39 réponses à ce sujet

[Brannee]

So, in one of my college classes I was given the discussion of "Debating on weither Humans should test on other Humans." I am going to be writing about why should humans experiement on other humans. I am only asking and starting a new topic because it relates to how you handled the situation on the Citadel with Samesh Bhatia's wife's body. Did you allow the Science group to continue experiments on her body for human research? Or did you not allow the research? Why not? I'm not trying to spoil the game for anyone or give spoilers, but I thought it would lead to a great discussion out of the game.

I decided to allow the experiments and would allow them (scientists) in real life to experiment on a dead person's body. Why? We can learn from the body. I don't think people would allow experiments willingly while alive. A person can give much knowledge from dying, passing, or even die to murder. Mrs. Bhatia dedicated her live to serving for people during life. I'm sure she would want to help even more people dead. As a species always learning, why would we not allow this? We can learn to create antibodies, vaccinations, and even cures. Also, ways to adapt or even grow in the direction of nature.

I'm sure everyone has their opinion why we should allow or not allow human experimenting. Discuss why?

[Aradace]

Im all for humans experimenting on humans as long as 2 criteria are met:



A.) Said subjects go voluntarily



B.) Said subjects are paid because they are afterall donating themselves to science lol.

[Ettecoud]

Stab some dead chick with a scalpel which may (or may not) cause some breakthrough in science...sure stab away....she's dead I cant really see her complaining (On living people thats when the whole "morality" come in) The only one who was really worried about that was her husband seemed kinda like a selfish ****...so yeah...imo let people poke other people with science tools if they want.

[Brannee]

Ettecoud wrote...

 The only one who was really worried about that was her husband seemed kinda like a selfish ****.

Not true. Ashley served with her in her unit. Ashley & Mrs. Bhatia had a good Commander/Soldier relationship.

Modifié par Brannee, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:31 .

[Willowhugger]

I think it's profoundly disrespectful to the right of the man to bury his wife. The Alliance overstepped its authority by a large margin.

[dtye]

The way I looked at it when dealing with Samesh was "Which way will save the most lives?" Obviously, the research was working towards saving lives, and simply letting Samesh have her back could potentially kill thousands. So, prevent one man from burying his wife, or force thousands of men to bury theirs? The answer was obvious to me.

[Ettecoud]

Brannee wrote...

Ettecoud wrote...

 The only one who was really worried about that was her husband seemed kinda like a selfish ****.

Not true. Ashley served with her in her unit. Ashley & Mrs. Bhatia had a good Commander/Soldier relationship.

Yeah....personally I didn't like Ashley.......so yeah...she's dead....so what she says don't matter no more 

[Brannee]

Willowhugger wrote...

I think it's profoundly disrespectful to the right of the man to bury his wife. The Alliance overstepped its authority by a large margin.

How so? She was apart of the Military. Maybe in her contract it was stated they have the right to the body until they are done with it? Regardless. Do you condone their reason, though? To further human development by experimenting & researching her body?

[Aradace]

Willowhugger wrote...

I think it's profoundly disrespectful to the right of the man to bury his wife. The Alliance overstepped its authority by a large margin.

So you would risk even more deaths by being ill prepared for these attacks, all for the sake of a body?  My my, you ARE selfish arent you?

Modifié par Aradace, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:41 .

[RyuKazuha]

There's quite a difference between investigating a dead body and experimenting on a living human. It's actually the gap between the System Alliance and Cerberus.

[Naughty Bear]

Ettecoud wrote...

Stab some dead chick with a scalpel which may (or may not) cause some breakthrough in science...sure stab away....she's dead I cant really see her complaining (On living people thats when the whole "morality" come in) The only one who was really worried about that was her husband seemed kinda like a selfish ****...so yeah...imo let people poke other people with science tools if they want.

I personally believe morality gets in the way of everything. See what the ****'s did when they tortured Jews for science Yeah sure it was terrible and it was not nice.

I am in no way supporting the ****'s on what they did to the Jews.

You could say i am like Mordin in a certain way. Stabbing that certain living chick with a scalpal might save 100's then yeah i would do it, i would not feel remorse because i know i have helped others.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:43 .

[Willowhugger]

dtye wrote...

The way I looked at it when dealing with Samesh was "Which way will save the most lives?" Obviously, the research was working towards saving lives, and simply letting Samesh have her back could potentially kill thousands. So, prevent one man from burying his wife, or force thousands of men to bury theirs? The answer was obvious to me.

My Shepard was fully willing to KILL the people who were holding her body.  The Alliance's policy of human experimentation pretty much all leads back to Cerberus.  Experimenting with things like their bodies (which might include Husk technology) seems pretty damn dangerous to me.

Sometimes, you do the right thing even if it doesn't seem to be the Utiliatarian one.

They're just lucky they caved.  Mercy is not the quality of my Shepard.

[Yootje]

I am opposed to using just anyone's body. Though I would donate my body to science if they want it (but apparently, in my country they don't want bodies anymore), I think this is a matter of personal choice. Say if you are religious and you believe you need your body buried exactly as it was when you died, or within 24 hours or something like that: it would be wrong to force someone like that to give up their body after death anyway. Imagine the agony you would spend your life in, knowing the government (I'm assuming it would be the government) would deny you your chance of eternal life. Now, I'm not religious and I think that when you die, your body is just a bunch of molecules with nothing special about it - but still. And if a religious person can withhold consent, so should anyone making the decision based on non-religious reasons.
Basically: the lesser of two evils is still evil.
I could probably be a lot more eloquent, but bleh, this'll do

Also, forget the Jews: look up what the Japanese did in WWII in some of their camps.

Aaand I just keep coming up with more stuff. 'Slippery slope': if the government owns your body after death, that leads to some pretty icky questions about identity and the right to do what you want with your own body in life.

Modifié par Yootje, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:46 .

[Willowhugger]

So you would risk even more deaths by being ill prepared for these attacks, all for the sake of a body?  My my, you ARE selfish arent you?

Damn straight.  The government that doesn't have any respect for its people is the government that needs to be put down.  The Citadel Council and the Alliance probably don't go after colonies endangered by the Collectors because they consider a war with them to be too "risky."

The Alliance's easy high dive jump into fascism is disgusting.

It starts small but you can't let it grow.

[Brannee]

RyuKazuha wrote...

There's quite a difference between investigating a dead body and experimenting on a living human. It's actually the gap between the System Alliance and Cerberus.

You are correct, however. Mrs. Bhatia's body was for both. That is the link between the two. They are investigating the attacks behind Eden Prime and also experimenting on her body to save thousands of more lives.

[Khayness]

Depends on the point of view.
Would you go willingly if you know that part of your brain creates an antidote for all of the known terminal illness out there, but you are needed to be dissected in order to mass produce it and save millions?
I bet the scientists will tear you apart without letting the world know about you.
Logic doesn't care. 1<x+1

Check out this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0572236/

Modifié par Khayness, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:50 .

[Willowhugger]

You are correct, however. Mrs. Bhatia's body was for both. That is the link between the two. They are investigating the attacks behind Eden Prime and also experimenting on her body to save thousands of more lives.

Or it could end up doing nothing.  The man didn't even know what they were doing with her body, they didn't bother to explain.  They just kept it for their own purposes.

[Aradace]

Willowhugger wrote...

dtye wrote...

The way I looked at it when dealing with Samesh was "Which way will save the most lives?" Obviously, the research was working towards saving lives, and simply letting Samesh have her back could potentially kill thousands. So, prevent one man from burying his wife, or force thousands of men to bury theirs? The answer was obvious to me.

My Shepard was fully willing to KILL the people who were holding her body.  The Alliance's policy of human experimentation pretty much all leads back to Cerberus.  Experimenting with things like their bodies (which might include Husk technology) seems pretty damn dangerous to me.

Sometimes, you do the right thing even if it doesn't seem to be the Utiliatarian one.

They're just lucky they caved.  Mercy is not the quality of my Shepard.

arent you going to fell like an ass when it comes back in this game that shield tech etc. doesnt hold up as well against geth attacks as it might have it you let them keep the body and advance technology?  Meaning you just sacraficed 100s if not 1000s of lives simply based on one man's selfishness to bury his wife's body instead of furthering the protection of the ones out there protecting the bastards like Samesh Bhatia lol. 

/rant off.  Sorry, got a little worked upon that one

[anon_04111]

I think it should all depend on the person about to be chopped up. If they're all good and volunteer for it, go hog wild, if they decline, respect those wishes. For example, when I die, I want all of my organs donated. Seriously take it all, I won't need it where I'm going.



...I think I'm gonna like it in this thread :]

[Ilawene]

I got the body back for her husband. Its his right to bury his wife, and its not like Eden Prime was short of corpses to experiment on.

[Ettecoud]

Ilawene wrote...

I got the body back for her husband. Its his right to bury his wife, and its not like Eden Prime was short of corpses to experiment on.

Remember how the Geth were turning people into husks? I can assume they did that to a large amount of people, meaning that a regular dead human body might have been hard to find 

[Willowhugger]

arent you going to fell like an ass when it comes back in this game that shield tech etc. doesnt hold up as well against geth attacks as it might have it you let them keep the body and advance technology?  Meaning you just sacraficed 100s if not 1000s of lives simply based on one man's selfishness to bury his wife's body instead of furthering the protection of the ones out there protecting the bastards like Samesh Bhatia lol. 

/rant off.  Sorry, got a little worked upon that one

Honestly, I'd probably still do it.  The simple fact is that the Alliance never bothered to explain the issue to the man. Furthermore, they pretty much are stepping over the rights of individuals.  Sometimes, you make hard choices even if they bite you back in the ass.  It's why I'd spare the Rachni Queen, even if I knew in ME2 that she'd return asn evil monster (which we don't know).

If we forget our humanity, we lose something more precious than our lives.

[Yootje]

Aradace wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

dtye wrote...

The way I looked at it when dealing with Samesh was "Which way will save the most lives?" Obviously, the research was working towards saving lives, and simply letting Samesh have her back could potentially kill thousands. So, prevent one man from burying his wife, or force thousands of men to bury theirs? The answer was obvious to me.

My Shepard was fully willing to KILL the people who were holding her body.  The Alliance's policy of human experimentation pretty much all leads back to Cerberus.  Experimenting with things like their bodies (which might include Husk technology) seems pretty damn dangerous to me.

Sometimes, you do the right thing even if it doesn't seem to be the Utiliatarian one.

They're just lucky they caved.  Mercy is not the quality of my Shepard.

arent you going to fell like an ass when it comes back in this game that shield tech etc. doesnt hold up as well against geth attacks as it might have it you let them keep the body and advance technology?  Meaning you just sacraficed 100s if not 1000s of lives simply based on one man's selfishness to bury his wife's body instead of furthering the protection of the ones out there protecting the bastards like Samesh Bhatia lol. 

/rant off.  Sorry, got a little worked upon that one

I actually agree with Willowhugger. Certain ideals, certain ethical choices must hold, even in the face of risk, in the face of danger. If you can alter then whenever you will, they are not ideals, but whims. For some people, the sanctity of an individuals right to their own body is so great that it is one of these ideals. It must be protected, at least in a case where the benefits of violating it are unclear. If it had been the choice 'let us keep the body or we know absolutely certain that hundred people will die and we won't be able to do a thing about it' it would have been another matter. Absolute certain death vs. we hope that this may lead to something if we're lucky.

EDIT: Gah, this topic moves too fast for me!

Modifié par Yootje, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:52 .

[wikkedjoker]

The Holocaust is a good example.



It was horrible, no one will say it wasn’t, but there was potential good that could have come from it. There was experiments conducted on human’s, that traditionally would have never been allowed, and a lot of medical information was gathered. However the biggest atrocity, is not that these experiments happened, but that the medical information was thrown out because of how it was gained.



Testing on humans is a gray area, if you test on 100 people and 90 of them die. What to we learn? More than we would have if none of them died. But no one wants to see people get hurt, its this mentality of morally correct actions, that I think have set us back medically. That’s not to say I think people should just be kidnapped and experimented on, no that’s not what I’m saying at all. However in order to grow in knowledge, and get to a point that this sort of testing is no longer needed, things that may seen horrible need to happen. Sort like kill one person to save 100.



Again I’m not saying that a doctor should out and out murder someone for a test, but if a person is willing, and that test is conducted and the subject dies, than we should used that knowledge.



Much like in ME 1, the guy might not have liked what was happening to his wife, but finding out what killed her, could have helped 100’s, not just medically, but in the creation of better armor and such.



My point ism horrible things happen, it’s a fact of life, everyone is as insignificant as the next, but to the race as a whole, than if a few people die to advance knowledge, that will better mankind than its acceptable.



However, I do believe that anyone that is willing to be experimented on, be informed of the facts, however if there already dead, than the family should understand. This is often not the case however. But I believe that the choice to push there wants aside for the betterment of the race is always the right one. The greater good.