317 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I personally found Brass_Buckles to have a massive bias in her writings, assuming she is a her, towards only a female perspective on things. I would imagine if you were complaining about having an unfair perspective distribution, that the solution would not be to simply have an unfair perspective distribution towards the female side of things.

[Because it works better as a part 1, part 2.]

More on that however, I found it abosltuely non-relevent to the discussion of character models, the topic of this thread, and even more disagreeable, a attempt to monopolize harrasement as a female-centric issue. No offense to my fellow gamers who happen to be females, but the world does not revolve around you and people on multiplayer and online facets don't hate you because you are women. They hate you becasue that is the rule of the game, to hate everyone, regardless of what they are. I have a wide range of experiences of being targeted as a man, from my race, to the state I live in, to the sports I enjoy, to even something as simple as what class or character I play. People in multiplayer channels and online love to get under peoples skin and make them enraged, it's part of an indimidation factor that has played a heavy part in a lot of sports and recreational activities people have enjoyed. Women and men both trash talk and bully when they have leverage and don't need to face people one-on-one, they always have and always will. It's a universal trait of being a jerk, and it doesn't care what gender, race, nationality, or age you are, if it's something that can be attacked, it will be, by everyone.

People go after you being women because it's an easy target to go after, and because it tends to work, and you go on to make a big stink about it, validating your attacks actions as having been successful. If you want to break the cycle you should realize that the people mocking you are doing it for the sake of mocking, and that making them more aware of your feelings or any other movements to curtail the behavior will only lead to it surfacing in other areas. Do what everyone else, male or female, does when they don't want to deal with the degenerate dribble and verbal dihareea that comes from these multiplaying mike spamming folk, and mute them. That's what the button is for, and those harraseing you will realize they're not getting any reaction or fun little meltdown from it and move on to weaker prey.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 23 février 2014 - 11:34 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Silfren wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I personally found Brass_Buckles to have a massive bias in her writings, assuming she is a her, towards only a female perspective on things. I would imagine if you were complaining about having an unfair perspective distribution, that the solution would not be to simply have an unfair perspective distribution towards the female side of things.

SMH.  Typical: why bother adding to the discussion when you can just write up a summary dismissal of it by calling someone massively biased and claim that they just want to re-create the problem in a way that probably only bothers the complaining person because they aren't going to be the subject of the unfair distribution any more.

There's been a study done that indicates when women participate in a discussion 15% of the time, men perceive them as participating equally, and when they participate 30% of the time, men perceive them as dominating discussion.  The above statement smacks very much of the same mindset.  

I would ask for links to the study and proof that it's actually accepted as scientifically valid. Anyone can claim they did a study and found such and such results, but it takes actual validation through peer review before any of the findins should be taken seriously.

And if the mere mention of possible fault is enough to send that massive post crumbling to the ground, I can only draw the conclusion that the post relied too much on the crutch it was called out on in order to stand on it's own two feet, as it were.

[Heimdall]

Silfren wrote...
I'm not doing anything but calling bullsh*t on his attitude.  Especially where he refers to women as a specific subset of gamers, then generalizes everyone else as "people," and acts as if the problems *women* gamers face in the gaming community is caused NOT by a general "everyone," rather than admitting the reality that it's caused by MEN, specifically, who don't actually want to do anything but act as gate-keepers who do their best to shame, belittle, and mock women out of gaming culture.   All his crap in that post just shows that he's one of the people CAUSING the problem by acting as one of those gatekeepers.

You say that as if female gamers don't mock people.  I wouldn't call it uniquely male behavior or one uniquely triggered by gender.  I avoid multiplayer most of the time to avoid such antagonistic people.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Silfren wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Silfren wrote...

SMH.  Typical: why bother adding to the
discussion when you can just write up a summary dismissal of it by
calling someone massively biased and claim that they just want to
re-create the problem in a way that only bothers the complaining person
because they aren't going to be the subject of the unfair distribution
any more.

There's been a study done that indicates when women
participate in a discussion 15% of the time, men perceive them as
participating equally, and when they participate 30% of the time, men
perceive them as dominating discussion.  The above statement smacks very
much of the same mindset.  

Silfren wrote...

LISTEN UP, GIRLS!  SOMEONE'S GOT SOME MANSPLAININ' TO DO!  

Do you really think you're achieving anything other than validating his view of the complaints with this dismissive reaction?

I'm not doing anything but calling bullsh*t on his attitude.  Especially where he refers to women as a specific subset of gamers, then generalizes everyone else as "people," and acts as if the problems *women* gamers face in the gaming community is caused NOT by a general "everyone," rather than admitting the reality that it's caused by MEN, specifically, who don't actually want to do anything but act as gate-keepers who do their best to shame, belittle, and mock women out of gaming culture.   All his crap in that post just shows that he's one of the people CAUSING the problem by acting as one of those gatekeepers.

It really is quite adorable the way you desperately scramble to try and find ways I offended in that post instead of actually addressing any of the points. Why bother trying to disprove the universalism of bullying and harrasement, when you can just claim I'm being bias against women and attempt to bring down any argument against your table thumping.

Are you telling me women do not trash talk other women in gaming? Are you telling me women do not troll? That women are somehow above such practices and only men ever engage in that sort of discoure? You are so very naive, as being a bad person with little to no conscience by anonymous means is not something that can be restricted to one single physical trait given to us at birth, but a universal fact of human nature. You don't need to have a penis to be an jackass, and you certainly don't have to lack one to be a respectable human being offended by the very notion of being mean to someone for the sake of being mean. Honestly I don't know why you want to perpetuate the stereotype that woman are all sensitive flowers who wilt at the very thought of being uncivilized or corse. All I am saying is that the issue is not about men vs women, but humans being jerks to other humans, and people not realizing this in favor of dividing upon irrelevant physical differences.

You accuse men of being gate keepers but never consider the task you demand of said gate keepers, who can be men, women, transgendered, or anything in between, of actually needing to do. You demand they police thousands of people on a format that they may all be taking part in at once, and then get angry at them when they tell you the task might be expensive or hard ot achieve, being completely unreasonable. You can't stop people from being mean to one another, it's futile. And even if you do succeed, do you not think they will simply target other physical characteristics you have? Do you think bullying and harrasement ends just by telling the teacher and trying to give them time out?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 23 février 2014 - 11:47 .

[Master Warder Z_]

The Hierophant wrote...

I thought the gist of this thread was about some body type varieties for a few recurring npcs? This is seems like a camouflaged "how the fem pc should look like" thread instead.

Very Aware and obstute.

That's exactly what it is.

[Silfren]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I'm not doing anything but calling bullsh*t on his attitude.  Especially where he refers to women as a specific subset of gamers, then generalizes everyone else as "people," and acts as if the problems *women* gamers face in the gaming community is caused NOT by a general "everyone," rather than admitting the reality that it's caused by MEN, specifically, who don't actually want to do anything but act as gate-keepers who do their best to shame, belittle, and mock women out of gaming culture.   All his crap in that post just shows that he's one of the people CAUSING the problem by acting as one of those gatekeepers.

You say that as if female gamers don't mock people.  I wouldn't call it uniquely male behavior or one uniquely triggered by gender.  I avoid multiplayer most of the time to avoid such antagonistic people.

Try again.  It is THOROUGHLY documented that women are subjected to significant levels of harassment in gaming culture, by men specifically.  Not that this is the discussion at hand, but I am not the one who decided to start lecturing women in the most condescending tone possible about how to properly deal with mockery.

[Kymera X]

This thread is sick, I don't see anything useful in here

[CuriousArtemis]

Silfren wrote...

Try again.  It is THOROUGHLY documented that women are subjected to significant levels of harassment in gaming culture, by men specifically.  Not that this is the discussion at hand, but I am not the one who decided to start lecturing women in the most condescending tone possible about how to properly deal with mockery.

It is weird. The normal human reaction you'd think would be towards empathy. But maybe it makes them feel better about what they and others do if they blame the victim. Very sad though.

[MesTarrant]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I personally found Brass_Buckles to have a massive bias in her writings, assuming she is a her, towards only a female perspective on things. I would imagine if you were complaining about having an unfair perspective distribution, that the solution would not be to simply have an unfair perspective distribution towards the female side of things.

[Because it works better as a part 1, part 2.]

More on that however, I found it abosltuely non-relevent to the discussion of character models, the topic of this thread, and even more disagreeable, a attempt to monopolize harrasement as a female-centric issue. No offense to my fellow gamers who happen to be females, but the world does not revolve around you and people on multiplayer and online facets don't hate you because you are women. They hate you becasue that is the rule of the game, to hate everyone, regardless of what they are. I have a wide range of experiences of being targeted as a man, from my race, to the state I live in, to the sports I enjoy, to even something as simple as what class or character I play. People in multiplayer channels and online love to get under peoples skin and make them enraged, it's part of an indimidation factor that has played a heavy part in a lot of sports and recreational activities people have enjoyed. Women and men both trash talk and bully when they have leverage and don't need to face people one-on-one, they always have and always will. It's a universal trait of being a jerk, and it doesn't care what gender, race, nationality, or age you are, if it's something that can be attacked, it will be, by everyone.

People go after you being women because it's an easy target to go after, and because it tends to work, and you go on to make a big stink about it, validating your attacks actions as having been successful. If you want to break the cycle you should realize that the people mocking you are doing it for the sake of mocking, and that making them more aware of your feelings or any other movements to curtail the behavior will only lead to it surfacing in other areas. Do what everyone else, male or female, does when they don't want to deal with the degenerate dribble and verbal dihareea that comes from these multiplaying mike spamming folk, and mute them. That's what the button is for, and those harraseing you will realize they're not getting any reaction or fun little meltdown from it and move on to weaker prey.

As a male, you cannot sit there and try to devalue the concerns that this person has brought up. That's like me, a white person, holding up my hand and saying "Noooow wait just a darn-tootin' minute" to a black person who claims to be treated unfairly in some area. Not unless I want to sound like I'm living in my own little world with my head in the sand.


Yes everyone gets harassed from time to time on multiplayer, the point is is that it happens exponentially more to women.


Your solution is for women to sit there and ignore it and "hopefully it will go away." That's not how societies progress. Do you tell black people, or Asian people, to just sit there and wait for the racism to go away? I hope not. The way we combat horrible behavior is by calling those responsible out on it.


However a lot of women DO sit there, mutely, on multiplayer. And you know what this leads to? To men thinking that they still dominate the gaming industry because there are no women around.

[Heimdall]

Silfren wrote...

Try again.  It is THOROUGHLY documented that women are subjected to significant levels of harassment in gaming culture, by men specifically.  Not that this is the discussion at hand, but I am not the one who decided to start lecturing women in the most condescending tone possible about how to properly deal with mockery.

I did not dispute this, though such documentation would only be relevant if it could be compared to how often men are harrassed by men and how often women are harrassed by women in gaming.  I personally don't doubt that women recieve grief for their gender from men in gaming.  I just think it has more to do with antagonistic jerks latching on to anything they can to be antagonistic jerks than anything as systematic or focused as you describe.

[Silfren]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You accuse men of being gate keepers but never consider the task you demand of said gate keepers, who can be men, women, transgendered, or anything in between, of actually needing to do. You demand they police thousands of people on a format that they may all be taking part in at once, and then get angry at them when they tell you the task might be expensive or hard ot achieve, being completely unreasonable. You can't stop people from being mean to one another, it's futile. And even if you do succeed, do you not think they will simply target other physical characteristics you have? Do you think bullying and harrasement ends just by telling the teacher and trying to give them time out?

What the heck are you even talking about now?  I haven't demanded any tasks of anyone.  Nor have I said that gatekeepers HAVE a job to do.  I haven't said a word about anyone policing anyone.  I only referred to those men who take it upon themselves to BE gatekeepers against women, in precisely the way you were doing in your mansplaining post.

[MesTarrant]

jam0603 wrote...

This thread is sick, I don't see anything useful in here

Keep out then. I don't normally click on or comment on threads that I don't think are worth my time.

[Veruin]

Silfren wrote...

Try again.  It is THOROUGHLY documented that women are subjected to significant levels of harassment in gaming culture, by men specifically.  Not that this is the discussion at hand, but I am not the one who decided to start lecturing women in the most condescending tone possible about how to properly deal with mockery.

If it's been so throughly documented, it shouldn't take you that long to give sources.

[Natashina]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

<Snipped a wonderful post to save on space.>

I know a few folks have come down on you for that long post, but ignore them.  Thanks for taking the time to write this.  It was on topic and really heartfelt.  I found myself nodding the entire time. 

Since we don't have a "like" button on the forums, I'll leave ya with this:

[MesTarrant]

Veruin wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Try again.  It is THOROUGHLY documented that women are subjected to significant levels of harassment in gaming culture, by men specifically.  Not that this is the discussion at hand, but I am not the one who decided to start lecturing women in the most condescending tone possible about how to properly deal with mockery.

If it's been so throughly documented, it shouldn't take you that long to give sources.

You're right, it doesn't take long. Here's a link to the very first hit - took me about 1 second. It would do you well to do some of your own research too rather than sit there and wait for it to come to you.

[kukumburr]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

People in multiplayer channels and online love to get under peoples skin and make them enraged, it's part of an indimidation factor that has played a heavy part in a lot of sports and recreational activities people have enjoyed. Women and men both trash talk and bully when they have leverage and don't need to face people one-on-one, they always have and always will. It's a universal trait of being a jerk, and it doesn't care what gender, race, nationality, or age you are, if it's something that can be attacked, it will be, by everyone.

I just want to say that as a woman who raided in World of Warcraft for ~5 years, it's not general harassment that bothers me. You're right that everyone experiences those kind of attacks in multiplayer games. Its that you're treated differently. I usually played male characters because I thought the models were more interesting, so when I would first join a raid or a new guild they treated me like I was a guy and I didn't bother to correct them because I didn't care. However, I would have to use voice chat during raids so they would find out anyways. When they did a lot of guys would suddenly treat me completely differently. When they talked to me they suddenly started using smiley emoticons and talking to me like I was a helpless child. And if I asked them to stop I was accused of causing drama. Obviously not everyone was like this, there were plently of people who didn't care that I was a woman, but it was prevalent enough that it made me want to avoid voice chat as much as possible. Anyways my point is there are people who specifically target women and I don't think you should just handwave it away. It's worth discussing.

Also, I thought Brass_Buckles was mostly talking about the sexualization of female characters more so than body type. Where are the male characters whose armor consists of a thong with no pants?

[Master Warder Z_]

MesTarrant wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I personally found Brass_Buckles to have a massive bias in her writings, assuming she is a her, towards only a female perspective on things. I would imagine if you were complaining about having an unfair perspective distribution, that the solution would not be to simply have an unfair perspective distribution towards the female side of things.

[Because it works better as a part 1, part 2.]

More on that however, I found it abosltuely non-relevent to the discussion of character models, the topic of this thread, and even more disagreeable, a attempt to monopolize harrasement as a female-centric issue. No offense to my fellow gamers who happen to be females, but the world does not revolve around you and people on multiplayer and online facets don't hate you because you are women. They hate you becasue that is the rule of the game, to hate everyone, regardless of what they are. I have a wide range of experiences of being targeted as a man, from my race, to the state I live in, to the sports I enjoy, to even something as simple as what class or character I play. People in multiplayer channels and online love to get under peoples skin and make them enraged, it's part of an indimidation factor that has played a heavy part in a lot of sports and recreational activities people have enjoyed. Women and men both trash talk and bully when they have leverage and don't need to face people one-on-one, they always have and always will. It's a universal trait of being a jerk, and it doesn't care what gender, race, nationality, or age you are, if it's something that can be attacked, it will be, by everyone.

People go after you being women because it's an easy target to go after, and because it tends to work, and you go on to make a big stink about it, validating your attacks actions as having been successful. If you want to break the cycle you should realize that the people mocking you are doing it for the sake of mocking, and that making them more aware of your feelings or any other movements to curtail the behavior will only lead to it surfacing in other areas. Do what everyone else, male or female, does when they don't want to deal with the degenerate dribble and verbal dihareea that comes from these multiplaying mike spamming folk, and mute them. That's what the button is for, and those harraseing you will realize they're not getting any reaction or fun little meltdown from it and move on to weaker prey.

As a male, you cannot sit there and try to devalue the concerns that this person has brought up. That's like me, a white person, holding up my hand and saying "Noooow wait just a darn-tootin' minute" to a black person who claims to be treated unfairly in some area. Not unless I want to sound like I'm living in my own little world with my head in the sand.


Yes everyone gets harassed from time to time on multiplayer, the point is is that it happens exponentially more to women.


Your solution is for women to sit there and ignore it and "hopefully it will go away." That's not how societies progress. Do you tell black people, or Asian people, to just sit there and wait for the racism to go away? I hope not. The way we combat horrible behavior is by calling those responsible out on it.


However a lot of women DO sit there, mutely, on multiplayer. And you know what this leads to? To men thinking that they still dominate the gaming industry because there are no women around.

Brotarian had a point though.

This drivel really doesn't have a place in this thread and tis sort of magically sucking up all the attention to an off topic subject.