317 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Roxy Ferret wrote...

Not to add to the derailment, but I used a Digital® mainframe.

I'm not sure what we used. We time-shared to a central system run by the county. Teletype terminals; we didn't get CRTs until some Commodore PETs showed up in my senior year. (It was either those or Trash-80s)

[CuriousArtemis]

MesTarrant wrote...

I watched a youtube vid with some designer laughing about the idea of a female krogan (who in the end was Eve) and how to possibly make her female. It's like it never occured to him to just make her look bad-ass as opposed to sexy. (In the end she looked like a regular krogan just completely covered up... Well it's a step in the right direction I guess.)

Hey! Could you tell us what video this was (or give a link)? I'm doing some work on gaming and the male/female gaze, and I would LOVE this as a source. Pretty please?

MesTarrant wrote...


Now I'm looking at this Dragon Age character art. The link seems to say it's for DA2, so I don't know if this is an indication of what Inquisition will be like... But anyway, even though I really think Dragon Age is miles better in this sense than Mass Effect, I still think the game suffers (or is going to suffer) from the same limitations when it comes to creating cool female characters.

Interestingly, no one addressed this point of yours, which isn't surprising (because it's fairly inarguable). Female versions of aliens/fantasy people are sexy; males are not. (Males are muscular and powerful because that is the straight male fantasy, in as much as female are to be sexy.) Males do not have to have attractive faces whereas females do. Females must be somewhat human so as to make the male viewer/player feel comfortable about desiring her; meanwhile, the male character does not need to serve as an object of desire for the straight male player. 

And no one is addressing your point about there being plenty of money in the budget to produce male turians, volus, drell, batarians, krogan (ME), qunari, and dwarves (DA2), but not a single cent left over to produce females of this same species. The female is gaming is almost always the Other; she comes "after" the male. That's a great example.

Anyway, pretty please can I have that video link?? 

Modifié par motomotogirl, 23 février 2014 - 01:42 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Roxy Ferret wrote...

Alan? Almost 33 is just at/after the inception of video gaming? I love your thinking, but I was video gaming WAY ahead of you. BBSing was my first love, with all of its text based gaming, dial-up quirks, and vast innovations that lead to what is now the current consensus of video gaming. We led the pack. I'll gladly trade your age, but not for my video gaming experience.

~ Roxy

Well, I'd consider "after" to be within the span of 10 years.  I'm a Nintendo era person, but I was thinking early computer games and the Atari (and competitors) as the widescale push for gaming.

The only reason why I'd put myself at "inception" is that it could be argued that gaming, and who it's marketed towards now, was heavily influenced by the pushes Nintendo made in the 80s (the Atari was marketed more as a system for families, while the Nintendo was pushed as a toy for boys) in the aftermath of the video game crash.

I'm 33, and I agree that we are the video game generation, Allan! I was playing on the Commodore 64 when I was a wee tot. Nintendo came a bit later. I know more 30+ people who game than those under 30, and I know many, many women who game. Of course, as 30+ person myself, I don't generally associate with younger people. But conversely, the young person doesn't associate much with older people, and so is unaware of their gaming habits. 

Modifié par motomotogirl, 23 février 2014 - 01:45 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Mirrman70 wrote...

I just want one of you pro-female-non-sexiness people to admit that they make most of the male characters ideally attractive. I don't see very many ugly men either...

Is anyone here not "pro-female"? I would find that rather alarming and troubling...

I also don't think wanting a variety of female body types is not anything to thumb one's nose at. Certainly feeling frustrated that there's always inevitably money in the budget to produce male aliens but not female ones --unless they're sexy-- is a valid point, and making fun of that point hints at a certain level of immaturity and lack of emapthy.

re: BioWare making most male characters ideally attractive... this may be the case for important NPCs like Alistair and Fenris, but the average Fereldan or Kirkwall male citizen is, well, rather average. Most dwarves are not traditionally attractive, and no male elf except Fenris was (of course that can be argued, but generally speaking). There were many average and way below average male characters, such as Emile, Hubert, your random guard, noble, or templar, etc. Whereas I think most of the female NPCs were quite pretty. Look at Hawke's mother versus Gamlen. Same family, and Leandra is actually older. But she's a silver fox, whereas Gamlen is, well, lol.

[brushyourteeth]

This is an interesting topic.

I think for me the body type situation is of less concern. In DA:I we'll have four female body types represented by the four races, and that's actually going to cover a lot more ground than a lot of video games do. For me the issue from there is twofold:

1.) That all the body types represented are shown in a manner that holds them at equal value. One is not more beautiful or more valid than the other. Elves aren't more attractive than dwarves, just different. Humans aren't superior to elves, just different. A girl with smaller breasts can be just as beautiful and IS just as valuable, and a girl with more curves on her is just a different kind of beauty than the one that's tall and slender.

2.) There's a lot that can be done simply with faces and personalities, and not every female that's portrayed as admirable or desirable is young and incredibly attractive and flirtatiously non-threatening. I thought Aveline was an amazing example of this in DAII, and I was sooo excited to see players wishing they could have romanced her even though she wasn't a bombshell or a sex kitten. Women who are plain or average could have a greater role in the game in a way that's not "LOL you're ugly and that's the punchline".

As an aside, though, I hope the female elves don't have crazy balloon-ish breasts this time around. The other three races will be pretty busty, and the elves can stand to be a little bit different. More Audrey than Marilyn.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 23 février 2014 - 02:54 .

[General TSAR]

[quote]Humans aren't superior to elves[quote]
Yeah-huh.

[CuriousArtemis]

Qistina wrote...

Starsyn wrote...
I can tell you've never been married, dear. Thanks for the chuckle though. That was adorably naive. <pats head>

yes i am not married yet...but most married men i see have round bellies...their wives don't mind about it, because round shaped means perfect, it is round, it represent that the husband is happy and they are secured...the roundness of belly symbolize serenity and temperament, there is no tension to keep up shape because the couple accepted the person, not the body...it is an everlasting love...

round belly = happy husband...

*cough* Sounds more like he's had an everlasting round of beers at the pub before coming home each night 

[Allan Schumacher]

I don't see how any of this matters for the topic anyway. Even if you're right, if the devs don't believe that the demographics are what you think they are they won't design games around those demographics.

To be fair, I speak on behalf of myself in a topic like this (and almost anywhere else, really).

I know more 30+ people who game than those under 30, and I know many,
many women who game. Of course, as 30+ person myself, I don't generally
associate with younger people. But conversely, the young person doesn't
associate much with older people, and so is unaware of their gaming
habits.

Thanks motomotogirl, and that's definitely the point I was trying to illustrate.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 23 février 2014 - 02:52 .

[Steppenwolf]

I'm opposed to the entire notion of diversity for the sake of diversity. It's not BioWare's job to make great fat characters or great black characters or great huge female characters. If you approach writing/designing/creating like that then you've removed art from the equation and made into just that: an equation.

[Versus Omnibus]

My biggest complaint with the female models in many games (besides how much they signal women's breasts and curves) is that the muscles don't match that of a warrior. Even Aveline, who everybody said was built like a human battering ram, had arms skinnier then mine!

I know Bioware would have to use the PC's body for NPCs but really I could care less if every women was toned and well-muscled. I just a female hero built like a warrior and not a swimsuit model.

[n7stormrunner]

motomotogirl wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Starsyn wrote...
I can tell you've never been married, dear. Thanks for the chuckle though. That was adorably naive. <pats head>

yes i am not married yet...but most married men i see have round bellies...their wives don't mind about it, because round shaped means perfect, it is round, it represent that the husband is happy and they are secured...the roundness of belly symbolize serenity and temperament, there is no tension to keep up shape because the couple accepted the person, not the body...it is an everlasting love...

round belly = happy husband...

*cough* Sounds more like he's had an everlasting round of beers at the pub before coming home each night 

or just italian... no really pasta will make you fat... great now I went lasagna.

[General TSAR]

BasilKarlo wrote...

I'm opposed to the entire notion of diversity for the sake of diversity

(Brofist)

[CuriousArtemis]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Even Aveline, who everybody said was built like a human battering ram, had arms skinnier then mine!

Actually, Aveline's starting outfit is unique to her! So no excuses for the devs! 

[CuriousArtemis]

n7stormrunner wrote...


or just italian... no really pasta will make you fat... great now I went lasagna.

Dem carbs, I tell ya! Hey, have you tried spaghetti squash? It will change your life 

Modifié par motomotogirl, 23 février 2014 - 03:10 .

[CuriousArtemis]

BasilKarlo wrote...

I'm opposed to the entire notion of diversity for the sake of diversity. It's not BioWare's job to make great fat characters or great black characters or great huge female characters. If you approach writing/designing/creating like that then you've removed art from the equation and made into just that: an equation.

I take it by "diversity" you mean "something other than super fit straight white guys," eh?  Ah yes, it's always such a chore then!

[n7stormrunner]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

My biggest complaint with the female models in many games (besides how much they signal women's breasts and curves) is that the muscles don't match that of a warrior. Even Aveline, who everybody said was built like a human battering ram, had arms skinnier then mine!

I know Bioware would have to use the PC's body for NPCs but really I could care less if every women was toned and well-muscled. I just a female hero built like a warrior and not a swimsuit model.

I agree... then again I like muscular women more then swimsuit models.

this a personal theory of mine I think besides fanservice the reason females in video games, anmie, and comics  have large beasts and/or hips is early on and to degree still those meda tend to be a little androgynous.

[kukumburr]

BasilKarlo wrote...

I'm opposed to the entire notion of diversity for the sake of diversity. It's not BioWare's job to make great fat characters or great black characters or great huge female characters. If you approach writing/designing/creating like that then you've removed art from the equation and made into just that: an equation.

Is it diversity for the sake of diversity though? If nothing else I would think it's diversity for the sake of appealing to a wider audience.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

n7stormrunner wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

My biggest complaint with the female models in many games (besides how much they signal women's breasts and curves) is that the muscles don't match that of a warrior. Even Aveline, who everybody said was built like a human battering ram, had arms skinnier then mine!

I know Bioware would have to use the PC's body for NPCs but really I could care less if every women was toned and well-muscled. I just a female hero built like a warrior and not a swimsuit model.

I agree... then again I like muscular women more then swimsuit models.

this a personal theory of mine I think besides fanservice the reason females in video games, anmie, and comics  have large beasts and/or hips is early on and to degree still those meda tend to be a little androgynous.

at least it goes both ways though. I mean yes the women characters are sexualized in those media types, but so are the men characters by having them all be thin, fit, attractive guys.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 23 février 2014 - 03:21 .

[Iron Fist]

I want more dwarven and elven women of color.

[Steppenwolf]

kukumburr wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

I'm opposed to the entire notion of diversity for the sake of diversity. It's not BioWare's job to make great fat characters or great black characters or great huge female characters. If you approach writing/designing/creating like that then you've removed art from the equation and made into just that: an equation.

Is it diversity for the sake of diversity though? If nothing else I would think it's diversity for the sake of appealing to a wider audience.

That is diversity for the sake of diversity. And are those the sorts of people you want playing your games? People who only support products that feature people that look like them?

[n7stormrunner]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

n7stormrunner wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

My biggest complaint with the female models in many games (besides how much they signal women's breasts and curves) is that the muscles don't match that of a warrior. Even Aveline, who everybody said was built like a human battering ram, had arms skinnier then mine!

I know Bioware would have to use the PC's body for NPCs but really I could care less if every women was toned and well-muscled. I just a female hero built like a warrior and not a swimsuit model.

I agree... then again I like muscular women more then swimsuit models.

this a personal theory of mine I think besides fanservice the reason females in video games, anmie, and comics  have large beasts and/or hips is early on and to degree still those meda tend to be a little androgynous.

at least it goes both ways though. I mean yes the women characters are sexualized in those media types, but so are the men characters by having them all be thin, fit, attractive guys.

yep, it's a shame that fact is so oftend  forgotten

Modifié par n7stormrunner, 23 février 2014 - 03:23 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

n7stormrunner wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

n7stormrunner wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

My biggest complaint with the female models in many games (besides how much they signal women's breasts and curves) is that the muscles don't match that of a warrior. Even Aveline, who everybody said was built like a human battering ram, had arms skinnier then mine!

I know Bioware would have to use the PC's body for NPCs but really I could care less if every women was toned and well-muscled. I just a female hero built like a warrior and not a swimsuit model.

I agree... then again I like muscular women more then swimsuit models.

this a personal theory of mine I think besides fanservice the reason females in video games, anmie, and comics  have large beasts and/or hips is early on and to degree still those meda tend to be a little androgynous.

at least it goes both ways though. I mean yes the women characters are sexualized in those media types, but so are the men characters by having them all be thin, fit, attractive guys.

yep, it's a shame that fact is so oftend  forgotten

Agreed.

[brushyourteeth]

BasilKarlo wrote...

kukumburr wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

I'm opposed to the entire notion of diversity for the sake of diversity. It's not BioWare's job to make great fat characters or great black characters or great huge female characters. If you approach writing/designing/creating like that then you've removed art from the equation and made into just that: an equation.

Is it diversity for the sake of diversity though? If nothing else I would think it's diversity for the sake of appealing to a wider audience.

That is diversity for the sake of diversity. And are those the sorts of people you want playing your games? People who only support products that feature people that look like them?

What about diversity for the sake of realism?

What about diversity for the sake of non-boredom?

I'm not going to propose we take it down to a science and have a perfect pie graph of diversity, but a game full of women who look, dress, and act like ideal medieval princess or porn stars only serves a very specific (and narrow minded) demographic of players, and the game is naturally going to suffer for it.

Likewise a game that only makes those types of women appear valuable will do the same.

[Iron Fist]

brushyourteeth wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

kukumburr wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

I'm opposed to the entire notion of diversity for the sake of diversity. It's not BioWare's job to make great fat characters or great black characters or great huge female characters. If you approach writing/designing/creating like that then you've removed art from the equation and made into just that: an equation.

Is it diversity for the sake of diversity though? If nothing else I would think it's diversity for the sake of appealing to a wider audience.

That is diversity for the sake of diversity. And are those the sorts of people you want playing your games? People who only support products that feature people that look like them?

What about diversity for the sake of realism?

What about diversity for the sake of non-boredom?

I'm not going to propose we take it down to a science and have a perfect pie graph of diversity, but a game full of women who look, dress, and act like ideal medieval princess or porn stars only serves a very specific (and narrow minded) demographic of players, and the game is naturally going to suffer for it.

I don't mean to sound creepy or go off on a tangent, but there are many different kinds of women in porn.

[durasteel]

Observe the difference in SWTOR: male body type 4 is fat, whereas female body type 4 is voluptuous. Burger gut vs. junk in the trunk.

I think for so many years the mindset is that males should be generally someone you could identify with or would want to be, while females are designed to be someone you would want to be with. It's getting better, though.

Modifié par durasteel, 23 février 2014 - 03:32 .