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[Lulupab]

The famous quote by David Gaider "Justice might be another story" driven me to make this thread.

 

I was thinking, in theory Vengeance is not a being and it doesn't exist on its own. Its more of a mood or form. Let me put it this way, when Anders is calm or when we are in the fade and the spirit is in full control there is no sign of Vengeance at all, its the Justice we know from Awakening, a spirit who does everything in its power to uphold his name which is Justice. In the fade he is recognized as a spirit by a demon and he is willing to die and fight you if you decide to sacrifice an innocent to fuel a demon's ambition. (Accepting Torpor's offer)

 

So basically Vengeance only exists when Anders (or both Anders and Justice) are angry, especially if their anger is towards the Templars and injustices inflicted upon mages and then Vengeance shapes and he has no grasp for mercy, its more of hybrid created by Anders and Justice, both of them are there yet none of them are their true selves. But otherwise its only Justice, living in Anders' head and acting like he does in awakening. In Awakening Justice demands that Anders should fight his oppressors and when Anders merges with Justice its what they are doing. "Fighting your oppressors" usually involves murdering them as far as I know so no need to put Vengeance label on Justice. Justice is no questions asked type of person, if Templars/chantry or anyone for that matter are guilty they must pay. No questions asked no strings attached, only judgement cast.

 

Of course this my opinion and point of view, let us discuss how true it is and hear your opinions too.

[wcholcombe]

Gaider has also make a comment at one point about the possible affect of the taint in Anders on the Spirit of Justice.  I think this is far more plausible than the idea that Justice was corrupted into Vengeance by Ander's feelings about the treatment of Mages.

[ReadingRambo220]

That can't be right, his original host (Kristof) was tainted. Dead things still carry the taint, evidenced by Ruck and the Joining itself.

[Chaia]

Since the whole plot round Inquisition seems to being revolving around the tears in the Veil, breaches directly from Thedas into the Fade, I'm interested to see what effect this has on the whole Anders/Justice/Vengeance.

 

After all (from what I recall) Justice/Vengeance takes over and controls Anders whilst in the Fade during the quest Night Terrors.

[wcholcombe]

Gaider has a comment he made regarding the possibility that the taint in Anders may have affected Justice. He doesn't bother to explain it or elaborate any, but he threw it out there.

 

Plus, you have to remember, Justice was part of Anders a lot longer than he was part of Kristoff.  Also, Ruck eating dead darkspawn is a bit different than a spirit inhabiting a tainted corpse.  Ruck is ingesting the toxin, theoretically the taint in Kristoff may not have had a direct impact on Justice sense Kristoff was dead.

[General TSAR]

Good going Anders. 

[Jack Druthers]

But there was pride demon in Ortan Thaig.  Would it be possible for Ruck to be possessed as well?  That would have started any questions regarding the taint and whether there was a connection with demons really early in the game. If there is one. I suppose Sophia Dryden would be another example.

[wcholcombe]

No, DG wasn't saying that the taint is responsible for demons. He just was throwing out there into a discussion about the possiblity of the taint affecting or destabilising Justice.

[jedicam10]

Gaider has a comment he made regarding the possibility that the taint in Anders may have affected Justice. He doesn't bother to explain it or elaborate any, but he threw it out there.

Plus, you have to remember, Justice was part of Anders a lot longer than he was part of Kristoff. Also, Ruck eating dead darkspawn is a bit different than a spirit inhabiting a tainted corpse. Ruck is ingesting the toxin, theoretically the taint in Kristoff may not have had a direct impact on Justice sense Kristoff was dead.

Also, Ander was still alive, unlike Kristoff. All of Justice's thoughts were his own in Awakening.

[Lulupab]

So if what I think is right Justice's transformation to Vengeance is always temporary and linked to anger. Vengeance as a form does not exist as default. Its always Justice in normal situations.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

"If one comes to call vengeance justice, such justice will only breed further vengeance and trigger a cycle of hatred." - Pein

[Grieving Natashina]

I'm not sure about Justice, although I think if Anders dies Justice will go back to how he was before.  I doubt we'll have Vengeance running amok, but anything is possible.

 

 

When it comes to the Taint, for those that don't know what the other posters are referring to, the source is here:

 

http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html

 

 

 

TUK: Can I ask, what effect if any Anders being merged with Justice is going to have on his Calling?

DG: Uh...interesting. I'm getting some...okay, it's gone now, I was hearing a mental voice there, it was weird. [laughter] There were some plans to address that but in the end it became very complicated. I think there are a couple possibilities. One is that the spirit within Anders can affect the level of his corruption, so it may delay or remove the necessity for his Calling altogether. Either that or at some point the corruption within Anders is going to corrupt the spirit. I think those are the two most likely outcomes. I'm not going to say which of those we prefer, because Anders can survive DA2 so therefore there's a possibility that we may need him in the future.

[Lulupab]

"If one comes to call vengeance justice, such justice will only breed further vengeance and trigger a cycle of hatred." - Pein

 

Well that is a very good line, in modern times...

 

In medieval times and Thedas for that matter most of the times Justice is Vengeance. Murdering Arl Howe as Cousland, Killing son of arl of Denerim as city elf etc... All of these acts are Justice and Vengeance both. There is no prison for them to go, only dungeons of nobility. Justice or Vengeance are both double edged swords and can always hurt oneself too, hence the possible outcome of Anders dying.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well that is a very good line, in modern times...

 

In medieval times and Thedas for that matter most of the times Justice is Vengeance. Murdering Arl Howe as Cousland, Killing son of arl of Denerim as city elf etc... All of these acts are Justice and Vengeance both. There is no prison for them to go, only dungeons of nobility. Justice or Vengeance are both double edged swords and can always hurt oneself too, hence the possible outcome of Anders dying.

Thank you, though it applies regardless of times. 

 

You mean how the murder of Arl Howe that resulted in his son Nathaniel sneaking into Vigil's Keep to get vengeance on you? Or how the guard purged the alienage as vengeance for Vaugan's murder? Or even the entire Mage-Templar situation?

 

Here's a quote from Varric about it: "Justice is a funny concept. It will drive a man to preform the noblest deeds, as well as the worst atrocities. Justice is a blade that draws blood from the innocent and the wicked alike. And raised high, can lead a charge that changes the world forever."

[Lulupab]

Thank you, though it applies regardless of times. 

 

You mean how the murder of Arl Howe that resulted in his son Nathaniel sneaking into Vigil's Keep to get vengeance on you? Or how the guard purged the alienage as vengeance for Vaugan's murder? Or even the entire Mage-Templar situation?

 

Here's a quote from Varric about it: "Justice is a funny concept. It will drive a man to preform the noblest deeds, as well as the worst atrocities. Justice is a blade that draws blood from the innocent and the wicked alike. And raised high, can lead a charge that changes the world forever."

 

It does apply to all times but there is no way to actually follow it at all times. We couldn't send Howe to prison, he would have got out using his connections etc... When there is no system, possibly modern, people use Vengeance to get Justice. Not saying its a good thing but its the case nonetheless.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It does apply to all times but there is no way to actually follow it at all times. We couldn't send Howe to prison, he would have got out using his connections etc... When there is no system, possibly modern, people use Vengeance to get Justice. Not saying its a good thing but its the case nonetheless.

Howe was a traitor, so he'd have been executed. I'm not saying you should always spare people, but even in the game it shows that going with the lust for vengeance will only cause others to do the same to you or those close to you.

[Xilizhra]

"If one comes to call vengeance justice, such justice will only breed further vengeance and trigger a cycle of hatred." - Pein

And Anders is the culmination of that principle, a result of the Chantry's own vengeance.

 

Howe was a traitor, so he'd have been executed. I'm not saying you should always spare people, but even in the game it shows that going with the lust for vengeance will only cause others to do the same to you or those close to you.

Sometimes it's not about vengeance, but about protecting others. Which is why Vaughan has to die, and Howe, and the Templar Order.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ah, Xil. Killing people who kill in the name of protecting others in the name of protecting others.

[Xilizhra]

Ah, Xil. Killing people who kill in the name of protecting others in the name of protecting others.

That is indeed how war frequently goes, yes.

[Dean_the_Young]

That is indeed how war frequently goes, yes.

 

 

 

Truly we need more people like you to kill people like you so that people like you don't come into power to kill people like you.

 

 

 

I'm also a bit surprised that you'd have Tarquin as your avatar, given that how pathetic he is has been the focus of the previous arc. Redcloak would seem to suit you more.

 

Peshaw, Redcloak is factional self-interested greater-lesser-good evil. That's basically tribal. Tarquin makes no pretenses (except, of course, when he does... in pursuit of that lack of pretense).

 

Sure, Tarquin's conclusion and the arc's anti-climax were pathetic, but so what? It was the most appropriate way to shut down someone so genre savy. I appreciate a character who's self-aware and even realistic in their ambitions, for a certain meta-awareness level of realistic. The evil empire of drama monologue rates as one of my favorite villainous motivation speaches of all time.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And Anders is the culmination of that principle, a result of the Chantry's own vengeance.

 

 

 

Sometimes it's not about vengeance, but about protecting others. Which is why Vaughan has to die, and Howe, and the Templar Order.

 

Indeed. I was just posting that quote because it fits what is happening in Thedas now.

 

And I agree with that, well except for the 'killing the entire Templar Order' part. There are some people who in protection of others you kill, but then you can't really say you are killing them in vengeance, can you? At that point, you aren't doing it for yourself but for others.

[Xilizhra]

Truly we need more people like you to kill people like you so that people like you don't come into power to kill people like you.

Ideally we can spend most of our time killing people like Vaughan. I'd be fine with ending the templar war peacefully, I just doubt that they'll all surrender and disarm.

 

 

 

 

Sure, Tarquin's conclusion and the arc's anti-climax were pathetic, but so what? It was the most appropriate way to shut down someone so genre savy. I appreciate a character who's self-aware and even realistic in their ambitions, for a certain meta-awareness level of realistic. The evil empire of drama monologue rates as one of my favorite villainous motivation speaches of all time.

I think the idea is that he wasn't actually all that self-aware, and his genre savviness was seriously hampered by his inability to see himself as anything other than the main villain, which he very obviously is not. Also, most of what he claims as his actual accomplishments were the work of his party, which tends to let him think he's much more important than he really is.

 

 

And I agree with that. There are some people who in protection of others you kill, but then you can't really say you are killing them in vengeance, can you? At that point, you aren't doing it for yourself but for others.

Unfortunately, Anders slid over that line in the end, but I think he was pulled back, and I can personally avoid crossing it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ideally we can spend most of our time killing people like Vaughan. I'd be fine with ending the templar war peacefully, I just doubt that they'll all surrender and disarm.

 

 

 

Unfortunately they have people like you on their side.

 

 

 

I think the idea is that he wasn't actually all that self-aware, and his genre savviness was seriously hampered by his inability to see himself as anything other than the main villain, which he very obviously is not. Also, most of what he claims as his actual accomplishments were the work of his party, which tends to let him think he's much more important than he really is.

 

 

You are right that he was arrogant to see himself as the main villain: pride was his fatal flaw, and one pulled off by the writers in an excellent way. I was using the term self-aware in a different sense, but not to ignore that flaw (which, all things considered, only took off after Elan's appearance as a archetypical hero).

 

I disagree about the part of the party, but more because I don't view him as ignoring their contributions.
 

 

Unfortunately, Anders slid over that line in the end, but I think he was pulled back, and I can personally avoid crossing it.

 

Xil, not to put too much of a point on it, but you are far to self-centered and wishy-washy to be able to claim that.

 

In the last three years I have seen you change positions and change your mind and cross a number of lines and arguments you have claimed you would never cross. You consistently self-identify with a group and then adopt arguments going outright into the hypocritical in your stances with other groups, and frequently indulge in fallacious and outright (and, by your own past concessions, deliberatly dishonest) claims to justify them. Your power fantasies range for what you would do if you could promptly usurp any claims you make about how groups with power should interact with others.

 

In the last several years I've known you and several thousand posts I've seen you make, I've never known you to take a principled position you wouldn't step over once you had the power to get away with it.

[Xilizhra]

Unfortunately they have people like you on their side.

Well, those who are genuinely like me could probably be persuaded to cross over.

 

I disagree about the part of the party, but more because I don't view him as ignoring their contributions.

I think Rich confirmed that part.

 

Xil, not to put too much of a point on it, but you are far to self-centered and wishy-washy to be able to claim that.

 

In the last three years I have seen you change positions and change your mind and cross a number of lines and arguments you have claimed you would never cross. You consistently self-identify with a group and then adopt arguments going outright into the hypocritical in your stances with other groups, and frequently indulge in fallacious and outright (and, by your own past concessions, deliberatly dishonest) claims to justify them. Your power fantasies range for what you would do if you could promptly usurp any claims you make about how groups with power should interact with others.

 

In the last several years I've known you and several thousand posts I've seen you make, I've never known you to take a principled position you wouldn't step over once you had the power to get away with it.

Given that your interpretation of prior dirty laundry has no place in this thread, I will say only that I have no position of power IRL and was referring solely to my PCs.

[Kirrahe1]

The famous quote by David Gaider "Justice might be another story" driven me to make this thread.

So basically Vengeance only exists when Anders (or both Anders and Justice) are angry, especially if their anger is towards the Templars and injustices inflicted upon mages and then Vengeance shapes and he has no grasp for mercy, its more of hybrid created by Anders and Justice, both of them are there yet none of them are their true selves. But otherwise its only Justice, living in Anders' head and acting like he does in awakening.
 
Of course this my opinion and point of view, let us discuss how true it is and hear your opinions too.

This was essentially how I understood it. Obviously I don't know for sure because he is a fade spirit but I would imagine that if Anders was able to remove him, Justice might very well return to the way he was before and perhaps have less of a bias towards mages but still see many of the actions of the Templar Order as unjust. Anders on the other hand would probably feel a much greater impact from the time they spent together -like now having to deal with the after events and emotional state from his time in Kirkwall. I also got the impression (and this could be wrong) that merging with Justice is what made him seem more morose, like Justice was just this constant heavy presence in his mind all the time. Due to this, I doubt he could go back to Anders from awakening but I do think without Justice his personality would change drastically. If he and Justice hadn't done the big daddy version of the Vulcan mind meld I think Anders actions in Kirkwall would have been very different.