4593 réponses à ce sujet

[TheChris92]

Yo Chris, I decided to pick up the first DDS. I can juggle it and study, lol. 
 
First thoughts on the game?
 
Toothy boobies.

Good man -- Be prepared for annoying random encounters and extremely long and dull dungeon sections, here and there -- But also, be prepared for an excellent and more dark story too with one of the best Steve Blum characters.

[Ozzy]

Good man -- Be prepared for annoying random encounters and extremely long and dull dungeon sections, here and there -- But also, be prepared for an excellent and more dark story too with one of the best Steve Blum characters.

I let out a huge sigh when I realised that it was random encounters. One of the things I hate most about JRPGs, lol. 

 

Yeah, the story seems to have already started with a dark tone. I'm still in the very early stages, at the hideout of the Vanguards, but I'm keen to go on. 

[TheChris92]

I let out a huge sigh when I realised that it was random encounters. One of the things I hate most about JRPGs, lol. 
 
Yeah, the story seems to have already started with a dark tone. I'm still in the very early stages, at the hideout of the Vanguards, but I'm keen to go on.

It's annoying how, much like Persona 2, Serph doesn't have a voice. I don't know if that's explained in the sequel, I actually haven't beaten the second game yet. But you'd think he should have a voice what with him being the boss and having an establish background. The annoying thing about the random encounter system is that it can occur anywhere, almost at any time, you can walk 2 steps and it'll snatch you up like a rat. It's a system I'm glad has been done away with in Persona 3 & 4 etc.

[Ozzy]

Yeah, Serph being voiceless is kinda weird. It doesn't make much sense to me but eh, I'll just go with it. The random encounters are gonna drive me insane before long. I can feel the twitches coming. 

 

I feel like I'm goofing up my stats though, lol. Have invested pretty much exclusively in Magic, Agility and Vitality. 

 

I have to admit, I burst out laughing when that guy transformed into a friggen zebra. Great stuff.

[Mr.House]

Just buy the spray if you want to lessen the encounters.

[Mr.House]

Yeah, Serph being voiceless is kinda weird. It doesn't make much sense to me but eh, I'll just go with it. The random encounters are gonna drive me insane before long. I can feel the twitches coming. 

 

I feel like I'm goofing up my stats though, lol. Have invested pretty much exclusively in Magic, Agility and Vitality. 

 

I have to admit, I burst out laughing when that guy transformed into a friggen zebra. Great stuff.

That's fine in fact. You'll get stat boosts ast he game goes on so you can max everything really so just focus on oyur desired stats first. My party was always Heat and Argilla so I went pure magic build(but then I maxed everything because if you fight the ultimate boss without three characters being maxed, having the best almighty skills you are borked)

[Seraphim24]

Also, if you actually read what I said in previous posts you'd notice that I didn't hate Tartarus because I liked it for what it represented. Having the dungeon crawling being a big gigantic tower, where Death stalks you in every corner creates a sense of hopelessness and tense atmosphere. It works well with narrative, it goes hand in hand which is what I feel it is supposed to do. I could go on about that but I won't.. not right now.

 

That is indeed a large amount of material. I don't know.. it feels like the dungeon crawling was massively divorced from the story for the most part. You get comfortable in town and do the social links and play around, and then later on you go into this separate giant cube place thing to random battle for awhile. I can't remember but I feel like Tartarus pretty much never deviated from that core structure? Compare to Shadow of the Colossus or something where pretty much nothing is divided out.

 

Anyway I was just lazily slapping dungeon crawling on the gameplay as a whole. Strictly speaking, the gameplay in terms of pure dungeon crawling is almost entirely composed of random battles in space. It's not really anything more active than that.

 

I guess my only point which I didn't really state was just that even though it wasn't as labyrinthine and momentous as something like Legend of Grimrock which has traps, and weird puzzles and monsters with weird things you have to try and do differently each time, it was still something, it had boss battles, the standard random fights were interesting with the mob variety, the fact that you could only enter at certain times, and yes some degree of the aesthetic sense that it was the "dark tower," home to all the crazy monsters. The combat itself I thought was pretty fun overall, in the random battles, although I guess that doesn't really have to do with Tartarus necessarily.

 

I guess I just don't like when people lump JRPGs into a bad gameplay situation, it varies wildly, and some gameplay is better than nothing. Persona is probably the most interesting to me out of most of the VN type games striving to be games (Neptunia, etc). I could never do that grind again, yeah, but at least it got some action, whereas Virtue's last reward might be the greatest thing since baby dinosaurs but without any gameplay at all I'm liable to pass. And Grimrock for what it's worth doesn't really have much story or character's worth a dang anyway, despite the fluid dungeon crawling.

[TheChris92]

I guess I just don't like when people lump JRPGs into a bad gameplay situation, it varies wildly, and some gameplay is better than nothing. Persona is probably the most interesting to me out of most of the VN type games striving to be games (Neptunia, etc). I could never do that grind again, yeah, but at least it got some action, whereas Virtue's last reward might be the greatest thing since baby dinosaurs but without any gameplay at all I'm liable to pass. And Grimrock for what it's worth doesn't really have much story or character's worth a dang anyway, despite the fluid dungeon crawling.

Once again I'm going to call you out as you having not bothered to actually read and understand my previous posts -- I did not say 'lump JRPGs as being bad gameplay" -- I love the Persona games for a reason, sir or ma'am, I also loved Valkyria Chronicles for its excellent turn-based, XCOM inspired, strategic gameplay. You're giving me too little credit here -- You're talking as if I don't like the gameplay at all, or any sort of gameplay, and thus I begin to question as to whether not you actually read what I say before bothering to random respond to parts of my posts. Let me repeat. What I do not like about JRPGs is dungeon crawling, in general, because it is always a tedious snoreworthy corridor fest, filled to the brim with samey environments and irritating random encounter scenarios that bore me to tears-- This is not the case with Persona 3 & 4.

Tartarus is more or less dividied into the other 'category of games' that handle the concepts of time in a somewhat more... balanced way, like I mentioned earlier -- Instead of being entirely based around player agency, in terms of in-game time advancement, it takes a few que's from both sides and actually frames a certain limit for how long a player can spend within its dungeons, before going home and prepare for the next one. It simulates a sort of autobiographal commentary on timed-games as a concept, how these concepts are conveyed in accordance with how the player chooses to spend their time, effort or decisions within the game. The game profiles the player on his her choices, the narrative and gameplay go hand-in-hand in that regard without ever actually litterally asking the questions unlike say.. Catherine or Silent Hill Book of Memories. To put it simple -- You can't stay in Tartarus forever and the game even explains from a plot standpoint too why that is and thus the tower's function and gameplay manages to weave together, accordingly, with every-day school work.

Tartarus is a routine, like the school work and social links, its another element of life that needs to be handled and taken care of if you ever want to move on. Metaphorically speaking it also functions as a sort of underlying image on the protagoinst's own journey to understanding life and getting through the hardships that comes with it -- I think it frames that quite well. It sometimes difficult to explain exactly what it is I mean but I might be able to give a more elaborate explanation in the future.

 

 

Oh, and please don't call Persona a virtual novel because it's a misnomer. Persona isn't a virtual novel any more than Metal Gear is an interactive film. It's a JRPG, nothing else, but it's unlike most JRPGs because it appeals to a niche audience with its approach to old school turn-based combat and dungeon crawling and elements of simulation games.

[Mr.House]

Only Arena/Ultmax and P3P used virtual novel interface and elements anyways so saying the whole series is one just because three games have that type of interface is silly. It's like when people say Persona is a fighting series >.>

[GreyLycanTrope]

You mean to tell me Metal Gear Isn't an interactive film? But I ate popcorn so many times when a cutscene came on.

On a relate note I do find it quite insulting that someone would say Persona is a virtual novel striving to be a game. It's a video game. Period.

Circa 2008 glorified Junes simulator tbh.

[TheChris92]

The cutscenes are only overtly long with Guns of the Patriots, but given that the gameplay is quite complex and detailed it can hardly be considered an interactive film with barely any agency. 

 

I suppose I could have used other examples -- Like LucasArts classic adventure games, or old western RPGs even new ones. All of them have lots of dialogue.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that Persona isn't a game but it's definitely not a virtual novel. It's a JRPG and it's one of a kind. End of story, really.

[Mr.House]

EVERYDAY IS CUSTOMER APPRECIATION DAY AT YOUR JUNES

[TheChris92]

 

That's what I was talking about. I know you didn't say this. I was just bringing up that I find this particular thought insulting.

 

 

That's what I was talking about. I know you didn't say this. I was just bringing up that I find this particular thought insulting.

I agree with you, what I was trying to insinuate, especially in regards to my Metal Gear example, is that games are games and nothing else -- Even the ones like Walking Dead or Wolf Among Us, heck even David Cage's stuff. They are still games and arguably not all good of course. I think I was generally just agreeing with you I was just pointing out how I don't the think the other poster was implying it not to be a game, but he did word it badly -- The notion however of correlating it with that of a virtual novel, feels more or less like an insult to the game's design as a JRPG, which is was it is. It plays like a JRPG with elements from other games, it isn't less a JRPG than say a game like.. Valkyria Chronicles, where a lot of the story is conveyed through small skits outside of the combat.

 

In short, I agree with you Reezy.

[Seraphim24]

Once again I'm going to call you out as you having not bothered to actually read and understand my previous posts -- I did not say 'lump JRPGs as being bad gameplay" -- I love the Persona games for a reason, sir or ma'am, I also loved Valkyria Chronicles for its excellent turn-based, XCOM inspired, strategic gameplay. You're giving me too little credit here -- You're talking as if I don't like the gameplay at all, or any sort of gameplay, and thus I begin to question as to whether not you actually read what I say before bothering to random respond to parts of my posts. .

 

Ahem, I think I'm kind of on your side here. I don't know who was calling Tartarus lame or whatever it was that inspired your defense of it, I was just I guess ineffectually trying to join in that defense. I didn't say you put it in the category of bad gameplay, I simply know a lot of random people that look at JRPGs and go, oh my god, I can't stand the boring random battles. I agree 100% that Persona is one of a kind, that's why I was saying that I don't like when people lump JRPGs together, because well Persona (and really all games) are unique. Then, I specifically contrasted that with Visual Novels, as in, how not visual novelly Persona is, compared to well, straightforward Visual Novels. My brain associates Persona with being closer to a VN than to a Zelda game or something, but ultimately it is neither.

 

There are other JRPGs (or games) that have much more interesting combat systems (dungeon crawls, whatever) to me yes I'm sure I could see that part differently, like Valkyria since you brought it up, and it's true I could never do the grind in Tartarus again, but the spiritual idea I had was just to say yeah Tartarus has a couple things that are all right, I wish people wouldn't group all JRPGs together.

[TheChris92]

Ahem, I think I'm kind of on your side here. I don't know who was calling Tartarus lame or whatever it was that inspired your defense of it, I was just I guess ineffectually trying to join in that defense. I didn't say you put it in the category of bad gameplay, I simply know a lot of random people that look at JRPGs and go, oh my god, I can't stand the boring random battles. I agree 100% that Persona is one of a kind, that's why I was saying that I don't like when people lump JRPGs together, because well Persona (and really all games) are unique. Then, I specifically contrasted that with Visual Novels, as in, how not visual novelly Persona is, compared to well, straightforward Visual Novels. My brain associates Persona with being closer to a VN than to a Zelda game or something, but ultimately it is neither.

 

There are other JRPGs (or games) that have much more interesting combat systems (dungeon crawls, whatever) to me yes I'm sure I could see that part differently, like Valkyria since you brought it up, and it's true I could never do the grind in Tartarus again, but the spiritual idea I had was just to say yeah Tartarus has a couple things that are all right, I wish people wouldn't group all JRPGs together.

You specifically said "Persona is probably the most interesting to me out of most of the VN type games striving to be games". This comes off as an insult to the game's design a bit, and while I'm sure Atlus doesn't need my defending of their games, however, I will, in accordance to all arguments take up a contrary position and defend the integrity of its design -- Because it is not a visual novel "trying to be a game". It is a JRPG that features elements of simulation games and dungeon crawlers in one package with some down-to-the-earth mature writing. It is also a game, that's it.

 

You should not feel the need to tell anyone in this thread how JRPGs are this and that or how they can't be generalized as dull repetitive grind scenarios, because that's not what we are discussing and we wouldn't even be in this thread if that's how we truly felt about JRPGs, am I wrong?

 

We can freely discuss what we don't like or think can be done better though in regards to Persona at least -- I don't like the dungeon crawling but I like the combat and the Persona fusing because of several reasons, among them being how the fusion mechanics adds an addictive playability to its combat and even variety to planning out your tactics. 

 

But I think I've said what I wanted to say about this now.

[Seraphim24]

Well ok forget other JRPGs, I think there are lots of things that could be done better in Persona, like if each level had more of a puzzle based nature. Like you know, find the hidden switch or the password hidden in the environment or weird stuff like that. Honestly Grimrock was quite addicting for that reason, which I bring up solely because it has a lot of those kinds of things, sometimes you are using the switch to trigger a crossbow behind you to hit a rock to hit another thing that opens up this or that, a lot of it feels fairly clever. There are also like teleporter puzzles and trap doors and all kinds of things that have me actively trying to attack and solve the dungeon. When every corridor is just another corridor, it's going to get a bit tedious.

 

On the other hand, some of the cool things that I like and could enjoy remaining in the series are things like the basic grid structure, that in and of itself is ok. Also, I don't really sense an issue with the dungeon basically being a 100 level tower or whatever, that instrinscially doesn't strike me as an issue. All the changes in themes and the the way the timed nature of the dungeon works I find interesting and fun. Actually, Pandora's Tower has something similar where when you are in the tower(s), your girlfriend basically slowly starts dying of this parasite/curse thing and so you have a limited time to explore before you have to get back to her with some special meat that regenerates her spirit.

 

Like I was thinking about finally just getting P4 and doing it, partly because someone said here at one point the dungeon design isn't quite as dry. Every bit counts, and all.

[TheChris92]

Well ok forget other JRPGs, I think there are lots of things that could be done better in Persona, like if each level had more of a puzzle based nature. Like you know, find the hidden switch or the password hidden in the environment or weird stuff like that. Honestly Grimrock was quite addicting for that reason, which I bring up solely because it has a lot of those kinds of things, sometimes you are using the switch to trigger a crossbow behind you to hit a rock to hit another thing that opens up this or that, a lot of it feels fairly clever. There are also like teleporter puzzles and trap doors and all kinds of things that have me actively trying to attack and solve the dungeon. When every corridor is just another corridor, it's going to get a bit tedious.

 

On the other hand, some of the cool things that I like and could enjoy remaining in the series are things like the basic grid structure, that in and of itself is ok. Also, I don't really sense an issue with the dungeon basically being a 100 level tower or whatever, that instrinscially doesn't strike me as an issue. All the changes in themes and the the way the timed nature of the dungeon works I find interesting and fun. Actually, Pandora's Tower has something similar where when you are in the tower(s), your girlfriend basically slowly starts dying of this parasite/curse thing and so you have a limited time to explore before you have to get back to her with some special meat that regenerates her spirit.

 

Like I was thinking about finally just getting P4 and doing it, partly because someone said here at one point the dungeon design isn't quite as dry. Every bit counts, and all.

I explained earlier why I think having the dungeon crawling taking placing entirely inside Tartarus in Persona 3 really works well in accordance to the over all plot, whereas the dungeons of P4 in regards to what has been established about its own otherworld  -- I believe it's here where the gameplay and narrative syncs together quite smoothly. I don't believe puzzles is what Persona dungeons need, as I don't find physics puzzles to be particularly engaging at all. A good puzzle is something I feel should challenge your level of attention to detail, where the answer can be found either in the knowledge of lore or a note, something out of Eternal Darkness or Silent Hill, not illogical adventure game physics puzzles. Perish the thought.

 

Give me something like the former or nothing at all.

[Seraphim24]

Well honestly I'd prefer something that ideally blends both worlds. I don't play Minecraft and I never bothered with Portal despite the accolades, it's only when at least some degree of artistry is brought into the picture that I start caring more (Mirror's Edge).

 

Silent Hill 2 (the only one I've played at all) and I'm sure also Eternal Darkness have the similar degree of attachment. Zelda was traditionally, not really now so much, but traditionally that kind of blending that made it a very potent experience.

 

But even lore puzzles or something in a note don't show up in Tartarus right? So that's the kind of thing that could create more variety.

[TheChris92]

There are notes in Tartarus -- You find them near every boss section, the notes explain a bit about the origins of the tower if you bring them to Elizabeth. The overall point is that if you're going to implement puzzles, then I'd feel that it should be puzzles applied to logic solving, and not questionable adventure-game-logic, or physics puzzles.

Otherwise they feel unnecessarily frustrating for the sake of being frustrating or like the developers are under some pretentious mindset of seeing the need to pad the game out for a bit, while pretending to be smart, by arbitrarily implementing a rubik's cube into the game for the player to solve.

I dislike Mirror's Edge gameplay. Platforming and first-person-view don't see eye to eye. Portal is fun for some of the same reasons that Silent Hill is fun is that it doesn't see the need to treat the player like a fool, and neither does it feel the pretense of requiring cutscenes or overly long scripted dialogue exposition to craft its narrative. It's all in its environment and small cast of characters that shape the world. I like it when its kept small because it also leaves a lot to the imagination.

Eternal Darkness applies to the same logic solving as that of Silent Hill hence why I brought it up.

[Mr.House]

Eternal Darkness was the best troll.

[GreyLycanTrope]