4593 réponses à ce sujet

[Terca]

I'd actually like to see Scathatch as a player Persona... Or Kaguya as an actual  fleshed Persona. Unfortunately, it looks like it is now the personal Persona of Marie. ;(

[Mr.House]

Which makes no sense as Marie can not use a persona. This was stated in Golden, she has her own powers so having a persona is moot, same reason she also can't have a shadow. Just more shoehorning and forgetting stuff to justify Marie-Sue on the roster.

 

Thankfully her role in the story is very small so I don';t have to deal with her crap.

[Terca]

Mhm. I really hope that the MC will have a chance to utilize their own 'standard persona' like Io for Yukari or Susanoo for Yosuke. When I was fusing personas in P4 they began to feel transient up until the later levels where I just used Beelze, Satan and Seigried FTW. At first I liked the personas I made but when it just became the ladder of trying to make the ultimate personas for each Arcana... They just became building blocks. Rightly so, one might say, but still seems off to me.

 

I'd like it if the MC in this game had a staple persona as well as those given by the wildcard, with the MC level dictating the persona level like for the MCs in P4 and P3. That's just me though

[Mr.House]

I am hoping the main persona is viable this time. Izanagi and Orpheus became useless very fast.

[Milan92]

Agreed.

 

I really liked Izanagi in terms of appearance and the fact that he is Yu's main persona, but he simply wasn't that great.

[TheChris92]

I can't say I agree whole heartedly -- Making certain Personas keep getting stronger defeats the purpose of the social link system. One has to remember that unlike the other party members, the protagonist is the Wild Card. It paints the picture of an individual who's set out on a journey, one filled with endless amounts of choices and paths to pick from. It's the number zero, empty but nevertheless free and able to become whole/complete, through the means of the individual's strong will to get ahead in life. 
The social link system exists to build upon that -- One who strengthens his own resolve through understanding of others. So the protagonist's social links become stronger and he/she gains access to more powerful personas.
Yes, some Personas are simply building blocks for other and more powerful types, but in retrospect, I think that's where the beautiful integrated relationship between gameplay and plot intertwines elegantly. It's sort of a metaphor on how we as people keep developing and we use our failures and success as stepping stones for the next stage. You might become an adult eventually but you'll never stop growing, that's for certain.
 
I could mention the example of

Spoiler

Aigis getting Orpheus in The Answer, for instance

-- It's meant to tell how Orpheus isn't necessarily a Persona bound to a person. His appearance is reflected upon the deeper meaning of his image, his story and how it relates to the character who wields him. The story of Orpheus in Greek Myth, tells of a poet/bard who'd infriltrate the underworld to retrieve his wife Eurydice from Hades -- In a sense, it's meant to symbolize Aigis struggle of trying to protect the protagonist and save him, while with the protagonist it's more the journey of life and his will to protect his friends

Spoiler

from getting killed by Nyx

that is his "Eurydice" he needs to save.
 
It also results in a very addictive system, filled to the brim with tons of different masks to pick from and develop. I like it that way -- Repeating what I said a few lines ago. It creates an addictive system and adds lots of replay valute to the game.
 
There are plenty of awesome Ultimate Personas in 3 & 4 to pick from regardless.

[TheChris92]

Crap, double post.

[Dominus]

A new article off of Kotaku deconstructs the new trailer.

Spoiler

The trailer opens with a shot of a train, specifically looking at the advertisements on the train.
 

Here is a translation for the ads.
"It happened again!? People are running away."
"Taxes are increasing again!? Could this be a controversy?"
"A popular personality has been suspected of tax evasion. Accused of hiding several million yen in income."
"An uproar broke out over an affair with the innocent schoolgirl idol. Officials involved in the matter are staying quite about the identity of her lover."
"Dark rumors are spreading about a major food chain's performance decreasing."
"There is a new M.O. for telephone fraud, this one of which targets the elderly."
"Threatening phone calls have been made to those who recently won the big lottery prize. Personal information has been distributed."
"A public prosecutor fights against falsified evidence!"
"Extensive bullying."
"Died in their room by an apparent strangling."
"A rapid succession of assaults has occurred."
"A dangerous car accident has recently been reported."
(Thanks to MysticDistance on Neogaf for the updated translation)

It's likely looking at these ads that things aren't looking so great in general in society at that moment as we don't see any positive ads at all, as well as quite a lot of the ads have a connection to social media. Any of these could potentially be connected to the plot and the overall themes of the game.

And next we are introduced to a boy on a train. The scene is evocative of the beginnings of Persona 3 and 4 where the protagonist began the game arriving by train in a similar fashion to this and suggesting this is the protagonist of Persona 5. Judging by his demeanor and appearance, we might assume he is introverted. He also has a fairly melancholy expression on his face throughout the trailer. Consider this quote from series director Katsura Hashino:

"In today's world there's no shortage of people that are bored or discontent with their lives. They're at a dead end, chained down to a world which they resent being a part. Persona 5, in that sense, is a game about freedom."

Next we get a shot of some girls on the train. They have different uniforms than our protagonist, so we can probably disregard them as potential characters.
 

Here we have our protagonist on the train in a school uniform. This looks like the uniform for a fairly strict school from the military motifs see on its design which could also play into the themes that Hashino has revealed the game concerns.

"The characters…are out to destroy that which suffocates people in today's society… I want players to come away from this game feeling they have the power to take on the world around them. - Katsura Hashino on Persona 5

Also of note it that he has two chevrons on his turtleneck as well as a two button on his lapel, meaning he will likely be in second year of high school. Overall the design of the character in my mind helps to reinforce the assumption of his introspective nature.

We cut to a scene off the train in what looks like Shibuya, Tokyo. This reveals the setting of the game in the big city, a contrast to the small town of Inaba in Persona 4. Now look to the very far right screen.

We see three quick cut-ins that look eerily like cut-in shown in battle when a party member scores a critical hit. Could these be a hint towards characters in the game?

Our protagonist is now off the train, cellphone in hand. If you look at the image above, notice each features at least one person on their cellphone. This suggests cellphone communication and texting will be a big part of the game, and if done in the vein of Catherine, a potentially exciting new part of building social links.

If we zoom in, we can see text on his uniform. My best guess is "Shujin High School". "Shujin" means prisoner in Japanese and this would certainly fit given the imagery we've seen so far of the game with the chains and the chairs. Perhaps this is a high level and high pressure prep school our protagonist attends?

And now we zoom at out and see the new logo for the game. It's almost evocative of a NASCAR logo in my opinion, so I'm not too sure if there's any deeper meaning behind its design.

We now see our protagonist in the midst of the crowd looking rather confused.

But more importantly for a split second, we see something easy to miss but potentially quite notable.
 

A girl in a scrunchy walks by very quickly across the frame. However, we can see she's a lot more detailed than the rest of the people shown walking by. Why would the animators put so much extra effort in animating this girl compared to the rest of the people (with the exception of the main character) and giving her a rather distinctive look? We can compare her face to the girls on the train car, and we can easily see scrunchy girl's face is much more detailed. In addition she's consistent with series character designer Shigenori Soejima's design style, which leads me to believe that she's mostly likely a character in the game and a likely party member.

Finally we get a shot of some flames in the crowd, suggesting something supernatural is happening that only our protagonist can see. Also on the centre video display we see an idol who looks a lot like Rise, which could be a fun call-back to the previous game.

And now to end the trailer we get an eye cut in shot of our protagonist. Notice in the flames we can see an ominous shape?
 

[AventuroLegendary]

Interesting article. It looks like good things can come out of Kotaku.

 

On the ads...

I may be misreading but wouldn't this play into a contrast with the theme of the previous game a bit? In Persona 4, people would see what they want to see and the news would get sugarcoated and superficial, where murders would degenerate into trivial gossip. Here, people are made more aware of outside problems, not necessarily affecting them, and feel that the ills that affect the rest of society are thrust upon them, creating an oppressive sense of powerlessness in the face of a larger world that surrounds any individual.

 

I'm not sure how the Japanese media handles things but American news media, in my opinion, tends to capitalize on tragedy more than fortune. Perhaps that is comparable?

[TheChris92]

Neat analysis -- I just loathe Kotaku to bother even clicking the link.

[TheChris92]

The last part is most likely his Persona awakening.

[TheChris92]

Interesting article. It looks like good things can come out of Kotaku.
 
On the ads...
I may be misreading but wouldn't this play into a contrast with the theme of the previous game a bit? In Persona 4, people would see what they want to see and the news would get sugarcoated and superficial, where murders would degenerate into trivial gossip. Here, people are made more aware of outside problems, not necessarily affecting them, and feel that the ills that affect the rest of society are thrust upon them, creating an oppressive sense of powerlessness in the face of a larger world that surrounds any individual.
 
I'm not sure how the Japanese media handles things but American news media, in my opinion, tends to capitalize on tragedy more than fortune. Perhaps that is comparable?

The general concept of Persona 4 was a discussion on humanity's tendency to always see or hear the things they want to hear. Like you said, the media delibarely manipulate the truth to serve the agenda they want to bring forth. In that sense, the TV World partially serves as a metaphor for people's desires and impressions of the world around them. Things and people would appear on the screen, shaped by the collective unconcious thought process of man-kind. The cast served as a contradiction to this -- They are the harbingers who'd break through the fog of ignorance and face life and its fallbacks head-on while moving foward.

Persona 5's theme is more revolved around the discontent feeling some people have with their own lives. How seemingly life tends to drag you, or in this case chain you, down -- I know the feeling myself, I know what I wanna do with myself, what I wanna work towards becoming, but I feel society is holding me back from accomplishing these dreams. Society is too busy dictating how people should behave, and how everything should be perceived. Were I to use a personal experience, I'd say that my dream of working in cinema has met with plenty of obstacles, such as my own government not provide funding support for that particular path, nor my homestead municipality, they largely can't even be bothered to connect me to people who can help me. It's a case of my own government chaining me down, telling me how I should go about things, I've been told before to seek other priorities but I know what it is I want to do.

It's about liberating yourself from these 'chains of expectation' placed upon you by society and come to realize the possibilities before you -- It also goes back to something I was talking about with an acquiantance once. One might note, if they live in the west or at best, in Europe, everytime you go to an exam you'd always get the same kind of encouragement needed to motivate you. "Best of luck". In Japan, in the east, they actually give a different moral booster "Do your best". Note the sharp differences between each, and take that into consideration when thinking about the theme of Persona 5 and the Japanese setting. It's easier to determine that society itself, especially in Japan, has higher hopes and expectations placed upon the individual.

[Mr.House]

Would be cool if it is a military school or a very strict prep school. Would make being another two year interesting.

[AventuroLegendary]

It's about liberating yourself from these 'chains of expectation' placed upon you by society and come to realize the possibilities before you -- It also goes back to something I was talking about with an acquiantance once. One might note, if they live in the west or at best, in Europe, everytime you go to an exam you'd always get the same kind of encouragement needed to motivate you. "Best of luck". In Japan, in the east, they actually give a different moral booster "Do your best". Note the sharp differences between each, and take that into consideration when thinking about the theme of Persona 5 and the Japanese setting. It's easier to determine that society itself, especially in Japan, has higher hopes and expectations placed upon the individual.

 

I was more or less referring to the specific topic of the news, and how its adherence to pessimism has the tendency to bring the psyche of individuals down, but I do agree with your post.

 

What I don't necessarily see, however, is that the "Do your best" mentality would be exclusive to the East. Often times, a stigma surrounding those working less than stellar jobs here in the States is that they didn't take the necessary steps to pursue their goals, earlier in life, and therefore deserve their current lot in life.

[The Elder King]

A new article off of Kotaku deconstructs the new trailer.

Spoiler

The trailer opens with a shot of a train, specifically looking at the advertisements on the train. 

Here is a translation for the ads."It happened again!? People are running away.""Taxes are increasing again!? Could this be a controversy?""A popular personality has been suspected of tax evasion. Accused of hiding several million yen in income.""An uproar broke out over an affair with the innocent schoolgirl idol. Officials involved in the matter are staying quite about the identity of her lover.""Dark rumors are spreading about a major food chain's performance decreasing.""There is a new M.O. for telephone fraud, this one of which targets the elderly.""Threatening phone calls have been made to those who recently won the big lottery prize. Personal information has been distributed.""A public prosecutor fights against falsified evidence!""Extensive bullying.""Died in their room by an apparent strangling.""A rapid succession of assaults has occurred.""A dangerous car accident has recently been reported."(Thanks to MysticDistance on Neogaf for the updated translation)It's likely looking at these ads that things aren't looking so great in general in society at that moment as we don't see any positive ads at all, as well as quite a lot of the ads have a connection to social media. Any of these could potentially be connected to the plot and the overall themes of the game.And next we are introduced to a boy on a train. The scene is evocative of the beginnings of Persona 3 and 4 where the protagonist began the game arriving by train in a similar fashion to this and suggesting this is the protagonist of Persona 5. Judging by his demeanor and appearance, we might assume he is introverted. He also has a fairly melancholy expression on his face throughout the trailer. Consider this quote from series director Katsura Hashino:"In today's world there's no shortage of people that are bored or discontent with their lives. They're at a dead end, chained down to a world which they resent being a part. Persona 5, in that sense, is a game about freedom."Next we get a shot of some girls on the train. They have different uniforms than our protagonist, so we can probably disregard them as potential characters. 

Here we have our protagonist on the train in a school uniform. This looks like the uniform for a fairly strict school from the military motifs see on its design which could also play into the themes that Hashino has revealed the game concerns."The characters…are out to destroy that which suffocates people in today's society… I want players to come away from this game feeling they have the power to take on the world around them. - Katsura Hashino on Persona 5Also of note it that he has two chevrons on his turtleneck as well as a two button on his lapel, meaning he will likely be in second year of high school. Overall the design of the character in my mind helps to reinforce the assumption of his introspective nature.We cut to a scene off the train in what looks like Shibuya, Tokyo. This reveals the setting of the game in the big city, a contrast to the small town of Inaba in Persona 4. Now look to the very far right screen.We see three quick cut-ins that look eerily like cut-in shown in battle when a party member scores a critical hit. Could these be a hint towards characters in the game?Our protagonist is now off the train, cellphone in hand. If you look at the image above, notice each features at least one person on their cellphone. This suggests cellphone communication and texting will be a big part of the game, and if done in the vein of Catherine, a potentially exciting new part of building social links.

If we zoom in, we can see text on his uniform. My best guess is "Shujin High School". "Shujin" means prisoner in Japanese and this would certainly fit given the imagery we've seen so far of the game with the chains and the chairs. Perhaps this is a high level and high pressure prep school our protagonist attends?And now we zoom at out and see the new logo for the game. It's almost evocative of a NASCAR logo in my opinion, so I'm not too sure if there's any deeper meaning behind its design.We now see our protagonist in the midst of the crowd looking rather confused.But more importantly for a split second, we see something easy to miss but potentially quite notable. 

A girl in a scrunchy walks by very quickly across the frame. However, we can see she's a lot more detailed than the rest of the people shown walking by. Why would the animators put so much extra effort in animating this girl compared to the rest of the people (with the exception of the main character) and giving her a rather distinctive look? We can compare her face to the girls on the train car, and we can easily see scrunchy girl's face is much more detailed. In addition she's consistent with series character designer Shigenori Soejima's design style, which leads me to believe that she's mostly likely a character in the game and a likely party member.Finally we get a shot of some flames in the crowd, suggesting something supernatural is happening that only our protagonist can see. Also on the centre video display we see an idol who looks a lot like Rise, which could be a fun call-back to the previous game.And now to end the trailer we get an eye cut in shot of our protagonist. Notice in the flames we can see an ominous shape? 

 
Thanks for posting it, Interesting speculation.
 

Would be cool if it is a military school or a very strict prep school. Would make being another two year interesting.

I'm not that much bothered by being a two year, but I agree on the first part.

[TheChris92]

I was more or less referring to the specific topic of the news, and how its adherence to pessimism has the tendency to bring the psyche of individuals down, but I do agree with your post.
 
What I don't necessarily see, however, is that the "Do your best" mentality would be exclusive to the East. Often times, a stigma surrounding those working less than stellar jobs here in the States is that they didn't take the necessary steps to pursue their goals, earlier in life, and therefore deserve their current lot in life.

You were quite clearly asking about the theme of Persona 5 and how it would contrast to that of Persona 4 -- I quite clearly answered that question based on what Hashino has said before. If what you asked were anything else then I'd argue you say so, or make a stronger of effort of elaborating on what you're wondering about.

The mentality is true, whether you don't see it. We are talking in general here -- In Japan you'll find that additionalpressure is set upon its country's students, not just from society's point of view, but also family, sexuality, and it it's partially due to the concept of honour. Something you'll find important in a lot of foreign cultures. Saki Konishi in Persona 4 could stand attest to this, for instance.

You can always argue there are people like this everywhere, we were all like this in Europe back in the early 19th century, where marriage was a priviledge and status symbol, and children would always follow their father's or mother's footsteps etc.

[Mr.House]

 
Thanks for posting it, Interesting speculation.
  I'm not that much bothered by being a two year, but I agree on the first part.

Eh after two games of being a second year I would prefer third year or first year(though I would much prefer a collage setting)

[TheChris92]

Eh after two games of being a second year I would prefer third year or first year(though I would much prefer a collage setting)

Agreed -- A change of pace would have been good.

EDIT: No one is saying it'll only span a year though.

[AventuroLegendary]

You were quite clearly asking about the theme of Persona 5 and how it would contrast to that of Persona 4 -- I quite clearly answered that question based on what Hashino has said before. If you what you asked were anything else then I'd argue you say so next time.

The mentality is true, whether you don't see it. We are talking in general here -- In Japan you'll find that additional pressure is set upon students, not just from society's point of view, but also family, it's partially due to the concept of honour and the need to please ones family. Saki Konishi in Persona 4 could stand attest to this, for instance.

You can always argue there are people like this everywhere, we were all like this in Europe back in the early 19th century, where marriage was a priviledge and status symbol, and children would always follow their father's or mother's footsteps etc.

 

Ah. I did refer to the vague idea of slavery (with prison symbolism), which isn't the theme so much as the broad motif supporting the theme.

 

What I argued in the second post, however, wasn't that the concept of "Do your best" doesn't exist. Rather that it speaks more broadly about the human condition in general rather than a specific culture, like Japan. It's just that Japan is arguably more open about it. People are categorized a family unit first and an individual second (surnames coming first, after all) which pertains to people like Saki and the need to bring honor to one's family.

 

Like I said previously, this also extends to the rest of the world today, to a degree. Even in history, it goes even farther back than the 19th century, where dynasties and clans would struggle to make a name for themselves and disregard the feelings of the heirs, like in Europe, the Middle East and in Central Asia . So I can agree with you there.

[The Elder King]

Eh after two games of being a second year I would prefer third year or first year(though I would much prefer a collage setting)

I'd like something different in age/setting as well, I'm just not that bothered by the same age. 

[TheChris92]

Ah. I did refer to the vague idea of slavery (with prison symbolism), which isn't the theme so much as the broad motif supporting the theme.
 
What I argued in the second post, however, wasn't that the concept of "Do your best" doesn't exist. Rather that it speaks more broadly about the human condition in general rather than a specific culture, like Japan. It's just that Japan is arguably more open about it. People are categorized a family unit first and an individual second (surnames coming first, after all) which pertains to people like Saki and the need to bring honor to one's family.
 
Like I said previously, this also extends to the rest of the world today, to a degree. Even in history, it goes even farther back than the 19th century, where dynasties and clans would struggle to make a name for themselves, like in Europe, the Middle East and in Central Asia . So I can agree with you there.

I know my history well enough, so while the reference is appreciated it is unnecessary -- The 19th century was but an example I utilized, because at the time (especially where I live) honour, status, religion and family was high on the agenda, if you were to make something of yourself, and thus made it relevant to the current topic of discussion.

"Do your best" is a phrase that alludes to a different meaning -- in this case it speaks about how expectations are set up as a higher priority over anything else. "Good luck" is an almost harmless and forgiving reassurance, where all the pressure is put aside and prioritized less than simply trying not to be nervous or feel like you "can't do it". It essentially refers to how differently we view our future or how much pressure we place upon ourselves and it. It can also be applied to the concept understanding of the Information Age we live in, that is to say if you wanna get real technical about it.
The digital society furthers human flaws and selectively rewards development of convenient half-truths -- One can simply snap a glimse look at the recurring juxtapositions of morality around all of us. "Be nice to other people, but beat out the competition". "You're special. Believe in yourself and you will succeed!" -- Opposing arguments would counter with saying how only few people can truly succeed. Adachi was a character that essentially was build around this discussion. Fascinating to say the least.

[Mr.House]

There's too many Glasses-Kun here

[AventuroLegendary]

Yeah, I had a feeling that the pre-19th century reference would be intelligence-insulting. Sorry 'bout that.

 

As for the whole "Luck"/"Best" dichotomy, I'd say that, no matter which one your family would go by, there's a pressure exerted on an individual to make someone proud, whether or not it's obvious. At least most of the time.

 

As for Adachi, pretty much. His words were something along the lines of "To succeed, you need a magic ticket: talent".

[Mr.House]

Which is funny because before Inaba and even Soejima stated that Adachi was a very good detective, while sure he might not like the job, he had the talent for the job.

[AventuroLegendary]

 

Which is funny because before Inaba and even stated that Adachi was a very good detective, while sure he might not like the job, he had the talent for the job.

 

I wonder if Dojima ever brings up Adachi's past record in the game. A little weird for a supposedly talented cop to act like a rookie.

 

My first impression of him was a deskboy-turned-detective.