 to get the player invested, but they're truly insignificant. There is no research done into how to stop the reapers, there is no progress made in trying to figure out anything about them. Reaper tactics, reaper technology, reaper weaknesses we don't investigate any of this. You could take Shepard's speech from the end of ME1 and have him/her say it at the end of ME2 and it would fit perfectly. ME2 is a bunch of fetch quests and loyalty missions that have zip to do with anything involving the reapers. Oh the reapers are on the fringe of the galaxy? That can wait, we gotta go checkout Jacob's dad's harem. The threat of the reapers exists in ME2, but it's not realized in the plot.

[Bob from Accounting]

It isn't. It would be if, however, if the geth and quarians were all killed by the Reapers regardless anyway. If the krogan were all decimated by the Reapers anyway.

Which is inevitably what would happen if the Reapers aren't even introduced until all those decisions are already made. After all, if the fleets can hold their own, why would we be bothering with the Crucible at all?

Modifié par Bob from Accounting, 22 février 2014 - 07:09 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bob from Accounting wrote...
Because ME 4 would inevitably feature the Reapers rolling in, crushing the fleets and Shepard saving the day at the last minute with the Crucible. Which not only fails to solve the supposed problem you're attempting to address (The galaxy is unprepared) it actually makes it far worse. At least now Shepard has the fleets backing him. All this accomplishes is making the Crucible all the more of a DEM for having it built and activated by a broken galaxy.

It also sends the thematic message that unity and alliances and ultimately pointless. Which is not a message that should be sent.

And isn't that what basically happens in ME3 already?

Rhetorical: The anwer is yes, it does already happen.

The issue shouldn't be whether or not the galaxy is unprepared or not. It's a matter of what they can do. You can have a fully prepared force not win against the Reapers, but have them initiate a delaying/harassing engagement. It'd be textbook asymmetric warfare on a Naval scale. 

For example, we'll use the first Frigates of the Continental Navy during the American Revolution. The Americans knew that they weren't going to be able to go toe-to-toe with the Royal Navy in a direct confrontation. So instead, they built their ships to be Frigate sized, while being able to dish out nearly three times the firepower of a British Frigate. They were also built out of very strong, very sturdy Southern Oak wood, and given metal plating. They were capable of taking hits as well. And to top it off, they were small, fast Frigates, capable of outrunning larger, more powerful British vessels. And the Continental Navy adopted an asymmetric warfare policy against the British, to keep them occupied and to generate chaos within their formations.

So the message I'm saying here is that having the galaxy be prepared doesn't automatically mean that they're going to get thrashed by the Reapers. No, they aren't going to be killing a whole lot of them, but that's not their job. Their job is to keep the Reapers busy while the Crucible is finished.

And the Crucible isn't a DEM. A DEM is a plot device or contrivance pulled out of literally no where at the very end of the story to solve the problem that was unsolvable by everyone, including the protagonist. The Crucible certainly isn't pulled out of nowhere at the end of the story.

Lastly, I'm a huge critic of is-ought-should arguments. Your argument against the message falls into these parameters.

And to be honest, that is what happens. All the alliances are useless against the Reapers. Unity and friendship and love aren't going to beat the Reapers. They're way too powerful for that. And that's fine. The purpose of those forces wasn't to beat the Reapers anyway. It was to buy time for the Crucible's development, construction, and deployment. Because Superweapons are going to beat the Reapers. 

It's practical if you ask me (And I much prefer it that way). I don't believe in determination and positive emotions overcoming cold (or hot) firepower and numbers. The guy with the bigger gun always wins.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bob from Accounting wrote...

That Shepard's actions in uniting the galaxy and the player's choices contribute to something. That they don't turn out to be pointless.

They do mean something. They mean that you have enough mooks to use as bullet sponges and human shields for the Reapers firepower to be able to get the Crucible to its deployment area safely.

That's all they are. Bullet sponges. A distraction. They were never meant to beat the Reapers.

[Bob from Accounting]

Is that right? You must overwhelmingly hate fiction if you actually believe 'the guy with the bigger gun always wins,' since fiction overwhelmingly goes out of it's way to refute that idea. Fiction overwhelmingly features stories with the protagonists facing a superficially stronger opponent, with a 'bigger gun,' so to speak, and yet emering victorious.

Modifié par Bob from Accounting, 22 février 2014 - 07:19 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

OdanUrr wrote...

Bob from Accounting wrote...

That Shepard's actions in uniting the galaxy and the player's choices contribute to something. That they don't turn out to be pointless.

Curing the genophage, bringing peace to the quarians and the geth, how is any of this pointless?

Depends on how you view those. I cured the genophage for the sole reason of having heavy shock troops to soak up the Reapers firepower. If the Reapers weren't a threat, I'd finish what the Turians started.

As for the Geth and Quarians, it wasn't economical to let both sides die. They both have valuable utility in the fight against the Reapers. And same as above, they're meant to draw the Reapers fire away from the actual killer.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bob from Accounting wrote...

Is that right? You must overwhelmingly hate fiction if you actually believe 'the guy with the bigger gun always wins,' since fiction overwhelmingly goes out of it's way to refute that idea. Fiction overwhelmingly features stories with the protagonists facing a superficially stronger opponent, with a 'bigger gun,' so to speak, and yet emering victorious.

How are you doing David? Have a good ban?

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 22 février 2014 - 07:20 .

[Bob from Accounting]

I don't know who that is. I'm Bob. From Accounting.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bob from Accounting wrote...

I don't know who that is. I'm Bob. From Accounting.

Really? If you're not (which I really doubt you aren't), then you're a suspiciously similar substitute who will probably end up with the same fate in a few days or weeks.

[Bob from Accounting]

I'm sure that whoever this person is isn't the only person in the world to hold claim to whatever ideas you find mine similar to. We all draw water from the same old well, after all. It's more or less a certainty that very similar arguments arise.

Modifié par Bob from Accounting, 22 février 2014 - 07:32 .

[SwobyJ]

Bob, get my coffee while I go be a hero.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bob from Accounting wrote...

I'm sure that whoever this person is isn't the only person in the world to hold claim to whatever ideas you find mine similar to. We all draw water from the same old well, after all. It's more or less a certainty that very similar arguments arise.

If you are who you claim you are, then you aren't going to want to make a lot of arguments like this guy. And really, you've already made several. So forgive my skepticism.

[Bob from Accounting]

Why not?

[Invisible Man]

there's also the timing. someone gets banned, and after a short pause there is someone else making very similar posts with a very similar style. though it's not impossible I admit.

Modifié par Invisible Man, 22 février 2014 - 07:50 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Bob from Accounting wrote...

Is that right? You must overwhelmingly hate fiction if you actually believe 'the guy with the bigger gun always wins,' since fiction overwhelmingly goes out of it's way to refute that idea. Fiction overwhelmingly features stories with the protagonists facing a superficially stronger opponent, with a 'bigger gun,' so to speak, and yet emering victorious.

David you have returned to us!

Instruct us all in the ways of Heroism for the forum is dark and full of the unheroic!

[ImaginaryMatter]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Bob from Accounting wrote...

Is that right? You must overwhelmingly hate fiction if you actually believe 'the guy with the bigger gun always wins,' since fiction overwhelmingly goes out of it's way to refute that idea. Fiction overwhelmingly features stories with the protagonists facing a superficially stronger opponent, with a 'bigger gun,' so to speak, and yet emering victorious.

How are you doing David? Have a good ban?

That's what I thought too, you're not alone Massively.