158 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Probably,Since the Dalish are not in good terms with the chantry as you mentioned.Also considering the fact that magic among the Elvhen is a gift that, according to the dalish, once all the elves possessed they probably won't be suspicious towards mages in the way a human society influenced by the Chantry and the Andrastian faith would be.
Though As far as the city elves are concerned,we can't say for sure,since they seem to adapt the culture and beliefs of the society they find themselves in.The majority of them have already converted a long time ago and are now considered Andrastians.

 

Elven mages from the Circles have found sanctuary with the clans in the past, like Aneirin the Healer and the unnamed elven mage referenced by Ariane who stole one of the elven tomes that had been taken by the Circle, after the fall of the Dales.

 

Given the willingness of the Kirkwall elves to adopt the Qun, it's also possible the elves might be willing to follow the tenants of the elven pantheon, given the view of the Andrastian faith that non-humans are further away from the Maker.

 

 

Question: Are you sure we shouldn't hold out for Arlathan if we want a purely elven nation? I think the elves could settle the Dales at least temporarily without having to expel the humans.

 

 

That's a fair question. With the rumors of an elven rebellion in the Dales being mentioned (as well as some speculation about a possible elven uprising in the next Dragon Age novel - a story that seems to take place primarily in Orlais), I think a coup against the Orlesian occupation of the Dales might be the most promising opportunity for the elves to claim their own homeland. If the opportunity presents itself, I'd like to take advantage of it.

[Xilizhra]

That's a fair question. With the rumors of an elven rebellion in the Dales being mentioned (as well as some speculation about a possible elven uprising in the next Dragon Age novel - a story that seems to take place primarily in Orlais), I think a coup against the Orlesian occupation of the Dales might be the most promising opportunity for the elves to claim their own homeland. If the opportunity presents itself, I'd like to take advantage of it.

Fine, but we don't want to damage our reputation further by doing what we complained about Orlais doing way back when.

[LobselVith8]

Fine, but we don't want to damage our reputation further by doing what we complained about Orlais doing way back when.

 

I'm not certain that would be much of an issue. Most of the humans seem to be running away from the Dales as it is (Asunder), and I'm highly doubtful that many of the xenophobic humans would want to stay in an independent Dales, with elves no longer being relegated to servitude (that can even be condemned by an elven Warden as little more than slavery).

[Xilizhra]

I'm not certain that would be much of an issue. Most of the humans seem to be running away from the Dales as it is (Asunder), and I'm highly doubtful that many of the xenophobic humans would want to stay in an independent Dales, with elves no longer being relegated to servitude (that can even be condemned by an elven Warden as little more than slavery).

Then I suppose all we can do is hope it works out.

[The Elder King]

Then I suppose all we can do is hope it works out.

I'd say it depends on the approach the elves talk on diplomacy with other countries. For an elven state to survive elves and humans need to learn to coexist.
Humans have to do their part too, but the problem is that if things don't work out, the elves are the ones who'd be screwed in case of a war. They are have reasons to try to establish peaceful relationships with the rest of Thedas.

[LobselVith8]

I'd say it depends on the approach the elves talk on diplomacy with other countries. For an elven state to survive elves and humans need to learn to coexist.
Humans have to do their part too, but the problem is that if things don't work out, the elves are the ones who'd be screwed in case of a war. They are have reasons to try to establish peaceful relationships with the rest of Thedas.

 

I think nearby Ferelden would be the most promising for an alliance, since Queen Anora and King Alistair are willing to grant the Hinterlands to the People, in a gesture to atone for what was done to the Elvhen centuries ago. Both of them are progressive leaders. If the Dales ends up taking control of the surface territory where the surface entrance to Orzammar is (the sole source of all surface lyrium), it would put them in an enviable position in establishing ties with groups who require lyrium, like the mage rebels.

[The Elder King]

I think nearby Ferelden would be the most promising for an alliance, since Queen Anora and King Alistair are willing to grant the Hinterlands to the People, in a gesture to atone for what was done to the Elvhen centuries ago. Both of them are progressive leaders. If the Dales ends up taking control of the surface territory where the surface entrance to Orzammar is (the sole source of all surface lyrium), it would put them in an enviable position in establishing ties with groups who require lyrium, like the mage rebels.

Ferelden would be a nice start, though I don't think it'll be enough.
As for the lyrium trade, I prefer to wait and see want changed after the recent events. The Chantry might still retain control of the lyrium trade, and in this case the elves might want to avoid conflicts.
Plus, isn't the area near Orzammar' entrance Ferelden's territory?

[LobselVith8]

Ferelden would be a nice start, though I don't think it'll be enough.
As for the lyrium trade, I prefer to wait and see want changed after the recent events. The Chantry might still retain control of the lyrium trade, and in this case the elves might want to avoid conflicts.
Plus, isn't the area near Orzammar' entrance Ferelden's territory?

 

The entrance to Orzammar seems to be in the Frostback Mountains, which can likely be accessed from Ferelden or Orlais.

[Master Warder Z_]

An alliance between the mages who are fighting for their autonomy from Lambert's forces, and the Elvhen who want to establish a nation where they can be their own masters, instead of the limitations of being a servant or a slave in the human kingdoms. The Mage-Templar War is erupting all across Thedas, and the mages could use all the allies they can get. An autonomous elven state of the Dales would also be in the vicinity of the entrance to Orzammar, which is the source for the lyrium that both templars and mages use.

 

That's something can never be allowed to occur.

 

Unregulated mages, those backwoods hicks actually having a place of origin to spew their hatred doctrine from? It's an abomination to the world.

 

Besides elven rebellion or no from what has been indicated as of yet those elves fight or at least did fight for Gaspard, what is to stop him from turning a united Orlais against those hillbillies the moment they stop being useful like he should? Wanting crown owed land, with vital connections to trade routes which could impede Orlaisian traffic? 

 

The man has to much military experience and too much ambition not to mention it seems like he actually common sense enough to allow anything near letting elves take a position not to mention declaring a stance in the Mage/Templar conflict which he would if he allowed that settlement within Orlais. I actually see both victors of the war in Orlais turning against both factions the moment their own quarrel is done. Anything else weakens their country to an extent that couldn't be allowed.

 

Orlais has too many enemies in peace time to appear weak, doing so after a civil war is just asking for invasion in their case.

 

Still its nice that even Humanity's distant cousins have their day dreams Mages and Elves both i mean.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Just having vaguely common enemies doesn't make Rebel Mages and Rebel Elves natural allies. They have different agendas and wouldn't want to draw the attention of any more enemies.

 

Heck even within both of those factions there would likely be enough divisions to prevent them from forming a single cohesive unit with a single clear goal.

[LobselVith8]

That's something can never be allowed to occur.

 

Unregulated mages, those backwoods hicks actually having a place of origin to spew their hatred doctrine from? It's an abomination to the world.

 

Besides elven rebellion or no from what has been indicated as of yet those elves fight or at least did fight for Gaspard, what is to stop him from turning a united Orlais against those hillbillies the moment they stop being useful like he should? Wanting crown owed land, with vital connections to trade routes which could impede Orlaisian traffic? 

 

The man has to much military experience and too much ambition not to mention it seems like he actually common sense enough to allow anything near letting elves take a position not to mention declaring a stance in the Mage/Templar conflict which he would if he allowed that settlement within Orlais. I actually see both victors of the war in Orlais turning against both factions the moment their own quarrel is done. Anything else weakens their country to an extent that couldn't be allowed.

 

Orlais has too many enemies in peace time to appear weak, doing so after a civil war is just asking for invasion in their case.

 

Still its nice that even Humanity's distant cousins have their day dreams Mages and Elves both i mean.

 

I don't see much appeal in the elves serving either Celene or Gaspard; I prefer following the New Vegas style route of being your own master.

 

With the Orlesian civil war and the Mage-Templar War taking place, I don't see Gaspard being in a position to do much about a (currently hypothetical) elven uprising in the Dales. And if the civil war during the Fifth Blight taught us anything, it's that a civil war can rage on during a crisis, even when the entire nation is faced with the threat of utter annihilation.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Even if that's true, what about after the Orlesian Civil War? Neither that war nor the Veil Tears are going to last forever. Any hypothetical Elven nation needs to be able to survive in the long term. And they won't be able to do that if they antagonize all their more powerful neighbors by carving up pieces of Orlais for themselves. Just because elves might want to be their own masters doesn't mean they can. Alone, they would be by far the weakest faction in the Orlesian Civil War.

[Rotward]

It could be interesting if the keeper became an abomination, wiped out the clan, but fell to their first (the pc). I don't know how else you would get a first or keeper away from their clan, other than a dead clan or being cast out. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Even if that's true, what about after the Orlesian Civil War? Neither that war nor the Veil Tears are going to last forever. Any hypothetical Elven nation needs to be able to survive in the long term. And they won't be able to do that if they antagonize all their more powerful neighbors by carving up pieces of Orlais for themselves. Just because elves might want to be their own masters doesn't mean they can. Alone, they would be by far the weakest faction in the Orlesian Civil War.

 

Exactly my point.

 

Unless if The current Empress or future Emperor likely could be convinced of the boon of having the Dales reestablished on top of allowing former circle renegades to settle there; It would need to be a boon to Orlais over all.

 

And i don't see any price they could pay that would be near enough for the trouble it would be worth.

 

Orlais is the most powerful nation in the entirety of Thedas for a reason after all; It knows how to deal with attempts at invasion.

[LobselVith8]

Just having vaguely common enemies doesn't make Rebel Mages and Rebel Elves natural allies. They have different agendas and wouldn't want to draw the attention of any more enemies.

 

Heck even within both of those factions there would likely be enough divisions to prevent them from forming a single cohesive unit with a single clear goal.

 

I don't think they would be automatic allies, but I think an alliance could be forged between the two. Given Ariane's inferred comment about the Circle playing a role in the fall of the Dales, I doubt the Dalish want to see the Chantry controlled Circles return if there's an option to turn the autonomous Circle mages into allies.

 

Even if that's true, what about after the Orlesian Civil War? Neither that war nor the Veil Tears are going to last forever. Any hypothetical Elven nation needs to be able to survive in the long term. And they won't be able to do that if they antagonize all their more powerful neighbors by carving up pieces of Orlais for themselves. Just because elves might want to be their own masters doesn't mean they can. Alone, they would be by far the weakest faction in the Orlesian Civil War.

 

Which is where the allies would come into play, which I think could include the Inquisition itself - a growing power that is expanding it's influence across Thedas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think your overestimating the power of the Inquisition if you expect them to become so powerful they can completely ignore the strongest nations of the rest of the world, especially in the years, decades and centuries after it's whole reason for existing has been resolved.

 

The old Dales lasted nearly 300 years. You think the Inquisition is going to be able to protect and unpopular minority surrounded on all sides by hostile humans for even half that long? Even there was an elven Inquisitor, he or she won't be around forever.

 

Elves can never be free unless they reach some kind of compromise with humanity's powers that be.

[LobselVith8]

I think your overestimating the power of the Inquisition if you expect them to become so powerful they can completely ignore the strongest nations of the rest of the world, especially in the years, decades and centuries after it's whole reason for existing has been resolved.

 

The old Dales lasted nearly 300 years. You think the Inquisition is going to be able to protect and unpopular minority surrounded on all sides by hostile humans for even half that long? Even there was an elven Inquisitor, he or she won't be around forever.

 

Elves can never be free unless they reach some kind of compromise with humanity's powers that be.

 

Except other allies have been discussed so far, like Ferelden, and the rebel mages who are fighting to maintain their autonomy from the Chantry and the templars, so I'm not suggesting that the Inquisition alone can fend off whatever side wins the civil war in Orlais. No need to capitulate to the Orlesian throne.

 

I'm also not certain why an independent Dales would be "surrounded on all sides" by hostile humans. I doubt that Nevarra is going to be upset if Orlais has been severely weakened. Between the Mage-Templar conflict and the veil tears, I think that the other human kingdoms have enough to contend with. I think there's enough time for an independent Dales to strengthen itself, and establish alliances with key players.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Whether Nevarra cares about Orlais being weakened or not doesn't impact whether they would welcome and elven state as well, but in either case Nevarra does not even have a border with the Dales anyway. and given what happened with the Dalish boon in Ferelden, they don't seem like they would be fans of a Dalish state either.

 

Rebel Mages are mostly humans. Many of them are Andrastian. That means an Elf nation would not see them as preferred allies and vice versa. And if the rebel mages are fighting a desperate war against templar, why would they join forces with the weakest, AND most foreign faction in the Orlesian Civil War? If Celene of Gaspard are desperate enough for their help they can offer the mages much more than a faction of ragtag elves can.

 

Even if a new Dales can strengthen itself, so can the remnants of the Orlesian Empire. Even back in their height, the Dales ultimately could not stand against the might of Orlais alone back in the Glory Age. Elves are and always have been vastly outnumbered by humanity, whatever strength they can muster, human nations can muster more.

[Xilizhra]

Besides elven rebellion or no from what has been indicated as of yet those elves fight or at least did fight for Gaspard, what is to stop him from turning a united Orlais against those hillbillies the moment they stop being useful like he should? Wanting crown owed land, with vital connections to trade routes which could impede Orlaisian traffic?

Then obviously we kill Gaspard first.

 

The old Dales lasted nearly 300 years. You think the Inquisition is going to be able to protect and unpopular minority surrounded on all sides by hostile humans for even half that long? Even there was an elven Inquisitor, he or she won't be around forever.

Zathrian was, until his secret was discovered.

 

Even if a new Dales can strengthen itself, so can the remnants of the Orlesian Empire. Even back in their height, the Dales ultimately could not stand against the might of Orlais alone back in the Glory Age. Elves are and always have been vastly outnumbered by humanity, whatever strength they can muster, human nations can muster more.

Then either we tie their fortunes to the Dales itself somehow, or see to it that the Empire is too shattered to ever repair itself.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm quite sure you aren't going to be able to use a blood magic curse to become an immortal elven inquisitor or cleanse the entire population of Orlais over the course of the game.

[Xilizhra]

I'm quite sure you aren't going to be able to use a blood magic curse to become an immortal elven inquisitor or cleanse the entire population of Orlais over the course of the game.

You don't have to slaughter a whole country's population to destroy it politically, especially if it's so tied to feudal powder as Orlais. The former may sadly be true, but we can always hope.

[Lorien19]

Well,It's not really about Orlais any more,the reason why the elves can't found their own independent nation is due to their population being significantly outnumbered by the humans,whether Orlesian,Fereldan,Tevinter etc...We saw how this evolves in origins where the Dalish despite being given lands by the king/queen (if the GW is dalish), and actively contributing in the war against the blight,they are still not welcome, as political tensions arise concerning their permanent inhabitance of the lands given to them by the crown.
So chances are that even if they were finally allowed to found their own nation,they would still be attacked by humans at some point for whatever reason,especially if they reattempt to isolate themselves from them.I don't know how the writers are planning to expand on the elves(dalish or city) in their games,whether they finally overcome the obstacles and be free or continue to live the same way they do atm,but alliances between elves and humans tend to end badly.

[The Elder King]

 

Then either we tie their fortunes to the Dales itself somehow, or see to it that the Empire is too shattered to ever repair itself.

I doubt Orlais will be THAT weakened, or that we'll have the option to weaken it that much.

[Xilizhra]

I doubt Orlais will be THAT weakened, or that we'll have the option to weaken it that much.

Why's that?

[The Elder King]

Why's that?

The Save imports leads to some restrictions in the narrative. And I don't see Bioware destroying Orlais completely, expecially since it seems there's a civil war plot where we'll likely be able to define the new ruler.