317 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Cost has nothing to do with the design of women in the Dragon Age games. Cost had something to do with the lack of women in the Mass Effect games.

I think it was an issue of technical cost as much as actual resources, judging from some dev posts. 

Human males and some of the aliens (batarians) used literally the same body model, and asari were just human female bodies with different heads attached. But every extra body type they had to load into memory for that level meant fewer things that could be there overall, and I think at some point it was decided that this couldn't extend to unique female body types for some of the alien species. Since salarians and turians (I'm pretty sure) used their own unique body rigs, making female versions would've been another two rigs that needed to be loaded every time one appeared in a level. 

We can certainly debate whether introducing female aliens should've been a higher priority when they were working out how much could fit into a level at once, but I think in Mass Effect's case they were certainly pushing the technical limits of the PS3 and Xbox 360 pretty hard even from day one.

You are correct. That's what I was referring to but I realize my use of 'cost' probably made it sounds like a money issue as opposed to cost and benefits of having another model loaded. Thank you for elaborating.

[KaiserShep]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

in all honesty... im seriously surprised no one has brought it up... "Womens hands...... DA2...."


Be horrified and sick, MWHAHAHAHAHAHA.

anyway, seriously please please BW never ever do this again....

Hands were weird in both games so far. In DA:O, they were huge, like facehuggers attached to their wrists. In DA2, well...I dunno what was going on with those fingers, but I'm just glad that people wore gloves most of the time.

[PinkDiamondstl]

It's not just the females you know.

[DRTJR]

The Drell where designed solely as Female Eye candy.

[Aremce]

Uhm. DA is not the real world. While Thedas does seem to resemble medieval Europe (in some way), it's culture is certainly different - and especially in the aspect of women in the society. Women are just as capable and highly regarded as men are, there is no sign of oppression and because of that also no sign of feminism ... or at least I didn't notice in none of my multiple playthroughs.

[Tigerman123]

It'd be nice if the warriors had appropriate physiques, watching rousey mcann last night, they're hardly waifs, nor were the legends of female boxing, rijker and wolfe

[ElitePinecone]

dan109 wrote...

I've always found the topic of "realistic" plate armor for women to be very strange. Everyone here realizes that women never actually fought in plate armor on account of being too weak to use it effectively, right? That's reality.

Just to reinforce what other people are saying, this just isn't true. Even if you discount the fact that women's participation in combat was restricted because of a whole heap of cultural factors that had nothing to do with their physical strength, it's nonsense to suggest that all women would've been unable to fight effectively wearing plate armour.

If you lined up every man and every woman from weakest to strongest, statistically the average man is going to be stronger than the average woman. But a fair proportion of the women *are* going to be stonger than the average man. Even if the absolute numbers are smaller, it's undeniably true that there are some women who are stronger than many men. 

Here's a normal distribution for height, for example:



In physical testing for something like modern military service, when all things are considered fewer women than men will pass strength/speed/endurance thresholds - but many will still pass. If you judge combat efficiency based on physical qualifications, then women are capable of achieving the same level as 

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 23 février 2014 - 01:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Less a gender war than a cultural development, and hardly unique to the west. Your language might not have gender pronouns, but gender certainly wasn't equal in the dominant cultures of the Pacific and Indian oceans.

[Br3admax]

Sten isn't even from the same culture as everyone else. He's the least western analogue in the entire game. Besides, woman are treated equally, they just do not usually join armies and such. Ever since Aveline herself was posthumously knighted. You're twisting the words of a lot of people. And as Dean said, gender bias is most certainly not western. But instead of attacking cultures,let's just leave it at that.

[Nightdragon8]

Br3ad wrote...

Sten isn't even from the same culture as everyone else. He's the least western analogue in the entire game. Besides, woman are treated equally, they just do not usually join armies and such. Ever since Aveline herself was posthumously knighted. You're twisting the words of a lot of people. And as Dean said, gender bias is most certainly not western. But instead of attacking cultures,let's just leave it at that.

heh pretty much completely world wide expect for a very few places. I would think.

It wouldn't be as harsh down to the village level but generally in the higher levels of government is pretty much all male until recently.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Sten isn't even from the same culture as everyone else. He's the least western analogue in the entire game. Besides, woman are treated equally, they just do not usually join armies and such. Ever since Aveline herself was posthumously knighted. You're twisting the words of a lot of people. And as Dean said, gender bias is most certainly not western. But instead of attacking cultures,let's just leave it at that.

heh pretty much completely world wide expect for a very few places. I would think.

It wouldn't be as harsh down to the village level but generally in the higher levels of government is pretty much all male until recently.

And even the exceptions often proved the rule: Catherine the Great and more than a few strong female rulers existed in the context of male-dominated societies. Comparing an Admiral to a reigning monarch would be less impressive... if either of them really meant anything as far as trends.

[Gwydden]

I cannot help but wonder why so many people seem to believe sexualizing women is detrimental to their gender and making them "unappealing" is somehow female empowerment. I have said it many times, but do you see many men worrying about how almost every man in DA being muscular? This sort of gender self conciousness hinders equality rather than helping.

That is not to say there aren't certain exaggerating examples that make me facepalm. The moment Flemeth showed up in DA2 would be one of those. But I honestly fail to see any problem in what the OP is pointing out.

No, I don't see how the male models of the different races look more different from each other than the female models. No, I don't think qunari would look different to humans without their skin color and horns. In fact, I managed to finish my first DAO run without noticing Sten wasn't human. No, I don't see the need to make the races more distinct. They aren't suposed to be, which is the reason we call them races and not species. If anything, I'd do away with the horns and weird skin color of the qunari.

And it is not only the females from any race that are attractive. The same goes to men. Varric, the only dwarf who features significantly in DA2 can and is considered handsome by many. Because that's yet another thing, beauty is a subjective concept. I didn't think the elves in DA2, the dwarves in DAO, the asari and quarians in ME, etc. were attractive. For that matter, I failed to see the appeal of Morrigan's physique, which is why when I got here and I saw everyone say it was "fanservice" I was baffled.

[Pasquale1234]

dan109 wrote...

A quote from the link you provided. The very first paragraph in fact:

"While this is not necessarily evidence of women warriors, it does show how illustrators and artists imagined that a woman might have worn armor – in many cases, how an illustrator imagined that a queen from centuries before might have looked, though wearing armor contemporary to the illustrator’s own era."

I didn't say there weren't any drawings of women warriors wearing plate. And I'm sure you can dig up some images of queens and such in ceremonial armor, but its design has nothing to do with practical combat applications.

I expected you would say as much, if you looked at it at all.

The problem is that the same sort of artwork is assumed to be realistic when it depicts men doing the same sorts of things.  Someone posting a collection of artwork of men in armor would likely not post such a disclaimer.  You do realize, I hope, that much of what is believed to be "real" history is derived from such artifacts.

[Alejandrawrr]

 Yeah, I'm sure it's been said before but it's not like you girls (or boys like me ) are deprived of eye candy either... *coughsAlistairCullenZevranFenrisNathanielAndersEtc* I mean, even Varric was somewhat handsome IMO and definitely charming, just a dwarf. Let's not forget the unromanceable but still fairly good looking and fit Sebastian. Not to mention the default male body is not a bad looking one at all

None of the females we've seen so far in DA:I seem fanservicey like Isabela or Morrigan to a lesser extent, and we have had females like Shale or Sigrun who were about as completely un-sexy as Sten, but interesting and/or endearing as hell (in the case of Shale anyway, don't remember Sigrun too well). All in all both genders could use some more variation, but the gender inequality thing is wearing a bit thin in this case. When it comes to armor, things are clearly uneven in most games (to a lesser extent in DA of course), but looks-wise both genders are pretty much equally unrealistic.

[Rorschachinstein]

Do we need more variety. That isn't a yes or no question. It's always how much more variety

Modifié par Rorschachinstein, 23 février 2014 - 04:20 .

[In Exile]

Gwydden wrote...

I cannot help but wonder why so many people seem to believe sexualizing women is detrimental to their gender and making them "unappealing" is somehow female empowerment. I have said it many times, but do you see many men worrying about how almost every man in DA being muscular? This sort of gender self conciousness hinders equality rather than helping.

Recognzing that there is a continuum in apperance is empowering. There are lots of cultural reasons why it's a great deal more empowering for women than for men, but the basic idea is the same: by showing that not all women look a certain way, it undercuts the idea that women have to look a certain way to look "good" or "normal" .

[CybAnt1]

Since the demographics of gaming have been raised in this thread, allow me to offer actual data. I know some people run from it like vampires from sunlight.

Quoting from this PDF:
http://www.theesa.co...esa_ef_2013.pdf

The average age of game players is 30. 36% of gamers are over 36.
Average age of the most frequent game purchaser: 35. (*)

55% of gamers are male. 45% are female.
Women 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (31%) than boys age 17 or younger (19%).

63% of households still game on their PCs. 68% game on gaming consoles.

Now here's some good, bad, or indifferent news for CRPG gamers, depending on how you view it.

Role Playing Games (this probably includes both JRPGs and WRPGs) make up 6.5% of video games sold, in general.
OTOH, they make up 28% of PC/computer games (which probably includes MMOs).

Mass Effect 3 was only the 13th most popular video game of 2012 -- the highest ranking for a CRPG, even if it is (imho) an action-RPG.

On the other hand, when it came to computer games, Diablo III (ARPG), Guild Wars 2 (MMO), WoW Pandaria (MMO), SWTOR (MMO), and Skyrim: Elder Scrolls top the COMPUTER gaming list, all within the Top 10.

Easy conclusions that can be drawn:

1) older people do play games.
2) women do play games.
and here's my takeaway for #3

3) RPGs (if we include the MMOs) still dominate computer gaming, although as gaming is increasingly moving to consoles, console gamers seem to prefer the action and shooter genre over RPGs.

(which is why CRPGs are moving in the action-shooter direction ... which is nothing braver than reading a marketing statement ... and now I'll duck.)

(*) This is good news, because I like it when actual data makes my own personal situation with gaming feel less oddball. No, I am not 35, but at one point not too long ago I was. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 23 février 2014 - 04:26 .

[Steppenwolf]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

How would it benefit? Why do things just to do them instead of creating characters organically? Why make race a focus at all?

A benefit, it seems, is simply that some people would go "hey, I appreciate that."

Here's part of the issue I think people have: most of our staff is white, and as such our "default" when "race doesn't matter at all" is simply "white person."

However, if race doesn't matter at all, then all feedback like this is is a thought of "hey, can you make someone with a different colour skin?"  To which, if race doesn't matter at all, only changes something at the beginning of the development and wouldn't affect the organic creation of a character.


As a white person though, I have a predisposition to think of race (or other deviations from myself, really) only when I think it DOES matter.  Which is problematic, because it means that without any external influence, in a game where race doesn't matter I'll be inclined to make primarily white people.  Now, I'm just making a supposition here, but the idea that I may see things differently if I grew up rarely seeing white people in the fiction I consumed could be disappointing doesn't seem WAY out there for me.


So, if we're at a situation where you and I feel race doesn't matter and we don't care, while someone else goes "Hey, I think it'd be value added if you mixed it up a little bit," and it doesn't actually take much beyond letting art/design know "make this person different than a white person" then it seems like it's a small gain for a small cost.  You and I won't care, but someone else comes away feeling a bit better about the game.

Even then, there being no benefit or detriment to doing so doesn't strike me as a compelling reason not to.


Or are you suggesting that going to an artist and saying "draw me a man" and "draw me a black man" (or even more generally, draw me a non-white man) is a significant self-imposed restriction?

If I understand Basil's point, it's more of a criticism of shallow taste and token minoritism when you include a token minority for the primary purpose of being a token minority rather than a role in their own right (which would be legitimate).

There is a vague, nebulous point at which interacting with someone solely on the basis of them being a minority figure is condescending or even reflective of discriminatory mindsets. A point at which you're identifying someone entirely by their category, and not at all by their character, which is just as stuck in engaging in stereotyping (or, rather, how you will be stereotyped if you don't) and just as uninterested in the individual as people who discriminate against [insert category here]. You're still treating people according to their [category], rather than their personhood.

This. So much this.

[Pasquale1234]

CybAnt1 wrote...

3) RPGs (if we include the MMOs) still dominate computer gaming, although as gaming is increasingly moving to consoles, console gamers seem to prefer the action and shooter genre over RPGs.

(which is why CRPGs are moving in the action-shooter direction ... which is nothing braver than reading a marketing statement ... and now I'll duck.)

it's possible - perhaps likely - that this is the reason, but it may be an unfortunate assumption on the part of data analysts.  There are a lot of reasons why people might prefer to play on a console that have little to do with preference for action.

(*) This is good news, because I like it when actual data makes my own personal situation with gaming feel less oddball. No, I am not 35, but at one point not too long ago I was. 

Similar stats from Australia reveal that 19% of gamers are age 51 or over.  No real surprise, at least not to me, because baby boomers created the games that the "gaming generation" grew up on.

[Ianamus]

Gwydden wrote...

I cannot help but wonder why so many people seem to believe sexualizing women is detrimental to their gender and making them "unappealing" is somehow female empowerment. I have said it many times, but do you see many men worrying about how almost every man in DA being muscular? This sort of gender self conciousness hinders equality rather than helping.

Because a muscular and powerful male character is not the same as a sexualised male character. 

A lot of men see the "ideal" man as muscular and want to be seen as muscular and powerful themselves, while few women see the "ideal" woman as being a chanimail bikini-wearing warrior or want to be one themselves. That is the difference. 

Displaying men who are muscular and powerful and overly sexualised women is showing the "ideal" woman from a male perspecitve and the "ideal" male from a male persective. 

Tera is an example of game that actually sexualizes male charcters: 




And a lot of male players complained and got angry about it. 

Modifié par EJ107, 23 février 2014 - 05:23 .

[Viktoria Landers]

I'm not trying to say we should abolish all sexiness from the game. I'm just saying it would be nice to have more variety. For instance at this point the qunari female looks hot. Gone are the bulging muscles and the frankenstein forehead thing and the slightly stooped shoulders. If it weren't for the horns and the skin color, she actually wouldn't look like a different race AT ALL. But remove the horns and skin color from the male qunari, and he still looks non-human.


If the female dwarf wasn't standing next to a male dwarf, she wouldn't look non-human either. Just short.

That's what they are described as "humanoid" races. Because they bear many physical similarities to humans.

[Ianamus]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Similar stats from Australia reveal that 19% of gamers are age 51 or over.  No real surprise, at least not to me, because baby boomers created the games that the "gaming generation" grew up on.

To be fair though, those sort of statistics include my mum who only plays Candy crush and Dragon city. The statistics for AAA games that actually have an issue with the representation of female characters are probably very different. 

Modifié par EJ107, 23 février 2014 - 05:48 .

[Iakus]

Gwydden wrote...

I cannot help but wonder why so many people seem to believe sexualizing women is detrimental to their gender and making them "unappealing" is somehow female empowerment. I have said it many times, but do you see many men worrying about how almost every man in DA being muscular? This sort of gender self conciousness hinders equality rather than helping.

That is not to say there aren't certain exaggerating examples that make me facepalm. The moment Flemeth showed up in DA2 would be one of those. But I honestly fail to see any problem in what the OP is pointing out.

No, I don't see how the male models of the different races look more different from each other than the female models. No, I don't think qunari would look different to humans without their skin color and horns. In fact, I managed to finish my first DAO run without noticing Sten wasn't human. No, I don't see the need to make the races more distinct. They aren't suposed to be, which is the reason we call them races and not species. If anything, I'd do away with the horns and weird skin color of the qunari.

And it is not only the females from any race that are attractive. The same goes to men. Varric, the only dwarf who features significantly in DA2 can and is considered handsome by many. Because that's yet another thing, beauty is a subjective concept. I didn't think the elves in DA2, the dwarves in DAO, the asari and quarians in ME, etc. were attractive. For that matter, I failed to see the appeal of Morrigan's physique, which is why when I got here and I saw everyone say it was "fanservice" I was baffled.

Attractive women isn't the problem to me.  Regardless of race/species.  It's when Rule of Sexy takes over.  Like when a solemn mystic warrior runs around unzipped to the navel, or a renowned pirate queen fights wearing basically a long shirt and  a thong,  Things like that make me really facepalm and wonder if the audience is being taken seriously.

[Star fury]

DA series has many problems, a description of female characters is not one of them.

Modifié par Star fury, 23 février 2014 - 06:12 .

[Pasquale1234]

EJ107 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Similar stats from Australia reveal that 19% of gamers are age 51 or over.  No real surprise, at least not to me, because baby boomers created the games that the "gaming generation" grew up on.

To be fair though, those sort of statistics include my mum who only plays Candy crush and Dragon city. The statistics for AAA games that actually have an issue with the representation of female characters are probably very different. 

But isn't it equally true that the stats for other age groups also include those sorts of games?

The truth is, we don't know how many people in each age group are playing what sorts of games.  I can, however, tell you that some of the adults who started playing cRPGs when the very first C64s and Amigas appeared on the scene continue to play them to this day.