10 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Keeping in mind that I am retreading old ground, I'll post a short summary of my suggestions about the dialogue system collected from old threads:

 

(1) I consider it highly desirable to have knowledge of the complete content and exact phrasing of a spoken line before I choose it.

 

Reason: not knowing makes me feel like an observer or a director, rather than the one playing the character. It prevents me from taking ownership of the character as I want and gives me the impression that I am not allowed to know what's in my character's mind. Agency over that, however, is the last refuge of a roleplayer in a game that is by necessity limited in the variety of ways it can react to player actions.

 

(2) If paraphrasing is used, I consider it indispensable to have accurate and complete information about the semantic content of the spoken line I'll get if I choose the paraphrase.

 

The difference to (1) is that I'll use this argument in cases like DAI, where it's already decided we won't get the exact phrasing (do I need to repeat that I detest that fact?). In this case, we need accurate information, i.e. the paraphrase must not deceive me about what is in the spoken line. This is a well-known problem, but the paraphrase must also contain also complete information, i.e. it must not leave out any significant information about what is in the spoken line. This specifically applies to cases where the writer of a paraphrase may think some part of the spoken lines' content can be inferred by association. This is very often not true since not all people associate the same things with specific terms. Notable example: the emotionally positive option is not necessarily associated with the morally good. 

 

This leads to the request to make paraphrases longer and more precise, and or give me the complete and exact content of a spoken line before I choose it. 

 

(3) If paraphrasing is used, giving me paraphrases that describe a sentiment are not enough.

 

I do not make decisions on a whim, neither in real life nor in games, except sometimes if I speak about inconsequential things. Words do matter, and as a rule, most often I consider carefully what I will say. Thus, a system that uses short paraphrases that describe a sentiment rather than give me accurate and complete information will always fail me. I do not want to play games that leave me no choice but to make decisions on a sentiment because no other information is available. Perhaps I'm in a minority in that, but I do not trust emotions alone to lead to good outcomes. I think a story that sends such a message supports a dangerous and delusional mindset, and thus my distaste for it is much more than a personal preference.

 

This, too, leads to the request to make paraphrases longer and more precise, and or give me the complete and exact content of a spoken line before I choose it.

 

[Zack_Nero]

If you look at the Pax demo (2013) they showed in the gameplay that it already has been address. Before you make a choice in the dialogue wheel an extra line will appear (with the option to turn it on or off) that states what your about to say and the choice your about to make.

[The Elder King]

If you look at the Pax demo (2013) they showed in the gameplay that it already has been address. Before you make a choice in the dialogue wheel an extra line will appear (with the option to turn it on or off) that states what your about to say and the choice your about to make.

That works onl for the action wheel. For the tone wheel and reaction wheel, it'd confirmed there'll not be a over-text explanation.

[Elissiaro]

If you look at the Pax demo (2013) they showed in the gameplay that it already has been address. Before you make a choice in the dialogue wheel an extra line will appear (with the option to turn it on or off) that states what your about to say and the choice your about to make.

If I remember correctly, that showed the consequense of what you say, not what you actually say.

 

I'd rather know what I'm saying than what will happen because of those secret words I'm not allowed to know what they are...

[bEVEsthda]

I totally agree with the OP.

Of course, I've said that much (and a good deal more) at many times, post DA2.

But right now, I kinda feel I have to wait and see, how it will work in Inquisition. It's not likely the system will change now, anyway.

 

The reason I post is I'd like to add a reason. I need to read the lines because I need the time to make the spoken words the property of my char. In my head.

I have to juggle thoughts, emotions and motives, until the pieces fit in my puzzle. Until the lines become my character's dialogue lines.

[CybAnt1]

Perhaps, Ieldra, we need to start the Nostalgiac Grognards' Words Do Matter Caucus, or Special Interest Group, or whatever those things are called around here.

 

You know, I read your pleas for what should be so obvious a feature to anybody with a history of playing either PnP RPGs or CRPGs, and I'm amazed it seems like they get so little support. Well, you know I am on your side. 

 

I can remember many games where I stared at a choice of words to give to the evil kobold chief, words that might make the difference between him gutting me alive, or letting me pass through his territory. So perhaps I was presented with a choice of dialogue that was poorly written, frustratingly without the choice of words I would choose -- were I in fact my mighty sentinel in that situation, etc. But at least choices of words were there. 

 

What choices do these so-called "dialogue wheels" offer? Funny little emoticons. Fit for punctuating forum posts, but a sorry guide for selecting dialogue, reactions, and responses. And pithy little paraphrases whose relationship to the dialogue that follows is often quite frustratingly scant. "But it doesn't matter to the outcome of the encounter" some will say. To which I will say, who cares? I'm picking my words not because of what outcome or consequence will or will not occur, but I want to select the kind of dialogue my character's throat is most likely to emit in that situation.

 

I can't role-play the kind of character I want to play if his thoughts, emotions, and inner life are walled off from me. Most normal people think about what they are going to say -- then say it. Allowing me to READ what my character is about to say allows me to "virtually" go through that process as if I were him -- that thing we call "roleplaying". 

 

As I've said enough times, I can live with a voiced protagonist, I guess I can even live with a wheel (although I think the wheel UI needs to be redone to either allow something longer than existing paraphrases, or there needs to be hover-over tooltips with moartext), what I can't live with and hated in DA 2 was the game of Guess the Result of the Paraphrase.

 

Good to know what actions will follow on the action wheel, just wish I could know what dialogue my PC will emit from the tone wheel. And not just the tone, and some often rather arbitrary paraphrase. 

[Aldric Shepard]

The point of the dialog wheel is to make conversations more cinematic. I agree it's not good when your character surprises and disappoints you with their words, but if you get a word-for-word preview of what will be said you miss out on the delivery of those words. I'll take the bad with the good, and just reload when my character says something I don't like.

[CybAnt1]

If I wanted to watch a movie, I would rent a movie. I want to play a game. Particularly, a role-playing game. That means I don't watch myself talking, I decide what to say. (see quote from Brent Knowles in my sig file) This should be a participatory, not passive, experience. 

 

The rest of the game can be as cinematic as needs to be. I love cutscenes (except when they blow away stealth). If "cinematics" for me as a protagonist means less control over my character, then try another approach. Voiced is fine. There are other ways to do it. 

 

BTW, I understand reloading if my party gets killed in an encounter, or in rare circumstances, at least on play through 2, if I really want to change my mind about a choice I've made, but I don't want to reload just because dialogue sounds funny. As I've said, I think I could live with the "full-textless" system if the dialogue wheel had a back/redo button that let me keep trying options until I heard the one I liked best. It might be all 3, then I'll make up my mind. 

[Aldric Shepard]

If I wanted to watch a movie, I would rent a movie. I want to play a game. Particularly, a role-playing game. That means I don't watch myself talking, I decide what to say. (see quote from Brent Knowles in my sig file) This should be a participatory, not passive, experience. 

 

If you think you're deciding what to say in any game you're kidding yourself. Whether you're choosing an unvoiced, word-for-word conversation option or choosing a voiced option from a dialog wheel, you're still selecting which reply you want out of a handful of options the designers have written. You won't ever really decide what to say until games can actually understand the words coming out of your mouth.

 

It may just be my opinion, but I'd rather be entertained by the different things my character says than have my only choice be which of a few one liners to select that don't even display the character's personality.

[CybAnt1]

I guess the problem is when it comes to role-playing a character, I'm not "entertained" by not-knowing what s/he is about to say. I love being surprised by Inspector Clouseau when I'm watching him in a movie; I just don't want me to surprise me when I'm playing me (when me is the character I'm playing.) 

 

I like surprises; I just don't like them when I'm RPing. 

 

That said, there is a way to have voiced lines with tones, you can even keep them on a wheel, and give players an OPTION to see (some portion of) full-text beforehand -- on an optional tooltip. (see DX:HR). 

 

But this is a discussion that I know goes nowhere until DA4. We know they're not doing it. At least not for DA3. 

[Aldric Shepard]

Yeah, I don't see any reason not to have the option of seeing what will be said word-for-word. I just wouldn't want it to be mandatory for those of us who don't want the flow of a scene interrupted by reading the script. One of my favorite things about BioWare games is that conversations are more like interactive cut scenes, instead of just he says, I say, he says, I say.