46 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, those who are genuinely like me could probably be persuaded to cross over.

 

 

 

I doubt it. You're quick to concede arguments, but not positions that birth them. Templar!Xilizhra would accept the abject surrender of mages who do not resist, tranquilize the rebelious on grounds as a preferable alternative to execution, and kill the rest in the name of destroying the mages as an organized faction with an intent to marginalize and render politically impotent any who disagree, their views deemed discredited and not to be entertained any more than absolutely necessary.

 

'Compromise' from you has often meant 'others coming to view things I do, without changing my position.'
 

 

 

Given that your interpretation of prior dirty laundry has no place in this thread, I will say only that I have no position of power IRL and was referring solely to my PCs.

 

 

 

A history of your moral compromises has every relevance when you raise a claim of uncompromising morality. Which is what 'I can avoid crossing the line' entails: the idea that you can be trusted to uphold a moral principle and not cross it.

 

You (and I do mean you, because you regularly speak for yourself rather than raise any characters as a counter-view) routinely exhibit factionalistic ethics where good and evil are heavily determined by who is doing them. That is a completely unsound basis from which to authoritatively claim you can be relied upon to not cross a moral principle, because you routinely rationaliz different standards for different groups committing similar crimes in a way that reflects your predisposition to that group.

 

Your are not a person whose ethics and positions reflect strongly held moral principles. You are a person who identifies morality is dominated by the sympathies you have to the groups you self-identify with. This is a completely valid perspective, but one woefully weak for claims that others can trust you to not cross a line of principle.

 

 

If you don't wish to be measured, don't raise yourself up to be measured. Raise someone who is not you ('my mage wouldn't cross the line')... but then be prepared for them to be met with skepticism as well. Claiming to live up to a principle is easy: living up to it is something else.

[Xilizhra]

The idea isn't that one faction or another is inherently good or evil out of some arbitrary quality, but rather what their end goals are. The same action can be considered more or less evil depending on what one's reason for doing it and what they hope the end result will be; for instance, shooting someone in the head is generally considered less evil if they're trying to kill someone else at the time than if they weren't. Similarly, I would call it more morally questionable to kill someone while prosecuting a war where you're on the aggressive side, as opposed to being on the defensive side, which is more or less the situation with the mages.

 

Obviously, it's possible for a faction with noble end goals to act in such a way that it compromises them and does more damage than is justifiable, in which case I'm clearly against that. This is very frequently the case for, say, Renegade options in Mass Effect (at least for me, where my goal is to preserve all life in good conditions to the extent that it's possible).

[Dean_the_Young]

The idea isn't that one faction or another is inherently good or evil out of some arbitrary quality, but rather what their end goals are. The same action can be considered more or less evil depending on what one's reason for doing it and what they hope the end result will be; for instance, shooting someone in the head is generally considered less evil if they're trying to kill someone else at the time than if they weren't. Similarly, I would call it more morally questionable to kill someone while prosecuting a war where you're on the aggressive side, as opposed to being on the defensive side, which is more or less the situation with the mages.

 

Obviously, it's possible for a faction with noble end goals to act in such a way that it compromises them and does more damage than is justifiable, in which case I'm clearly against that. This is very frequently the case for, say, Renegade options in Mass Effect (at least for me, where my goal is to preserve all life in good conditions to the extent that it's possible).

 

If you actually applied that in any consistent way, I would believe you followed that. But you don't- you frequently admit to having no actual plan or end-state in mind for the actual achievement or implementation of noble goals, don't openly balance the costs incurred but ignore or handwave them, and consistently favor certain groups you identify with over those that you don't.

 

You aren't a greater good ethics sort of person, nor are you exceptionally noble in your end goals. Not if your past advocations of ethnic cleansing, indifference to majority dissent, and totalitarian controls for your utopias for your chosen peoples of the hour are any indication.

[Xilizhra]

If you actually applied that in any consistent way, I would believe you followed that. But you don't- you frequently admit to having no actual plan or end-state in mind for the actual achievement or implementation of noble goals, don't openly balance the costs incurred but ignore or handwave them, and consistently favor certain groups you identify with over those that you don't.

 

You aren't a greater good ethics sort of person, nor are you exceptionally noble in your end goals. Not if your past advocations of ethnic cleansing, indifference to majority dissent, and totalitarian controls for your utopias for your chosen peoples of the hour are any indication.

You are entitled to your opinion, but this thread isn't about me and the mods will probably thwack us both for off-topic posting.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Justice was loathsome well before the merger with Anders.

 

 

The Dalish have it right: no spirit is a "good" spirit.

[Dean_the_Young]

You are entitled to your opinion, but this thread isn't about me and the mods will probably thwack us both for off-topic posting.

 

I suggest you don't raise your moral fortitude as a point in discusion again, then. People may find it less convincing than you'd like.

 

 Justice was loathsome well before the merger with Anders.

 

 

The Dalish have it right: no spirit is a "good" spirit.

 

I agree with this- IIRC it was a spirit of Valor in the Mage Origin who was our first encounter with the type. It was open to helping you, but the fact that it demanded you engage it in single combat to your potential death quickly convinced me it was more interested in fulfilling its aspect than helping in general.

 

 

 

 

And in other news,

[Kirrahe1]

Justice was loathsome well before the merger with Anders.
 
 
The Dalish have it right: no spirit is a "good" spirit.

Why did you find him loathsome? I thought he was a sort of interesting!
Not wanting to argue or fight, just curious about why you didn't particularly like him.

[CybAnt1]

It can be difficult to deal with something that is essentially an embodiment of an abstract principle. (That's true of all spirits, not just Justice.)

 

Entities committed to singular devotion to a principle are not known for their flexibility. 

 

As I've noted before, the "benevolent" spirits rarely involve themselves in human affairs; the Spirits of Compassion appear to be the rare exception, being willing to aid Spirit Healers. 

 

I don't think Justice would have stuck with us in Awakening, were it not forced out of the Fade and into Kristoff's body. 

[CybAnt1]

BTW, I do think the spirits do differ from the demons. In a key way. Just by looking at their nature, forget what the Chantry teaches. 

 

Pride, Desire, Sloth, Hunger, and Rage are mostly negative emotions.... feelings, instincts, usually based around selfishness: egotism, laziness, lust, gluttony, anger. 

 

Valor, Justice, Compassion, Hope, and Faith are mostly principles ... abstract ideals ... that usually involve going beyond the needs of the self. They are more than just emotions, they require a certain conception to advance. Justice is not an emotion; you have to think of what it means, and define it, as an abstract ideal or pursuit; you can't just feel it. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 The Dalish have it right: no spirit is a "good" spirit.

I'd argue the spirit Faith is a good spirit, willing to stay in a human body not only for Wynne but now Evangeline to keep living.

[Kirrahe1]

It can be difficult to deal with something that is essentially an embodiment of an abstract principle. (That's true of all spirits, not just Justice.)
 
Entities committed to singular devotion to a principle are not known for their flexibility. 
 
As I've noted before, the "benevolent" spirits rarely involve themselves in human affairs; the Spirits of Compassion appear to be the rare exception, being willing to aid Spirit Healers. 
 
I don't think Justice would have stuck with us in Awakening, were it not forced out of the Fade and into Kristoff's body.

I would imagine that crossing over into the human world and staying for a very long amount of time would be a concern for any spirit because it isn't exactly well traveled territory for them. Also Demons are always trying to get into our hood so as a spirit who reviles Demons there might be a worry that the longer he stays the more our world could potentially corrupt him (which I suppose it did in a round about way.)
I agree with you, I doubt he would have stayed and really why would he want to? Their lack of flexibility may also be the thing that would want to make unwilling to leave and if I was devoted to a single concept I probably wouldn't be very open minded about adventuring with some punk who showed up in the fade and accidentally dragged me to a new world lol!
This isn't Exactly relevant but have you seen Wardens Fall? It's about Kristoff before Justice and it's pretty interesting.

[Arcanis]

I think the main problem is that the fade is fundamentally different from the materiel world.

In the fade the spirits can change their form and environment, and thus they are more defined through

a virtue (or vice). But the realm of the mortals is the exact opposite: The physics are absolute laws,

while virtues are no longer clear defined.

EVERY virtue and EVERY vice is within a mortal mind, we choice our path depending on knowledge,

experiences and the constraints of the environment (to simplify it =P) but this something spirits don't

understand.

Thus when a spirit possesses a thinking body it is "corrupted" through the personality of the host and

the (theoretically) absolute virtue becomes limited by the perspective of the host.

 

I suspect it happens to demons too.

Someone desires usually what s/he lacks - so a desire abomination will do different things if the host was a

lonely circle mage instead of a popular keeper (who may have desired knowledge of the Elvhen)

[wcholcombe]

I think the main problem is that the fade is fundamentally different from the materiel world.

In the fade the spirits can change their form and environment, and thus they are more defined through

a virtue (or vice). But the realm of the mortals is the exact opposite: The physics are absolute laws,

while virtues are no longer clear defined.

EVERY virtue and EVERY vice is within a mortal mind, we choice our path depending on knowledge,

experiences and the constraints of the environment (to simplify it =P) but this something spirits don't

understand.

Thus when a spirit possesses a thinking body it is "corrupted" through the personality of the host and

the (theoretically) absolute virtue becomes limited by the perspective of the host.

 

I suspect it happens to demons too.

Someone desires usually what s/he lacks - so a desire abomination will do different things if the host was a

lonely circle mage instead of a popular keeper (who may have desired knowledge of the Elvhen)

See here now is one of the difference between Anders/Wynne and all the abominations we have met.  In Wynne the spirit is almost entirely subjugated to the will of Wynne, in Anders there is a battle going on that may be Anders and Justice or may just be Anders own internal termoil.  In demon Abominations it is clearly indicated, that when a mage is possessed, all of a sudden there is nothing of who the mage was that remains, except that the demon has the mages memories and knowledge.  "One slip thats all it takes, one slip and everything you are is simply gone-replaced by madness."

[Hellion Rex]

See here now is one of the difference between Anders/Wynne and all the abominations we have met.  In Wynne the spirit is almost entirely subjugated to the will of Wynne, in Anders there is a battle going on that may be Anders and Justice or may just be Anders own internal termoil.  In demon Abominations it is clearly indicated, that when a mage is possessed, all of a sudden there is nothing of who the mage was that remains, except that the demon has the mages memories and knowledge.  "One slip thats all it takes, one slip and everything you are is simply gone-replaced by madness."

I disagree on the case of Wynne. There is no domination, it is a symbiotic relationship.

[AresKeith]

So if what I think is right Justice's transformation to Vengeance is always temporary and linked to anger. Vengeance as a form does not exist as default. Its always Justice in normal situations.

 

Pretty sure the transformation is permanent because of how long he was with Anders

[wcholcombe]

I disagree on the case of Wynne. There is no domination, it is a symbiotic relationship.

Wynne is always in control though.  Subjugation may be the wrong word, but the spirit is simply their in a support role.  Wynne's personality wasn't drastically altered by the spirits presence nor was the spirit in any way we can tell altered by Wynne.  It was just there.

[wcholcombe]

Pretty sure the transformation is permanent because of how long he was with Anders

We actually don't know that Justice was truly transformed to Vengeance.  We have conjecture to that.  In reality vengeance could be a permanent transformation, it could be caused by the taint in Anders, it could just be a result of the amalgamation of Anders and Justice, it could be a by product of anders own issues being revealed through Justice, or it could be something affecting Justice that as soon as he is freed from Anders is no longer present.

 

I am currently leaning to Vengeance being a result of the absolute sensory overload all of Anders emotions in Kirkwall must have been for Justice and therefore as soon as he is released form said turmoil he will come back to his own senses.

[pallascedar]

Well that is a very good line, in modern times...
 
In medieval times and Thedas for that matter most of the times Justice is Vengeance. Murdering Arl Howe as Cousland, Killing son of arl of Denerim as city elf etc... All of these acts are Justice and Vengeance both. There is no prison for them to go, only dungeons of nobility. Justice or Vengeance are both double edged swords and can always hurt oneself too, hence the possible outcome of Anders dying.

Nah, there is a fine line between vengeance and justice, but there is one. In my mind, Vengeance is more distinctly personal. It has more to do with fulfilling one's own desires than righting a wrong. It's a fine line to walk though.

[Arcanis]

Nah, there is a fine line between vengeance and justice, but there is one. In my mind, Vengeance is more distinctly personal. It has more to do with fulfilling one's own desires than righting a wrong. It's a fine line to walk though.

 

I agree - more or less.

But I think Justice is still Justice.

The spirit pushes Anders to a more active role, yes, but it is still

"justice" he is doing. Anders is getting pushed to work harder towards this goal.

BUT the main problem is, this is not OUR justice but Anders' justice.

The spirit sees the world through Anders eyes and mind, he demands the justice

he can grasp within this limits - and this justice is nothing more than Anders vengeance.

 

If I think about it, Justice tries to fulfill his ethos, but Anders opinion and view makes

Justice believe this mad vengence is in fact the "justice" for this world.

 

And about Wynne:

Her resident is Faith, and she believes in the Circle, the greater good - but also

wants a better life for her fellow mages and she thinks she can convince everybody

of what is best. She has FAITH in this idea, this goal and all the spirit does is strengthen this

faith.

I personally think she is wrong - but I fear that the spirit of Faith will make it impossible for

anyone to convince her of any problems or error in her way. Why?

Because I believe she is blinded by faith - but of course this is just one

interpretation =) 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Why did you find him loathsome? I thought he was a sort of interesting!
Not wanting to argue or fight, just curious about why you didn't particularly like him.

 

He was interesting, and loathsome, IMO. I hated him for the right reasons -- for ideological issues, not for story or immersion issues.

 

In short, I thought he was a moral hypocrite, in more ways than one. I am also not convinced that Anders' hate really turned him into a demon. I've always believed the line between justice and vengeance is a very fine one, and Justice in DA:A never displayed the restraint necessary to keep from crossing it.

[Lulupab]

Wynne is always in control though.  Subjugation may be the wrong word, but the spirit is simply their in a support role.  Wynne's personality wasn't drastically altered by the spirits presence nor was the spirit in any way we can tell altered by Wynne.  It was just there.

 

Well I don't think Wynne and Faith shared what Anders and Justice did. Anders was not an abomination, not by definition, when he merged with Justice both of them ceased to be. Anders is a whole different person now and neither old Justice nor old Anders exist anymore. Its more like an egg-sperm situation really, none of them exist anymore but you can see signs of them in the new being. Its how I see it anyway. Can't say what happens when Anders die and Justice is free again. I think it will be the Justice we know, he already is. He only changes to Vengeance cause of anger. Or perhaps there is a way to do that without Anders dying. Rivain seers will have all the answers, that is if Anders goes there.

 

Wynne was... Wynne. There was no difference at all in her after faith, none that we know of. Maybe its because of the fact that Wynne is dead. Don't know really but Anders and Wynne are completely different in this regard.

[Kirrahe1]

Rivain seers will have all the answers, that is if Anders goes there.

I don't know if you have extra information I'm missing but what makes you think they would have all the answers? I know they can be posed by spirits who give them knowledge about things but Justice himself was a spirit and didn't seem sure about a lot of subjects. I'm honestly asking and not trying to sound aggressive

Also when Justice becomes vengeance does that mean there wasn't a vengeance spirit/demon before? Or maybe if Justice does go back to the fade two different individuals will end up there. The original justice and the newly created Vengeance (not that vengeance is a new concept )