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Shin Megami Tensei: Persona Discussion Thread (Persona 5 Gameplay is out! Dance All Night releases June 26th in Japan)


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#4101
TheChris92

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A very enlightening read, Grey! I definitely share the appeal of her proactive role in the group and her subtle portrayal of her as an individual.
 
I can see you put time and thought into this, and hopefully you'll find the time to write about the other characters as well.

I agree with this, in fact, I've basically considered implementing some thoughts into the characters as well, though it'll tie nicely into the discussion of the Arcana anyway. Naoto is my favorite Persona character too, alongside Minako anyway, which has been evident for a while to most in this thread I imagine. Partially due to her situation being very relevant to the persistent issues of stereotypical oppressive delusions that society places upon the topic of gender -- In a lot of ways, her issues mirrors Kanji's from the female spectrum, which I'd love to talk a bit about myself, whenever I finish writing anyway.


Thanks for posting some interesting thoughts into her character, Grey -- Chewin, hook me up when you feel like you wanna try a round in Ultimax.
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#4102
Chewin

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Considering how relevant each character's persona are in reflecting several behaviors, putting your thoughts on their characterization along with the importance of the Arcanas are quite paramount indeed.

 

This thread (or from the little I've gathered) seem to view highly of Minako, so me replaying P3 will mostly be due to viewing it through her eyes. Looking forward to it, once I get around.

 

I'll certainly give you a notification in Ultimax. Most likely tomorrow if you are free. :)


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#4103
CrazyRah

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Oh yeah Minako is without a single doubt my favorite protagonist of the ones I've been able to play with. Yu and Minato are not even close!

 

I could perhaps write a longer post about Yukiko at some point, we'll see. I'm rather lazy in that regard and only really write when given an incentive strong enough


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#4104
Chewin

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Well I hope you find that incentive of yours, cause you do have great points when you put your mind to it.
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#4105
TheChris92

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Everybody needs to write something!
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#4106
Mr.House

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Tatsuya and Maya are still the best.

 

/P2s only fan in the thread


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#4107
TheChris92

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Tatsuya and Maya are still the best.

Said one guy in the entire world.
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#4108
Puzzlewell

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Tatsuya and Maya are still the best.

 

/P2s only fan in the thread

 

You know that's just cause I don't post too much around here. <3 But I adore P2 as well. :3



#4109
AventuroLegendary

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Y'all just need Door-kun! Let him into your heart!



#4110
Mr.House

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Y'all just need Door-kun! Let him into your heart!

Rather have Door-chan.


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#4111
CrazyRah

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Rather have Door-chan.

 

All praise supreme door-chan!



#4112
GreyLycanTrope

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Thanks guys, Chie is next on the list for me. Just not sure when I'll be able to get around to her.



#4113
CrazyRah

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Incentive was found, I wanted to love best P4 gurl and thinking more about something so enjoyable as P4 is always a good thing. Got to get back into it soon and refresh my memory of a few things.

 

This is pretty much a first part if I ever write more but there are absolutely without a doubt a ton more that one could talk about Yukiko and any of the other characters

 

Spoiler


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#4114
Dominus

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Everybody needs to write something!

My knowledge of the characters and storyline isn't nearly to the same echelon everyone else has been putting out. It's all made for a very good read, though. My personal analytics are likely best saved for P5.

Re-Initiating Lurk-And-Like Mode. *Copies and Pastes Crazy's Info* >_>
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#4115
Mr.House

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Best girl is Naoto and Yukari you plebs.


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#4116
Dominus

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Well it's hardly an analysis, but I can put in a few bits.

I think the first time Persona impressed me in terms of characterization was in P3. I'd met Junpei, and originally thought "Well, there's my new least favorite character". I like Comedians, but he came off as more of a sleazeball who tries a bit too hard - the kind of guy I wouldn't let my daughter date if I ever had one. But I was impressed later on when they portrayed him in a more meaningful light - Scenes that involved monologues of his Raison d'etre, the moments with(or after?) Chidori, and his stunning finale battling Darth Vader and the Emperor Arcana.

Atlus has a knack in the Persona Series with taking your perception of a particular character, and turning it on its head. I'd say that's especially true for Persona 4, which packs a thematic punch in the TV World. For those looking for interesting characters, Persona will renovate your ass.
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#4117
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Well it's hardly an analysis, but I can put in a few bits.

I think the first time Persona impressed me in terms of characterization was in P3. I'd met Junpei, and originally thought "Well, there's my new least favorite character". I like Comedians, but he came off as more of a sleazeball who tries a bit too hard - the kind of guy I wouldn't let my daughter date if I ever had one. But I was impressed later on when they portrayed him in a more meaningful light - Scenes that involved monologues of his Raison d'etre, the moments with(or after?) Chidori, and his stunning finale battling Darth Vader and the Emperor Arcana.

Atlus has a knack in the Persona Series with taking your perception of a particular character, and turning it on its head. I'd say that's especially true for Persona 4, which packs a thematic punch in the TV World. For those looking for interesting characters, Persona will renovate your ass.

More importantly, because who cares about great characterization, your waifu is Yukari/Yukiko right? Don't be a casual and side with the popular opinion, Dom.



#4118
Dominus

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For Persona 3, I rather like Mitsuru. A Mature business woman who has a bit of a wild side hidden within. On the superficial side, I've always had a thing for redheads - especially darker red hair.

Persona 4, I'd originally gone with Chie, but I will admit... Naoto has her intrigue. Can't say I'm interested in an easy-to-walk-in relationship, and she's certainly not that. Naoto's intelligent, dependable, and a whole list of other things Grey listed far more articulately on the last page. If I were a woman, I'd probably go for Kanji. I like personalities that can touch on both sides of a spectrum - in this case, Masculinity and Femininity.

#4119
TheChris92

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Well, I promised Chewin I'd do an indepth analysis of Persona 4, but now that everybody has shared their thoughts and feelings in regards to the individual characters, I feel like I want to contribute as well. Grey has already written for Naoto, so I'll save her for another time and talk about Kanji Tatsumi as well.

 

I think, Kanji, as a character reflects the echoing meaning behind the term "don't judge a book by its cover" quite nicely -- His characterization is nothing if not incredibly engaging, despite the initial preconceived image one might have of him, he is anything but that; He looks like a punk, who'll eat you for breakfast if you look at him the wrong way, and the game initial subtly draws him as such to throw your perceptions off. It relates to the overall theme of the game, never settling for half-truths, only looking at what we want to see, looking beyond the fog for the truth.

 

This brings me to the next point, and another larger reason why I felt it be relevant to talk about him -- Kanji is as misunderstood by the people in the game, as he is by the audience who plays the game. He's referred to as an example of a "gay character" in games, on many occasions as a "negative" example. Specifically by public figures, such as Anthony Burch (writer of Borderlands 2) who heavily criticized how the game handled the character, by having his sexuality be ambigious -- Some dislike the notion of stereotypes in regards to the mannerisms of Shadow Kanji, or the idea "Kanji liking men" as a source of laughter and ridicule.

Clearly, the conclusion I drew from that is that Mr. Burch hadn't played the same game I had.

Kanji is a considerate and gentle soul, who is definitely not homosexual at all.

 

Why? Because it is not relevant to his character, and that's not the issue he's facing in the game -- His attraction to Naoto, where her gender was still unclear to most of the characters, aren't based around her being a guy, as it is revealed inside his dungeon. It's something else entirely, even when Naoto's actual gender is revealed, the attraction doesn't stop which arguably should be enough to prove the case but I might as well go the extra mile.

 

To paraphrase Kanji himself, from inside the T.V “It ain’t a matter of guys and chicks…." The functions of the T.V. World skewers preconceptions of its subjects -- People see only what they want to see, because it's easier that way to prevent from getting hurt in the end.

His Shadow is incredibly flamboyant and forward with the guys, but at this point, we are unaware of the TV World's machinations, but we're also not entirely sure how to frame Kanji yet. It relates to the deception that exists in the fog, because the TV world is the world of fog, the world where mankind's desires are manifested. 

 

The problem is not that Kanji is gay, the problem is that Anthony Burch, the NPCs in the game, and other critics, want him to be gay because that way it's easier to live with the image of a young man who likes sewing, cute animals, and is just a generally gentle and sweet, caring, soul. 

Sure, the idea could have been fun and paved way for some interesting character interactions, though possibly jokes at his expense too, but I like to think that Atlus isn't that low (Erica from Catherine is an example of my faith in them).

It could shed positive light on the concept of gay characters in gaming, but the thing is that I don't believe that is how it should be treated for a game.

Sexuality needs to make sense for the story being told, it shouldn't be the frame of which your draw and write from.

I believe that prejudice feelings can be laid aside, if is not treated as an agenda and a statement, because for some it is not something that should be shouted to the world for it to be taken seriously.

Atlus should not get punishment for something they haven't done.

 

Kanji's issues do not relate to sexuality you see.. but to gender, gender roles to be precise.

 

Persona 4 wants to convey a message but not a message in regards to Kanji being a gay or not.

 

The game doesn't dwell on that issue

 

The game, however, wants to talk about gender and it can all be easily summarized in one particular quote that Shadow Kanji utters before the boss battle.

 

114-eCSFCPw.pngThey look at me like some...some disgusting THING and say that I'm a weirdo...Laughing at me, all the while! "You like to sew? What a queer!" "Painting is so not you." "But you're a guy..." "You don't act like a guy..." "Why aren't you manly...?" What does it mean to be "a guy?" What does it mean to be "manly?"

 

Exactly what does it mean to be a guy? The line that defines the character that is Kanji Tatsumi, and is also explored in his social link, in the form of a single favor he does for a little boy -- He utilizes his talents of sewing to make a cute animal plushie for the boy's sister, which is contrary to what Kanji expected, met with gratitude and appreciation from the boy. Certain secrets are also revealed to us -- Kanji's father passed away, and it's clear that Kanji misses him, he dwells on something his father told him. He wanted him to 'be strong' because he could no longer be there to fill that role.

It drives Kanji to act like a man, as he originally thinks that's what he wanted. Be a man, and protect his mother.

 

All of the taunts and painful truths being spewed at Kanji in regards to manliness hits on a sore-spot for him. For all of the supposed tough guy act, leather jacket, bleached hair, scar and rebellious attitude, Kanji has no clue what exactly it means "to be a man".

 

At first it's easy to think that Kanji is overcompensating the concept of "manliness", in which we always connect with heterosexuality.

Although, in truth, the story is actually quite different from how its presented. 

Examining the quote above, and we'll understand that Kanji's issues stems from the cruel disdain he had to endure from the girls of Inaba.

In a somewhat predictable fashion, in regards to the awful misleading stereotypes that society creates, they associate Kanji's hobbies with that of being gay.

He enjoys sewing, cute animals and crafts -- Things that are distinguished as "queer" for a guy to do.

 

In other words, Kanji has to be gay, according to the girls of Yasoinaba, as it doesn't conform with the image of how a guy is supposed to be like. 

To put it mildly, Kanji's characterization is a healthy cognitive image of society's distorted idea of Gender and Sexuality.

 

In our world, what people fears the most, are the things they don't understand. They need frames of reference, categorization in order for the world to make sense and feel safe. Good and Evil -- You are either this or you're that.. The tendentious skewered view of the Third world. There is no middle ground here.

You're either gay or you're straight.

Females like to sew, go shopping, painting and men are self-concious alphas who are always in control of their lives, likes sports and beat up other guys to prove their status. 

The individual is non-existent, you're choices are being picked for you from this understanding alone. Society in the shape of a TV world decides how you should act and look like. It's a social consensus. 

 

Kanji has to be gay, because society labels him as gay, not because of any actual attraction towards guys.

Kanji's search for self-discovery and fulfillment reveals the ugly truth behind the mask -- We are all slaves to pre-conceived fabrications manifested by societal norms. Categories determine how we define people as people.

 

In accordance with how the game wants us to interpret things -- Sexuality, is by its faux-definition, defined by others. It's not thing you something which you have a hand in as it is assigned based around how you are supposed to act and be like as a person.

 

As I've already basically said at this point though -- The truth all along is that the illusions created on the TV are deceptive discernments created in the minds of people itself. Yukiko was the captured princess, Chie is the Dominatrix, Naoto the Detective Prince, Yosuke the bored city-boy, Teddie the empty husk etc.

 

57-EN7s0S9.pngWhat's so bad about doing what I want to do?

 

Kanji's true feelings is the fear of being rejected for who he is -- It is his lack of knowlegde of knowing "what it means to be a man" that sets him on the path to act tough and keep up the "manly" exterior, so people would think higher of him and perhaps accept him. That is the heart of this wonderful character. His revelation is that he's found friends in the Investigation Team, in the protagonist, who accepts him for who he is. Kanji decides for himself, that what his father probably meant, was the shouldn't be afraid to be honest about being himself -- That's where he decides to start. He's ready to be himself, and instead of letting people stop to think something different of him, he pursues to make them understand him because that way they'll be ready to accept him.


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#4120
Milan92

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I feel obligated to do a piece about Rise now, but I'll see if I can find the words first. :P



#4121
TheChris92

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Good! That way Dom can write something about Chie and Reezy about Teddie (voiced by Wittenberg)

#4122
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For Persona 3, I rather like Mitsuru. A Mature business woman who has a bit of a wild side hidden within. On the superficial side, I've always had a thing for redheads - especially darker red hair.

Persona 4, I'd originally gone with Chie, but I will admit... Naoto has her intrigue. Can't say I'm interested in an easy-to-walk-in relationship, and she's certainly not that. Naoto's intelligent, dependable, and a whole list of other things Grey listed far more articulately on the last page. If I were a woman, I'd probably go for Kanji. I like personalities that can touch on both sides of a spectrum - in this case, Masculinity and Femininity.

I actually was going to ask if your waifu was Kanji at first too. He's great.



#4123
Mr.House

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Everyones waifu was Kanji in P4.


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#4124
GreyLycanTrope

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Rah I hope you don't mind if I use your post for a jumping off point for when I get around to Yukiko. You covered certain aspects like the caged bird motif pretty well and I just don't have much more to add that wouldn't be repeating what you've already said.

 

For Persona 3, I rather like Mitsuru. A Mature business woman who has a bit of a wild side hidden within. On the superficial side, I've always had a thing for redheads - especially darker red hair.

Persona 4, I'd originally gone with Chie, but I will admit... Naoto has her intrigue. Can't say I'm interested in an easy-to-walk-in relationship, and she's certainly not that. Naoto's intelligent, dependable, and a whole list of other things Grey listed far more articulately on the last page. If I were a woman, I'd probably go for Kanji. I like personalities that can touch on both sides of a spectrum - in this case, Masculinity and Femininity.

Chie was actually the original romance for me as well, one of the reasons she's next on the list. Kinda feel like she's underrated at times.

 

Everyones waifu was Kanji in P4.

Funky student though. :wub:


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#4125
GreyLycanTrope

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Well, I promised Chewin I'd do an indepth analysis of Persona 4, but now that everybody has shared their thoughts and feelings in regards to the individual characters, I feel like I want to contribute as well. Grey has already written for Naoto, so I'll save her for another time and talk about Kanji Tatsumi as well.

 

I think, Kanji, as a character reflects the echoing meaning behind the term "don't judge a book by its cover" quite nicely -- His characterization is nothing if not incredibly engaging, despite the initial preconceived image one might have of him, he is anything but that; He looks like a punk, who'll eat you for breakfast if you look at him the wrong way, and the game initial subtly draws him as such to throw your perceptions off. It relates to the overall theme of the game, never settling for half-truths, only looking at what we want to see, looking beyond the fog for the truth.

 

This brings me to the next point, and another larger reason why I felt it be relevant to talk about him -- Kanji is as misunderstood by the people in the game, as he is by the audience who plays the game. He's referred to as an example of a "gay character" in games, on many occasions as a "negative" example. Specifically by public figures, such as Anthony Burch (writer of Borderlands 2) who heavily criticized how the game handled the character, by having his sexuality be ambigious -- Some dislike the notion of stereotypes in regards to the mannerisms of Shadow Kanji, or the idea "Kanji liking men" as a source of laughter and ridicule.

Clearly, the conclusion I drew from that is that Mr. Burch hadn't played the same game I had.

Kanji is a considerate and gentle soul, who is definitely not homosexual at all.

 

Why? Because it is not relevant to his character, and that's not the issue he's facing in the game -- His attraction to Naoto, where her gender was still unclear to most of the characters, aren't based around her being a guy, as it is revealed inside his dungeon. It's something else entirely, even when Naoto's actual gender is revealed, the attraction doesn't stop which arguably should be enough to prove the case but I might as well go the extra mile.

 

To paraphrase Kanji himself, from inside the T.V “It ain’t a matter of guys and chicks…." The functions of the T.V. World skewers preconceptions of its subjects -- People see only what they want to see, because it's easier that way to prevent from getting hurt in the end.

His Shadow is incredibly flamboyant and forward with the guys, but at this point, we are unaware of the TV World's machinations, but we're also not entirely sure how to frame Kanji yet. It relates to the deception that exists in the fog, because the TV world is the world of fog, the world where mankind's desires are manifested. 

 

The problem is not that Kanji is gay, the problem is that Anthony Burch, the NPCs in the game, and other critics, want him to be gay because that way it's easier to live with the image of a young man who likes sewing, cute animals, and is just a generally gentle and sweet, caring, soul. 

Sure, the idea could have been fun and paved way for some interesting character interactions, though possibly jokes at his expense too, but I like to think that Atlus isn't that low (Erica from Catherine is an example of my faith in them).

It could shed positive light on the concept of gay characters in gaming, but the thing is that I don't believe that is how it should be treated for a game.

Sexuality needs to make sense for the story being told, it shouldn't be the frame of which your draw and write from.

I believe that prejudice feelings can be laid aside, if is not treated as an agenda and a statement, because for some it is not something that should be shouted to the world for it to be taken seriously.

Atlus should not get punishment for something they haven't done.

 

Kanji's issues do not relate to sexuality you see.. but to gender, gender roles to be precise.

 

Persona 4 wants to convey a message but not a message in regards to Kanji being a gay or not.

 

The game doesn't dwell on that issue

 

The game, however, wants to talk about gender and it can all be easily summarized in one particular quote that Shadow Kanji utters before the boss battle.

 

114-eCSFCPw.pngThey look at me like some...some disgusting THING and say that I'm a weirdo...Laughing at me, all the while! "You like to sew? What a queer!" "Painting is so not you." "But you're a guy..." "You don't act like a guy..." "Why aren't you manly...?" What does it mean to be "a guy?" What does it mean to be "manly?"

 

Exactly what does it mean to be a guy? The line that defines the character that is Kanji Tatsumi, and is also explored in his social link, in the form of a single favor he does for a little boy -- He utilizes his talents of sewing to make a cute animal plushie for the boy's sister, which is contrary to what Kanji expected, met with gratitude and appreciation from the boy. Certain secrets are also revealed to us -- Kanji's father passed away, and it's clear that Kanji misses him, he dwells on something his father told him. He wanted him to 'be strong' because he could no longer be there to fill that role.

It drives Kanji to act like a man, as he originally thinks that's what he wanted. Be a man, and protect his mother.

 

All of the taunts and painful truths being spewed at Kanji in regards to manliness hits on a sore-spot for him. For all of the supposed tough guy act, leather jacket, bleached hair, scar and rebellious attitude, Kanji has no clue what exactly it means "to be a man".

 

At first it's easy to think that Kanji is overcompensating the concept of "manliness", in which we always connect with heterosexuality.

Although, in truth, the story is actually quite different from how its presented. 

Examining the quote above, and we'll understand that Kanji's issues stems from the cruel disdain he had to endure from the girls of Inaba.

In a somewhat predictable fashion, in regards to the awful misleading stereotypes that society creates, they associate Kanji's hobbies with that of being gay.

He enjoys sewing, cute animals and crafts -- Things that are distinguished as "queer" for a guy to do.

 

In other words, Kanji has to be gay, according to the girls of Yasoinaba, as it doesn't conform with the image of how a guy is supposed to be like. 

To put it mildly, Kanji's characterization is a healthy cognitive image of society's distorted idea of Gender and Sexuality.

 

In our world, what people fears the most, are the things they don't understand. They need frames of reference, categorization in order for the world to make sense and feel safe. Good and Evil -- You are either this or you're that.. The tendentious skewered view of the Third world. There is no middle ground here.

You're either gay or you're straight.

Females like to sew, go shopping, painting and men are self-concious alphas who are always in control of their lives, likes sports and beat up other guys to prove their status. 

The individual is non-existent, you're choices are being picked for you from this understanding alone. Society in the shape of a TV world decides how you should act and look like. It's a social consensus. 

 

Kanji has to be gay, because society labels him as gay, not because of any actual attraction towards guys.

Kanji's search for self-discovery and fulfillment reveals the ugly truth behind the mask -- We are all slaves to pre-conceived fabrications manifested by societal norms. Categories determine how we define people as people.

 

In accordance with how the game wants us to interpret things -- Sexuality, is by its faux-definition, defined by others. It's not thing you something which you have a hand in as it is assigned based around how you are supposed to act and be like as a person.

 

As I've already basically said at this point though -- The truth all along is that the illusions created on the TV are deceptive discernments created in the minds of people itself. Yukiko was the captured princess, Chie is the Dominatrix, Naoto the Detective Prince, Yosuke the bored city-boy, Teddie the empty husk etc.

 

57-EN7s0S9.pngWhat's so bad about doing what I want to do?

 

Kanji's true feelings is the fear of being rejected for who he is -- It is his lack of knowlegde of knowing "what it means to be a man" that sets him on the path to act tough and keep up the "manly" exterior, so people would think higher of him and perhaps accept him. That is the heart of this wonderful character. His revelation is that he's found friends in the Investigation Team, in the protagonist, who accepts him for who he is. Kanji decides for himself, that what his father probably meant, was the shouldn't be afraid to be honest about being himself -- That's where he decides to start. He's ready to be himself, and instead of letting people stop to think something different of him, he pursues to make them understand him because that way they'll be ready to accept him.

Well put. For a game that puts a certain emphasis on you and your team needing to look beneath the surface of situations and people it often amazes me that some folks are willing to take Shadows at sheer face value and not look deeper into what they might represent. I'm looking at you Tumblr.


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