35 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

What would it need to be dark fantasy in your eyes?

 

 

[Steelcan]

Depeneds on what you mean by "dark"

 

You could go the Dark Souls route and make the game hard and bleak and unforgiving, not just the gameplay, the world itself.

 

The Dragonborn DLC for Skyrim also kind of qualifies IMO.

 

Or they could just go for gore and sex and call it mature

[Fetunche]

Dark fantasy not grimdark Qistina, I'm not a fan of grimdark , bleakness for bleakness sake I prefer light and shade, humour and drama not all dark.

[Elissiaro]

Well the world at least is dark fantasy... With the slave empire, the blood magic, the demons escaping the fade all the time, the imprisoned/enslaved mages, the druggie religious army, the elven ghettos... The old gods that could be dug up at any moment and release what is basically the zombie apocalypse if zombies could breed and were alive.

 

And now there are even more stuff coming out of the fade?

 

The feel of the games though... It's not all that dark imo... It's not depressing enough.

[silentstephi]

I find that the world being a dark place is enough to qualify.  Granted, if you shoe horn slap stick or too much silly in the characters or immediate plots that your PC is involved in, then it's... just confusing.  But when events are weighted more towards the negative side and the PC has to push through that to find something normal or that ray of hope, then that's dark.  

 

It doesn't always have to be that there's no hope, everything sucks, and then you die.  Because seriously, who wants to constantly wade through that, and in the end feel like they've accomplished nothing?  That's not fun.  Or at least if it is fun, maybe the first few times.  After years of playing in White Wolf's World of Darkness, grim dark can wear you out real quick if you don't get something bright at the end of it.

[Zack_Nero]

Well I guess it defines as what dark is and how far it is willing to go. Dragon Age already has some dark tones to it, but it is still pleasant enough to be around. I wouldn't mind a darker tone but I don't want it to be a complete nightmare to live in.

[Ihatebadgames]

If you want to really live there, it's not dark enough.

There is a feeling that "The Witcher" has that "Dragon Age" is missing and it's not sex and eye spoons. Dragon Age has a lighter atmosphere.

[Vilegrim]

It's not Witcher or Malazan Book of the Fallen dark, but it's not exactly child friendly either.

 

Malazan series especially is far darker, while not actually being any gorier or havign alot more swearing, just the knowledge that the heroism of the individual doesn't matter all that much...or if it does the price will be utterly horrifying.  In a universe where undead neanderthals are in a half a million year long genocidal war with demi-god level beings, just on the chance that one of those beings becomes a world ending tyrant (and their have been a few who have tried)....Or the elder gods require blood to live and gain power, but are actually some of the nicest, most caring beings in the setting, when that guy down the street could be a god (oh and the irony? The two nicest 'younger' gods in the setting are the god of death and the patron of assassins)  well, when you are looking at the story of a few thousand soldiers just trying to stay alive in that world like that is going to be bleak.  Amazing, well constructed, with some very funny, sometimes outright comic characters, but it always remembers that the war among the gods is making the world a hell.

[Roninbarista]

It would show some exploration, attractiveness/allure to the dark side of magic, rituals, morals, etc..

[Swagger7]

Dragon Age is far from the darkest fantay, but I'd say it qualifies as dark.

[Taleroth]

Horror to be a dominant theme. Or the dominant. It'd help if the main problems were caused by otherworldly body horrors and not just extremist jerks.

[bEVEsthda]

Why does it matter if it is considered 'Dark Fantasy' or not?

I'm probably not interested in the label. What's important to me is that the game conveys an atmosphere of taking itself seriously. Like Skyrim, like DA:O, and in particular The Witcher 2. If it succeeds with that, then the story can be as bright as anything.

I want the medieval mood and atmosphere.

[Rawgrim]

I`d say High Fantasy with dark undertones.

[Maclimes]

Let's not get to hung up on the various weird adjectives that you can place before "fantasy". Dark fantasy, Mature Fantasy, High Fantasy, Low Fantasy, etc ...

 

Those just needlessly confuse people. Since everyone is going to have a different idea of what makes something "dark" and "mature", there's really no point in trying to market it in such a way. Inevitably, people will just end up disappointed.

[shodiswe]

Death, demons, demons posessign people, people rising dead people, people killing people and sewing them together then resurecting them....

 

 

Call it whatever you like..

[Mihura]

Hum, I think DA:I shouldn't be a dark fantasy at all, The Witcher has already that side of things cover. They just need to stick with the high fantasy with mature themes and deep. Also please no colorless game environment and design, mature theme do not need to be done with tones of grey, brown and black.

[SwobyJ]

It tries to be as much as possible: High, Low, Dark, Light Fantasy.

 

The world is kinda Dark, but the approach towards it is more Light.

The plot setup is kinda High, but approach towards it is more Low.

 

A lil' Tolkien, a little Ice&Fire, a little everything, in order to be as approachable as possible.

 

Mass Effect tries the same thing but with more sci-fi elements, of course. Some parts of it will seem more hard sci-fi, but then they'll get more into spacemagicky stuff (yes even in ME1). Again, to be as approachable as possible, even though that runs the risk of alienating audiences if scenes/plotpoints/etc get too much of one end.

 

For example, you don't see TRULY dark dark fantasy stuff in Dragon Age. You see a few bits that touch on that, but then you defeat the monster usually and move on, or whatever . You don't delve into the more disgusting and scary parts more than you have to.

[CybAnt1]

People are over-reading what Dark Fantasy means.

 

Dark Fantasy means fantasy plus horror elements. 

 

Period. End of report.

 

Dragon Age has them. Old gods (practically ripped out of the Cthulhu mythos), Broodmothers, Abombinations, etc. I'd say it fits the bill.

 

Dark fantasy does NOT mean an "overall" dark world, a doomed protagonist, lack of sunlit areas, lack of happy endings, so-called "mature" sex scenes, or anything else that people SEEM to think it does. 

[Das Tentakel]

People are over-reading what Dark Fantasy means.
 
Dark Fantasy means fantasy plus horror elements. 
 
Period. End of report.
 
Dragon Age has them. Old gods (practically ripped out of the Cthulhu mythos), Broodmothers, Abombinations, etc. I'd say it fits the bill.
 
Dark fantasy does NOT mean an "overall" dark world, a doomed protagonist, lack of sunlit areas, lack of happy endings, so-called "mature" sex scenes, or anything else that people SEEM to think it does.

Well, that's what you get when people have no awareness of the history of the fantasy and horror genres  .
 
There is no 'fixed' definition for 'dark fantasy', but one of the main candidates, dark fantasy as defined by Karl Edward Wagner (one of two authors who may have originated the term), is precisely what you deny it is.
 

'"Who won the war, Kane?"
"I did."
"You didn't win a thing, Kane. You only survived."
"It means the same thing."


Karl Edward Wagner, Lynortis Reprise

By now 'dark fantasy' can mean any mix of bleakness, supernatural horror and more traditional fantasy / sword & sorcery elements like, erm, carniverous pixies. Put in a bit of horror or a bad ending and voilá, 'dark fantasy'.
 


(clicky link)

Man, that's dark. And bleak .
 
Meaning: DA:I is probably dark fantasy, when you use a broad definition. Whether its 'dark' parts will be convincing enough to a majority of the players, that's going to be the real question.

[CybAnt1]

OK. Well, there are very few places where the term is defined online. I know people don't like Wikipedia because of its "variability" (i.e. anyone can edit.) TV-Tropes is also usually not considered authoritative. They don't seem "serious" enough.

 

So how about goodreads?

 

http://www.goodreads...es/dark-fantasy

 

At its most basic, dark fantasy is a term used to describe a fantasy story with a pronounced horror element. A stricter definition is difficult to pin down, as authors, publishers, and readers have used "dark fantasy" in various contexts throughout the years. Dark fantasy is often used as a synonym for supernatural horror. Some authors and critics also apply the term to high fantasy stories that feature anti-heroic or morally ambiguous protagonists. Fantasy works by writers typically associated with the horror genre are sometimes described as "dark fantasy." Conversely, the term is also used to describe "darker" works by authors best-known for other styles of fantasy.

 

[end]

 

​I don't see what's wrong with its most basic meaning, which does apply to Dragon Age. You may feel a more "stricter" definition is needed, but goodreads doesn't seem to think an exact one stricter than that can be pinned down.

[Das Tentakel]

OK. Well, there are very few places where the term is defined online. I know people don't like Wikipedia because of its "variability" (i.e. anyone can edit.) TV-Tropes is also usually not considered authoritative. They don't seem "serious" enough.
 
So how about goodreads?
 
http://www.goodreads...es/dark-fantasy
 
At its most basic, dark fantasy is a term used to describe a fantasy story with a pronounced horror element. A stricter definition is difficult to pin down, as authors, publishers, and readers have used "dark fantasy" in various contexts throughout the years. Dark fantasy is often used as a synonym for supernatural horror. Some authors and critics also apply the term to high fantasy stories that feature anti-heroic or morally ambiguous protagonists. Fantasy works by writers typically associated with the horror genre are sometimes described as "dark fantasy." Conversely, the term is also used to describe "darker" works by authors best-known for other styles of fantasy.
 
[end]
 
​I don't see what's wrong with its most basic meaning, which does apply to Dragon Age. You may feel a more "stricter" definition is needed, but goodreads doesn't seem to think an exact one stricter than that can be pinned down.

 
The goodreads definition is one of several unofficial definitions (there is no official one) and probably (partly) based on that found in John Clute and John Grant's 'Encyclopedia of Fantasy' (1997). Honestly, the goodreads definition is more of a description of some uses of the term than a real 'definition'. At least Clute and Grant were more strict, but they had to because they categorized fantasy for purposes of cataloguing and analysis:
 

' In this encyclopedia we define a DF as a tale which incorporates a sense of Horror, but which is clearly Fantasy rather than Supernatural Fiction. Thus DF does not normally embrace tales of Vampires, Werewolves, Satanism, Ghosts or the occult, almost all of which are supernatural fictions (although such tales may contain DF elements, while some DFs contain vampires, ghosts, etc. – an example is Stephen Marley's Mortal Mask [1991]). The term can sensibly be used also to describe tales in which the Eucatastrophe normal to most fantasy is reversed – tales in which the Dark Lord is victorious, tales in which the Land, normally an object of desire, and an arena for the working out of a desired Story, is itself an object of horror (Stephen Donaldson's Covenant sequence is the prime and definitive example). Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique stories describe a land, Zothique, of this sort, though it can also be understood, in minimally rationalized terms, as a Dying Earth. And DF can be used to describe certain Crosshatches in which the intersections between this world and an upwelling Otherworld are at least partly described in images and themes out of the worlds of Horror; an example is Sean Stewart's Resurrection Man (1995), a tale full of Revenants, Spiders, open graves, dissections and Doubles.'

'Sense of horror' is key in Clute's definition, as it's a (dominant or at least prominent)feeling, not the presence of supernatural monstrosities etc. by itself. In the Wagnerian style of 'dark fantasy' the horror lies in what men do (and don't do), and not so much in supernatural threats.

While I don't regard it as definitive, Clute's definition does help in separating fantasy where a 'sense of horror' is not or only occasionally present, and fantasy where it is a key component of the story / setting. DA:O for instance has a bit of supernatural horror in it, but it doesn't set the tone. It's more like LotR lite with a bit of gore added. DA2 might actually be considered 'darker' because Hawke turns out to be unable to stop disaster from happening. Unfortunately, any 'sense of horror' here was undermined by sucky execution.

Again, if you use a very broad definition ('it has demons, dude!') DA:I will be dark fantasy, but I am going to bet 'sense of horror' will not be the dominant or even a prominent tone. Doing that well requires considerable skill, and I don't think BioWare is going to take any risks in this respect. It's probably going to be hi-octane action with 'chain attacks' and occasionally a creepy moment.

[Taleroth]

Because the horror element in Dragon Age isn't particularly pronounced. I'd give it to you if the Dwarf section of DAO wasn't just a small part of the overall.

 

Almost all fantasy has some horrific elements. From Shelob to mind flayers. You'd have to go well above and beyond that. Because if all fantasy is dark fantasy, then none of it is.

[Kileyan]

This has been discussed a lot over the years, usually the description of dark fantasy is some variation of all grey areas, no good guys or bad guys, mature themes. A popular theme is that no choice should every be a good choice, no matter what you choose something bad happens as a result, its a harsh world full of hard choices...blah blah.

 

I don't really want to play a game that is contrived in that way, all bleak, grey, dark, dreary and sad. I'd rather it be a more even toned game with a few choices that stick out for the unexpected consequences and dark theme, rather than an entire game filled so full of such encounters and choices that you become numb to it, or even stop caring since every choice is the "wrong" choice.

[Rixatrix]

In my opinion, Dragon Age is heroic fantasy.

 

Also, really loved reading your posts, Das Tentakel. Very informative.

 

That said, I feel like you might be able to play Dragon Age as a quasi dark fantasy -- if you, say, kill the Dalish, annul the Circle, kill Isolde and Connor, side with Branka, have Alistair killed, etc. You are changing the game world by making those choices and arguably taking it in a "dark" direction. Without expert material, I considered dark fantasy to be able about not the mere existence of "evil things," per se, but bleak choices. (Thinking of  books like Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series here.) Making the aforementioned decisions would be close, but not quite there, perhaps.

 

In any case, I don't really care which category Dragon Age falls into -- I have been enjoying it nonetheless. Still fun to discuss, though.

[fchopin]

What the game needs to make it dark is to show what is already in the game but more to true life.

 

Don't make slavery in to a Disney fairy tale but show what real slavery is, same with rape don't make rape in to a nice scene but show the savagery of the rape.

 

In DA2 everything was a joke as all the companions and Hawke acted like monkeys in a comedy show. If you are going to show people dying then show it in some kind of realistic way and not a comedy show. Put the monkeys in a circus and show us the reality.