171 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Well, you're putting people into ships, with big guns and the ability to go and blow up who they want. There will be absolute maniacs out there.

 

However, going out and blowing stuff up will have legal consequences; police, bounty hunters, other players, loss of citizenship, etc... so it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

Consequence is nice, but does a player care what the other player's consequences are if they are stuck without a ship and without money (and presumably not able to "play the game" so to speak)?*  I just bring this up because you talk about "this is why you have two ships" and stuff like that.  Though if one ship gets blown up and the other gets blown up shortly afterwards, seems to mitigate the idea of "there's a perfectly good reason for keeping at least two ships - even if the other one is a direct copy of their first ship!"

 

 

I do think that there are risks on making the game more like Eve Online rather than like Wing Commander/Privateer.  And in the latter the situation of "I own this game but am not able to currently play it right now because of circumstance" doesn't come up.  (Doubly so if there's a disparity on the abilities of the players based on if and when they backed the game).  Which is why I was asking.

 

 

 

*I do notice that you mention that missions and whatnot can be done in the meantime.  Though I admit that I am surprised that the game seems to have a rather distinctly hardcore approach since it seems like the ability for players to dig themselves very deep holes is not what I was expecting.

[BaggyGreen]

*I do notice that you mention that missions and whatnot can be done in the meantime.  Though I admit that I am surprised that the game seems to have a rather distinctly hardcore approach since it seems like the ability for players to dig themselves very deep holes is not what I was expecting.

 

Two (unrelated) things I'd say in response:

 

1) Yes, the game does have more of a hardcore edge. For example, there's also character permadeath if they get damaged enough times, or end up in some catastrophic disaster. Chris Roberts is in a video from last year sometime saying how he can't stand most modern games where you just play the level over and over and over and over again, smashing yourself against the opposition, until you win. He doesn't find that satisfying or realistic. He'd like people to think more about what they're doing. I've got to say, in many ways, I totally agree with him on that. Put some fear back into the gamer that they might actually lose something.

 

2) Re: the ship thing, if it's just a starter ship like the Aurora or Mustang, it likely appears quite quickly. Maybe within the same play session. We don't know yet, but there'll obviously be a sliding scale of getting a starter ship back a lot more quickly than, say, an Idris. So people will likely have multiple ships anyway; their starter ship plus whatever else they buy or acquire in the game. And they'd have to be deeply unlucky, or stupid, to be shot down multiple times in the same play session, unless they were absolutely going out of their way to get into fights with other people. Again, it comes back to the player's actions - not the game.

[BaggyGreen]

Right, I've been teetering for too long - finally put in a pledge for the 315p package!

 

I've reasoned with myself that it's almost inevitable that I'll play this - with all being well and I'm alive, healthy, have a decent machine to run it, decent internet and time to play. Closest I came to pledging before was late last summer, but somehow managed to talk myself out of it then.

 

With ED I knew it would at most be a stop gap until SC, and even then I could live without it in the meantime.

 

Top man, we'd love to speak to you further at www.pangalactic.co

[BaggyGreen]

I think he was very clever to sink his teeth into ideological side of PC gamers. " Let's show those dirty console publishers that yes! we! can! Let's show the world it has room for a space sim tailor made by PC man for PC men! Roberts Garriot 2016!" 

 

Well, you might mock, but is there any of that you actually disagree with? Or are you a console gamer? LOL

[Sailears]

Top man, we'd love to speak to you further at www.pangalactic.co

 

Cheers, I've registered on there but I'll post a full introduction tomorrow - really must get some sleep.

[Wires_From_The_Wall]

Well, you might mock, but is there any of that you actually disagree with? Or are you a console gamer? LOL

 

.... There isn't mockery, or disagreement, or agreement. Just my take to what happened. If you manage to ->SPEAK< - AAA level of funding from normal gamers,  I think it is pretty valid and interesting  to try to comprehend the how-to's in it.

[ruggly]

People who have money to throw at the game will fair better in the beginning at least, but if it's easy enough to save up in game money to purchase other ships, it shouldn't be too horrible. Though this is where joining a organization would benefit players who think/know they're going to struggle a bit.  There was one I was looking at that my friend joined and they are one of the more laid back types, willing to help anyone out so long as you help out back.  I know my friend and I are planning to run most things together.

[BaggyGreen]

Cheers, I've registered on there but I'll post a full introduction tomorrow - really must get some sleep.

 

That's cool. Plenty of time to chat, later

[BaggyGreen]

People who have money to throw at the game will fair better in the beginning at least, but if it's easy enough to save up in game money to purchase other ships, it shouldn't be too horrible. Though this is where joining a organization would benefit players who think/know they're going to struggle a bit.  There was one I was looking at that my friend joined and they are one of the more laid back types, willing to help anyone out so long as you help out back.  I know my friend and I are planning to run most things together.

 

Yes, a good group will help for sure. We're on the more laid back side... we're not one of these faux military outfits you see already getting around with their ranks and "chain of command" and stuff that doesn't even exist without a game. But that's fine; some people obviously like that sort of thing; but we don't!

[Allan Schumacher]

1) Yes, the game does have more of a hardcore edge. For example, there's also character permadeath if they get damaged enough times, or end up in some catastrophic disaster. Chris Roberts is in a video from last year sometime saying how he can't stand most modern games where you just play the level over and over and over and over again, smashing yourself against the opposition, until you win. He doesn't find that satisfying or realistic. He'd like people to think more about what they're doing. I've got to say, in many ways, I totally agree with him on that. Put some fear back into the gamer that they might actually lose something.

 

I was under the impression that permadeath would result in a legacy character taking over, with faction alignment adjustments, rather than any overtly punitive permadeath situations.  I heard this from a secondary source that follows the game more closely than me, however, not from anything official.

 

 

2) Re: the ship thing, if it's just a starter ship like the Aurora or Mustang, it likely appears quite quickly. Maybe within the same play session. We don't know yet, but there'll obviously be a sliding scale of getting a starter ship back a lot more quickly than, say, an Idris. So people will likely have multiple ships anyway; their starter ship plus whatever else they buy or acquire in the game. And they'd have to be deeply unlucky, or stupid, to be shot down multiple times in the same play session, unless they were absolutely going out of their way to get into fights with other people. Again, it comes back to the player's actions - not the game.

 

This only happens if the ship is properly insured though, right?  I'm more thinking about situations where a player is so broke that they can't afford insurance.  I suppose they could start a new character if they are in that much dire straits.  Though the idea of being part of a crew is very interesting (whether it be a player ship or a non-player ship).  As long as there are ways for the player to get back into the saddle, though, it's not a huge concern.

 

As for the bolded, the human element is a huge, huge, huge X-Factor IMO.  If there's a human element and it's open PvP, I wouldn't be surprised if the same person getting killed multiple times was a reasonably common occurrence.

[ruggly]

Though it's off topic, talking about space battles reminded me of one crazy ass battle that occurred in EVE

 

Imagine something like happening in SC, how crazy that would be.

[Cyonan]

I was also under the impression that the death mechanic worked such that you got so many deaths explained in-game as cybernetic replacements until your body can no longer accept any more at which point you get to make a new "next of kin" character which inherits some but not all of the previous characters resources, including all of your ships.

 

I have also heard they're looking at implementing a slider to choose if you want a more PvE or PvP based experience in the game. While you wont be able to completely take away one or the other, if you don't want constant fighting with other players you can limit it to mostly running into NPC controlled ships.

 

They seem to be going very heavy on the "immersive universe" side of things though, so it does seem like it will be very possible for somebody to get into a bad situation where they have no ship for a length of time where they need to grind credits in order to be able to purchase one again.

[Allan Schumacher]

Re: Eve fight

 

Yeah that's pretty recent.  I expect events like that to happen in Star Citizen too.

[BaggyGreen]

I was under the impression that permadeath would result in a legacy character taking over, with faction alignment adjustments, rather than any overtly punitive permadeath situations.  I heard this from a secondary source that follows the game more closely than me, however, not from anything official.

 

This only happens if the ship is properly insured though, right?  I'm more thinking about situations where a player is so broke that they can't afford insurance.  I suppose they could start a new character if they are in that much dire straits.  Though the idea of being part of a crew is very interesting (whether it be a player ship or a non-player ship).  As long as there are ways for the player to get back into the saddle, though, it's not a huge concern.

 

Yes, in the case of permadeath, you get a new character who can be spun as a descendant or heir of the original character. I wasn't really commenting on the full mechanics, simply that there's permadeath. When that character's done... it's done! Unlike most other games on the market today where you just go back a save. That's the sort of stuff that drives Chris nuts.

 

And re: ships, yes, they have to be insured to reappear again in your hangar after a period of time. Your concern about having enough money for ships, insurance, etc, isn't uncommon, but the CIG guys are at pains to say that, even if you're at rock bottom, with nothing at all, it will only take a few missions with NPCs to make enough money to buy a ship; which likely has at least three months insurance on it.

[BaggyGreen]

I was also under the impression that the death mechanic worked such that you got so many deaths explained in-game as cybernetic replacements until your body can no longer accept any more at which point you get to make a new "next of kin" character which inherits some but not all of the previous characters resources, including all of your ships.

 

I have also heard they're looking at implementing a slider to choose if you want a more PvE or PvP based experience in the game. While you wont be able to completely take away one or the other, if you don't want constant fighting with other players you can limit it to mostly running into NPC controlled ships.

 

They seem to be going very heavy on the "immersive universe" side of things though, so it does seem like it will be very possible for somebody to get into a bad situation where they have no ship for a length of time where they need to grind credits in order to be able to purchase one again.

 

Correct. That's why I said, earlier, "... there's also character permadeath if they get damaged enough times, or end up in some catastrophic disaster."

 

Basically, if you get shot down, and eject in a pod enough times, you get damaged over time. However, if you're EV in a pod, and someone, who doesn't care about the consequences to their in-game reputation comes along and destroys the pod you're in, you are actually really, really, really dead. That's a good example of the kind of catastrophic disaster situation I also mentioned.

 

The slider will help a lot re: when you're flying along, and whether the server 'match mates' you with some other player wanting to PvP, or just some generic AI craft. Naturally, it will also match mate you with players, or AI, around the same level and equipment as you as well, so there's a fairness at play, so the game isn't just stupidly overwhelming and off-putting to people. It's meant to be fun.

[BaggyGreen]

Though it's off topic, talking about space battles reminded me of one crazy ass battle that occurred in EVE

 

Imagine something like happening in SC, how crazy that would be.

 

It likely won't happen, as the number of ships in each instance will be way, way, way lower.

 

Don't get me wrong, you will see furballs with LOTS of ships, but due to the way the server load from each individually piloted ship is way higher that the way EVE does it, you will never see EVE like numbers in the space battles in SC. Further, given how the majority of the ships are way smaller than capital ship size, having dogfights with 1000 fighters in them, for example, would just be too stupidly chaotic to be enjoyable, anyway.

[Cyonan]

Correct. That's why I said, earlier, "... there's also character permadeath if they get damaged enough times, or end up in some catastrophic disaster."

 

Basically, if you get shot down, and eject in a pod enough times, you get damaged over time. However, if you're EV in a pod, and someone, who doesn't care about the consequences to their in-game reputation comes along and destroys the pod you're in, you are actually really, really, really dead. That's a good example of the kind of catastrophic disaster situation I also mentioned.

 

The slider will help a lot re: when you're flying along, and whether the server 'match mates' you with some other player wanting to PvP, or just some generic AI craft. Naturally, it will also match mate you with players, or AI, around the same level and equipment as you as well, so there's a fairness at play, so the game isn't just stupidly overwhelming and off-putting to people. It's meant to be fun.

 

I am curious as to how their matchmaking system work, although I know they don't have those details worked out just yet.

 

I've often seen a lot of troubles come from matchmaking systems that can be manipulated. There are always going to be people who find fun in steamrolling weaker players, and they will always look for a way to do so.

 

I also have to wonder how the system will weight the strength of the various ship and if you'll be more likely to go up against the same ship.

[Allan Schumacher]

Yes, in the case of permadeath, you get a new character who can be spun as a descendant or heir of the original character. I wasn't really commenting on the full mechanics, simply that there's permadeath. When that character's done... it's done! Unlike most other games on the market today where you just go back a save. That's the sort of stuff that drives Chris nuts.

 

And re: ships, yes, they have to be insured to reappear again in your hangar after a period of time. Your concern about having enough money for ships, insurance, etc, isn't uncommon, but the CIG guys are at pains to say that, even if you're at rock bottom, with nothing at all, it will only take a few missions with NPCs to make enough money to buy a ship; which likely has at least three months insurance on it.

 

Yeah, I ended up reading his player death one.

 

It'll be interesting how he balances consequences vs. still allowing the player to have fun.  I wonder how effective the death mechanic will be at delivering his goal of ensuring players have a sense of anxiety and caution.

[ruggly]

I am curious as to how their matchmaking system work, although I know they don't have those details worked out just yet.

 

I've often seen a lot of troubles come from matchmaking systems that can be manipulated. There are always going to be people who find fun in steamrolling weaker players, and they will always look for a way to do so.

 

I also have to wonder how the system will weight the strength of the various ship and if you'll be more likely to go up against the same ship.

 

That is a good question, not a lot more ruins a good time for me than some player who is clearly more experienced/better equipped coming in to a casual area and just wiping everyone because they can.

[upsettingshorts]

Wouldn't such players suffer severe in-game consequences for that?  Being branded a pirate and criminal, being banned from civilized systems, and hunted by the police, military, and bounty hunters?

 

Seems like both a fitting deterrent and and adaquete penalty for anyone who decides that's the kind of game they want to play.  Yeah someone can noob!murder you, but they're gonna pay for it.

[BaggyGreen]

Wouldn't such players suffer severe in-game consequences for that?  Being branded a pirate and criminal, being banned from civilized systems, and hunted by the police, military, and bounty hunters?

 

Seems like both a fitting deterrent and and adaquete penalty for anyone who decides that's the kind of game they want to play.  Yeah someone can noob!murder you, but they're gonna pay for it.

 

That's pretty much what will happen I believe, yes

[Allan Schumacher]

Wouldn't such players suffer severe in-game consequences for that?  Being branded a pirate and criminal, being banned from civilized systems, and hunted by the police, military, and bounty hunters?

 

It's something we won't really know until release.

 

Though the issue is less a single person being an ass, and more with multiple people colluding.  One person can dig themselves a pretty deep hole by constantly being belligerent.  But if you spread that across 5/10/20 people, the effects may get mitigated.  This is assuming that players can't get themselves to a point where they simply don't care about anything the AI can throw at them (civilized systems, police, military, AI bounty hunters).  One guy can dig up a hefty bounty to draw the attention of other players, but if the bounty gets split among several different pilots, do they still draw the eye of player bounty hunters?

 

 

It all depends on what the costs end up being and how those penalties are imposed.

 

The counterpoint is mostly that they do find an appropriate cost that keeps this type of activity minimal.  But I do think it's a valid concern.  I'd be surprised if they nail it out of the park on the first go.

[Cyonan]

It does seem like Chris wants pirate to be an actual thing for players to be able to do in the game so I don't feel like they'll limit it that much outside of UEE(the main human military power) space.

 

It's a very fine line to balance letting players be pirates, and not letting them grief other players. Against the smaller groups or individual pirates, I suspect the generally accepted way of dealing with them will be to get a decently armed ship yourself, hire a merc for protection, or to simply not leave UEE space. For somebody like me who is going to be an explorer, the last one obviously isn't an option which means I'm shooting for option number 1 right now. I'm hoping to get a Constellation after launch which is a good all around ship.

 

It's when they start getting organized into entire fleets that the big issues will start coming up, as we would need to either A. Have so many mercs and bounty hunters that we outnumber them or B. Get organized into our own group of bounty hunters and get a coordinated effort into fighting them.

 

Even if the matchmaking system put them up against a fleet of random players, I imagine that two dozen people flying solo wont hold up very well against two dozen pirates all with good communication and coordination and possibly on some kind of VOIP program.

[Giggles_Manically]

The issue with Piracy is that there are two types I know of from Eve:

 

The Professional: Who takes goods and lets you leave.

The Psychopath: Who kills you no matter what.

 

The first time is a pain but not that bad, its the second type who will kill you no matter what.

Though it gets worse when they hold a Grudge.

 

Its all fun and games until you get killed by someone and then hunt them down for that.

[BaggyGreen]

From what I sense in the community so far, there will be pirates, and some of them seem quite nutty. And, naturally within that you get all the variations, from the, "I'm evil and I'm gonna kill ya..." to "I'm evil and I'm gonna kill ya... but it's only because I'm roleplaying, honest..."

 

They do seem to be in the minority, however. I think more people will be engaged in trying to chase down pirates, than being pirates.