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[slimgrin]

It deals with some tragic and mature content, but the tropes it uses place it firmly in high fantasy territory. The dark fantasy angle was an ad campaign.

[bEVEsthda]

The meaning of words and terms is ultimately defined by their use. Which, of course, also means that no meaning is static or absolute. This is also a fact. So Goodreads are doing a proper thing.

 

But maybe not best thing. As long as it's still viable, my opinion is that it's a good thing that some people tries to defend a more narrow and specific use of words and terms (terms typically veer away from their original meaning by temporarily becoming more inclusive). So I have no problem with that part. In my judgement, Clute's definition is far more distinct and thus more useful. I appreciate the illumination that you have given this subject. While I previously had no interest in the label 'Dark Fantasy', I at least now know how I will prefer to use it.

[CybAnt1]

I take the Clute definition to still more or less imply that if it involves vampires, werewolves, ghosts, things from beyond, giant tentacled monstrosities, and other things that go bump in the night in the modern or semi-modern world (that would include the 1920s-set fiction of H.P. Lovecraft or mebbe even the 1890s world of Cthulhu-by-gaslight), it's "horror" or "supernatural horror". Stephen King usually writes "horror". Though there is the sort of divergent storytelling he does in The Dark Tower series.  

 

But if it's those same kind of supernatural horror elements in a world that is more based on the medieval period, as fantasy usually is, then it is "dark fantasy". 

 

So, again, it would seem to me though the Clute definition focuses on broody-moody outcomes for protagonists or the bleak nature of the world as occasional elements, the presence of horrific forces and creatures seem to be more subgenre-defining. And of course "preponderance" means they can't just be infrequent and less than noticeable. 

 

I am a big fan of Lovecraft's stories. I used to play Call of Cthulhu. It is an interesting break from fantasy, being someone who fights evil forces as a 1924 antiquarian or PI with a pistol instead of a 1224 knight in armor with a sword. Certainly, a lot of Lovecraft's stories end badly. People are of course typically being slain by the Great Old Ones and their minions. More often, though, they usually simply wind up in an insane asylum, gibbering about the mindless horrors they have seen and experienced. One great mechanic in CoC is encounters with such beings could damage your SANity as well as your hit points/health.  

 

Yet, he also wrote things that might be closer to heroic fantasy, too. One of my favorites is the Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath. Such a beautiful tale. Nyarlathotep is  defeated by someone who dares to dream. 

 

Genre-fusion can work ... it really does depend on the hands of the craftsman. 

 

Anyway, the most obvious influence of Lovecraft on Dragon Age is in the "Old gods" themselves. Of course, it's more nakedly obvious in WoW who their "old gods" are based on. There the "homage" is very, very clear.  

 

The names of two of the DA old gods seem taken from Jewish mythology and folklore (taken from the Wiki):

 

The name (Dumat) may be a reference to Dumah, the "angel of silence" in Jewish Religion.

The name (Razikel) may be a reference to "Raziel" an Archangel, and guardian of heavens's Mysteries

 

Zazikel also sounds like an 'angelic' name.

Toth, in turn, seems close to the Egyptian god of knowledge, Thoth, or of course like Lovecraft's mindless mad god at the center of the universe, Azathoth. 

[Brass_Buckles]

Hm.  This is a good question, actually.

 

I personally would not want to live in Thedas, especially since I'm female.  What darkspawn do to females would not be worth the risk of existing there.

 

DA:O fit the bill, I think, a bit more than DA2.  You had these horrible creatures welling up from the ground, tainting everything that they came in contact with.  The only way to prevent tainting was to burn the corpses, and possibly raze places where they'd been to the ground.  When you went into the Deep Roads, you discovered the source of the darkspawn, and in the process learned what they did to women whom they had captured.  That makes it clearer why there are few women Grey Wardens, and if you are a female Grey Warden you might have a bit of horror thinking that, yes, this could be you in the future.

 

On top of the darkspawn threat, there were loads of political shenanigans.  Play a woman, and people don't think you're as capable--some have commented that women and men are mostly treated the same in Dragon Age.  But in DA:O, people question whether you're capable, they expect you to settle down and marry instead of soldiering, etc.  Not so much so in DA2.  Play a human noble and your father is betrayed by his best friend.  Sure it's politics, but it's also horror.  Couple that with the darkspawn threat and Loghain's betrayal of Cailin, while the darkspawn are coming--thousands and thousands, endless numbers of them.

 

In DA:I the dark aspect is more subtle and psychological.  You hear all sorts of things about the town and what's beneath it, and then there's Anders' act of terrorism that relies on this dark magic beneath the city.  But, it was less of a dark fantasy overall than was DA:O.  Or perhaps I'm misremembering; it's been a long time since I played DA2.

[Das Tentakel]

I take the Clute definition to still more or less imply that if it involves vampires, werewolves, ghosts, things from beyond, giant tentacled monstrosities, and other things that go bump in the night in the modern or semi-modern world (that would include the 1920s-set fiction of H.P. Lovecraft or mebbe even the 1890s world of Cthulhu-by-gaslight), it's "horror" or "supernatural horror". Stephen King usually writes "horror". Though there is the sort of divergent storytelling he does in The Dark Tower series.  
 
But if it's those same kind of supernatural horror elements in a world that is more based on the medieval period, as fantasy usually is, then it is "dark fantasy". 
 
So, again, it would seem to me though the Clute definition focuses on broody-moody outcomes for protagonists or the bleak nature of the world as occasional elements, the presence of horrific forces and creatures seem to be more subgenre-defining. And of course "preponderance" means they can't just be infrequent and less than noticeable.

 
That's using some of the examples given by Clute against the fairly concise (if still somewhat flexible) wording of the definition itself. Again, sense of horror does not require a supernatural source per se. Most of the ‘horror’ in Wagner, Abercrombie and Martin comes from what people do (or don’t do) and, alas, is firmly based on what people are capable of doing and is exactly what  they do in the kind of extreme circumstances in which many fantasy stories take place .
 

 
Red Wedding anyone?
 
(Also: Colonel Kurtz's monologue )
 
In this respect, when it comes to ‘sense of horror’ it’s possible to make a distinction between ‘human-authored horror’, ‘supernatural horror’ (vampires and ghouls etc.) and ‘cosmic horror’ (a la Hodgson, Lovecraft et al). The first is what you find in, say, Martin, Wagner, Abercrombie and other fantasy authors who have been accused of being ‘grimdark’ (for a hilarious post on this, see Richard Morgan: 'Grim, dark and straw' ). It’s not the only kind of ‘horror’ you find in their works, but it’s pretty dominant. 

Its presence in DA is pretty weak. In theory, the setting should have it in spades. Like our world, it has racism, intolerance, oppression, brutal power politics etc. There is no ‘clean’ country (from a modern perspective) that can be considered ‘largely decent’ in terms of government, division between rich and poor, social mobility, a somewhat functional system of moral values etc.. Ferelden probably comes closest, being an incarnation of ‘America with swords’. In fact, things are unrealistically horrible on paper when you compare the nations of Thedas (in peacetime) with most periods of human history. The same applies to some ‘dark fantasy’ novels, hence the frequent usage of terms like  ‘grimdark’ and ‘crapsack world'.
However, in DA actual exposure is very limited and what there is (some) is badly executed or at best semi-convincing. As a result, the feeling is that of a generic D&D setting that has a bit more brown, grime and gore than usual.  
 
The best examples of supernatural horror in fantasy are, in my view, usually by authors who have also done horror. Incidentally, Karl Edward Wagner, apart from being one of the putative fathers of the term ‘dark fantasy’ was also an accomplished writer and editor of horror stories. In many cases fantasy with lots of ‘supernatural horror’ is classified with ‘horror’ (for instance many of the works of Clive Barker), but, particularly when it comes to more recent works, the term ‘dark fantasy’ has been claimed for it (sometimes with the intent to exclude other forms of ‘dark fantasy’). To some extent, this has been seen as a marketing ploy, artificially creating a specific new subgenre for marketing purposes*. 
 
In my view, there isn’t much supernatural horror in DA. Sure, there are supernatural monstrosities of some sort present. Werewolves here, a bit of Undead there, but no sense of horror. There is one section in DA:O where horror is fairly effectively evoked (the Broodmother), but this is not really supernatural horror. It is, instead, the use of ‘Lovecraftian furniture’ (insanity, transformation into / miscegenation with the monstrous, tentacles) to provoke a feeling of horror.

When it comes to Lovecraftian ‘cosmic horror’, Lovecraft's horrific entities are not, strictly speaking, supernatural at all, although they are vastly more powerful than Man, incomprehensible and care little (if at all) about Humanity. They may be perceived as 'counternatural', but really aren't - that's just the limited view of limited, inconsequential, ultimately doomed beings like Man. Insanity results from starting to know / comprehend this ‘Reality’ – leading to the breaking of the fragile and puny human mind.
The cosmos is cold and uncaring: "the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'."
 
Lovecraft and his Circle, as well as various predecessors (E.A. Poe, William Hodgson) and successors (from John Brunner to Vance and Zelazny) all had some direct and indirect influence on the various genres and subgenres of fantastic fiction and through them on videogames and their narratives. However, the typically Lovecraftian 'sense of cosmic horror' is almost always absent in videogames, with few exceptions.

The plot devices however, tentacled eldritch monstrosity X or quasi-demonic entity Y, what I call 'Lovecraftian furniture'? These are the equivalents of the use of Dwarves and Elves in generic (or, to follow Clute & Grant, 'genre') fantasy and end up in many 'fantasy' stories and RPG's because they have become part of the mainstream fantasy toolbox, and considered 'kinda kewl'. Only rarely will you find a real sense of Lovecraftian 'cosmic indifferentist' horror pervade the story or setting. 

It’s also absent in DA:O and DA2. It uses some quasi-Lovecraftian furniture, as does World of Warcraft. In DA the slightly Lovecraftian element basically consists of some tentacles and ‘miscegenation’ of normal beings with monstrosities (Broodmothers & Darkspawn). That’s about it. While the ‘gods’ in DA may not be real or merely more powerful beings that are asleep / exiled / corrupted, there is no sense that the odds are permanently stacked against humanity (and/or other humanoid races). At best, the situation is grim, but not hopeless. There is a sense that, while maybe not ‘gods’ in the metaphysical sense, the aforementioned powerful supernatural beings did and do take an interest in Humanity and the other races, even if that interest is maybe not wholly benevolent. People seem to matter in DA, either collectively or individually.
 
Having said that, the definition of ‘dark fantasy’ remains a contested issue; the IAFA (the International Association for the Fantastic in the Arts) started work on a collection of essays on the subject of dark fantasy:
 

Dark Fantasy emerged in the 1960s as a direct attack on high fantasy conventions, aims, and archetypes. Dark Fantasy narratives typically subvert, challenge, or abandon crucial fantasy elements, such as utopian landscapes, the experience of wonder, the virtuous hero, the moment of “eucatastrophe”, and the satisfying resolution to plot. Dark Fantasy has recently experienced a surge in popularity, yet has received little critical attention.
We invite Dark Fantasy scholars to submit essays to an edited collection. Essays should be between 4000 and 5000 words. The aims of the volume are, firstly, to bring scholars in the field to one place—given Dark Fantasy’s diffuseness—and secondly, to offer a collection that demonstrates the ways that Dark Fantasy texts can be analysed through various critical lenses. Finally, the volume would stake a place for Dark Fantasy within studies of popular culture.
Possible topics include:

• Contested definitions of Dark Fantasy (for instance, Clute and Grant’s Encyclopaedia of Fantasy[1999, 249] definition relies on what Dark Fantasy is not as much as what Dark Fantasy is)
• Dark Fantasy’s relationship to other fantasy genres
• Specific Dark Fantasy texts, such as Michael Moorcock’s Elric of Melnibone series, George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire series, Stephen Donaldson’s The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever, Stephen King’s the Dark Tower series, as well as urban Dark Fantasy texts such as the Anita Blake, Vampire Hunter series by Stacia Kane, and the Southern Vampire Mysteries series by Charlaine Harris.
• Heroes and villains in Dark Fantasy
• Appropriations of Dark Fantasy in fan fiction

 
30 september 2014 is the final deadline for the essays, so presumably we’ll see the results in early 2015. It does seem the IAFA uses a wider and ‘looser’ definition than Clute & Grant. 
 
 
*(All genre and subgenre classifications are, to a large extent, artificial and abstract. Professional critics do this for purposes of analysis, marketers do this for, well, marketing reasons).

[BroBear Berbil]

 

 

I personally would not want to live in Thedas, especially since I'm female.  What darkspawn do to females would not be worth the risk of existing there.

 

 

Really? It's a world where you're as strong as any man regardless of muscle mass, can own land and businesses, lead armies, vote (where applicable), and be as promiscuous as any wenching nobleman and nobody would have a thing to say about it. Compared to the real world in the middle ages I'd say women have a lot going for them in Thedas - enough that the miniscule risk that you'd encounter a darkspawn, and that it would elect to capture you, would be negligible.

 

DA touches on dark themes but I just don't find it very convincing. I'd say, there's a point where if you're going to call yourself "dark fantasy" you have to be willing to show more. A video game is not a book, after all. What DA does show, doesn't exactly fit with the narrative either. In DA2, for example, you're told over and over again how awful lowtown, the alienage, and the undercity are. Yet, these locations really don't seem all that terrible when you see them. It's not a depiction of poverty on the level of Dishonored, Witcher 2, or BioShock games. It's like they expect you to fill in a lot of blanks using your imagination which I'm fine with to an extent, but again, I'm playing a video game and not a book.

 

I'd say Witcher 2 would be the equivalent of an HBO or Showtime series in game terms, and DA is more akin to cable T.V. That doesn't mean DA is bad or unenjoyable, it's just not as dark/gritty and the plot is more straightforward.

[Iakus]

Dragon Age is high fantasy with some dark aspects to it.

 

I believe to truly be a "dark fantasy" it would have to be more dystopian than it is, and have more horror aspects to it.

 

And believe me, that's not what I want.  I have better things to do than hang out in a Crapsack World that I'm helpless to make better.

[Thermopylae]

A dark fantasy would include not just mounting supernatural horror with an apparent inability to  significantly alter the inevitable collapse but dystopian social elements such as corrupt authorities, kings ruling out of greed, lusting for power and without consideration of the best interests of their subjects. It would be interesting to have kings/ queens being portrayed as  good, just or kind during the build up or at a distance but when the player becomes involved with him or her at a proximity their reputations appear to be ironic or undeserved.

 

It would be hilariously dark if the inquisition could became out of control and contribute to these dystopian elements. 

 

I would purchase a game in this kind of setting but I do understand if others wouldn't.

[Thermopylae]

What the game needs to make it dark is to show what is already in the game but more to true life.

 

Don't make slavery in to a Disney fairy tale but show what real slavery is, same with rape don't make rape in to a nice scene but show the savagery of the rape.

 

In DA2 everything was a joke as all the companions and Hawke acted like monkeys in a comedy show. If you are going to show people dying then show it in some kind of realistic way and not a comedy show. Put the monkeys in a circus and show us the reality.

 

Um, this may not be as fun as it sounds. Or it may, unfortunately, be as fun as it sounds...

[Das Tentakel]

Um, this may not be as fun as it sounds. Or it may, unfortunately, be as fun as it sounds...

I doubt it. Remembering the few believable rape scenes in movies that I’ve seen, I’d like to keep them out of mainstream videogames, thank you very much. They were very, very harrowing - as they were intended to be, not to make things ‘dark’ for its own sake.
It’s also something different from things like warfare, poverty and murder. Real poverty is for the vast majority of us a relatively abstract concept, a condition people in distant countries (or, at worst, the slum at the other side of town) suffer from. Same with war and murder (the closest some of us get is a relative in the military serving in distant countries – again, far away).
Rape (or more broadly, sexual assault), however (far more than murder, even if you live in the USA) is something that is far more likely to happen to any of us, or to somebody close to us.
Few people will have friends, relatives, neighbours who have been murdered or killed and maimed in war; but there’s a fair chance there is somebody in your ‘circle’ who has been subjected to sexual assault.
It’s a very, very sensitive subject, and for good reason, so it has to be treated with a great deal of restraint, particularly because in the case of DA we’re still talking about a mainstream videogame aimed at a broad audience.
Those movies I referred to were the kind of adult ‘serious’ stuff that, I think, were unlikely to be seen by young / impressionable people (rest of the movies were too boring / serious / profound whatever). Mainstream videogames however…no matter what classification you slap on them, kids are going to play them.

I personally had some trouble with the (off-screen) rape in DA:O’s city elf starting area, not because it was treated with restraint (it’s not even entirely clear whether Shianni was actually ‘raped’ until a piece of dialogue later on), but because the Arl’s son and his cronies were such a bunch of unbelievable moustache-twirling villains. Totally sucked the seriousness out of the situation, even if that was probably unintentional. The whole scene could have worked with the same or even greater restraint if it had been combined with a greater level of seriousness.

Regarding slavery, we haven’t really seen much of that so far I think. Slavers yes, but actual functioning slavery? I’d like to point out that if we’re confronted with house slaves in, say, Tevinter, it’s quite likely they will be indistinguishable to the player from ‘free’ servants to all intents and purposes, unless the master / mistress is a sadist who likes to destroy his own property.
Which, come to think of it, since this is a mainstream videogame, is probably rather likely…

It’s certainly a subject where ‘dark’ and ‘mature’ can intersect in interesting ways, because a credible form of slavery would mean that the fate of most slaves would effectively have been better than that of many ‘free’ poor. On the other hand, there would have been specific ways in which the status of slaves and the (real or potential) ills of slavery, as compared to ‘free’ poor citizens or servants would have become apparent. Little to no protection against cruel, irresponsible masters (the Simon Legree type). Any form of open rebellion would be crushed with the utmost cruelty (just ask Spartacus’ 6,000 crucified followers). Outward signs of their status, like clothing or wearing a ‘dog tag’.



(Roman bronze tag from the British Museum, the inscription means ‘Tene me ne fugia(m) et revoca me ad dom(i)num Viventium in ar(e)a Callisti’: ‘Hold me, lest I flee, and return me to my master Viventius on the estate of Callistus’. What is telling is that they don’t know whether it’s literally a dog tag or was worn by a slave)

Instances where it is made clear that slaves, even if reasonably well-treated, are far below their masters and sometimes barely register as people. The HBO series ‘Rome’ had several scenes where this was made clear, including one of Attia having sex while her slaves where present, ready to bring refreshments when needed.

Honestly, I think this subtlety and nuance is way beyond mainstream videogames, so we’ll probably get lots of fantasy Simon Legrees with off-screen and thus abstract semi-insane sadism. Well, maybe some of it will be 'on-screen'....