Excuse me if this has already been answered, but - in regards to off topic discussion (ie not Bioware related) there has been a suggestion that off topic is not even allowed in private groups.
Can someone please make this a little clearer? I understand cracking down on off topic discussion in the main forum, but for groups?
Thanks.
Excuse me if this has already been answered, but - in regards to off topic discussion (ie not Bioware related) there has been a suggestion that off topic is not even allowed in private groups.
Can someone please make this a little clearer? I understand cracking down on off topic discussion in the main forum, but for groups?
Thanks.
Per Jessica Merizan, yes. Groups are not allowed to have off-topic discussion, which I maintain is ridiculous in the extreme. When I asked her about it she referenced a group I'd created, thinking about the groups from the old forums, and accused me of trying to be subversive.
It's an excessively rigid stance to take, extending rules against being off-topic to private groups, but the response from Merizan seems to be bafflement over why people even want to be on this site at all if they want a place to discuss off-topic subjects.
I thought the whole point of private groups was to allow friends to chat freely and privately while still staying inside a forum's ecosystem. If they're going to limit group discussions to bioware products, they might as well just eliminate groups entirely.
Per Jessica Merizan, yes. Groups are not allowed to have off-topic discussion, which I maintain is ridiculous in the extreme. When I asked her about it she referenced a group I'd created, thinking about the groups from the old forums, and accused me of trying to be subversive.
It's an excessively rigid stance to take, extending rules against being off-topic to private groups, but the response from Merizan seems to be bafflement over why people even want to be on this site at all if they want a place to discuss off-topic subjects.
Subversive? Okay that's a laughable comment to make! So subversive now means being asked a question they don't want to answer?
Anyway, I agree its a bit over the top. In regard to off-topic in general, I think saying hi or bye or how was your day kind of conversation has a place in groups, these are people we've built online friendships with and to say it's not allowed because its off topic is pretty daft IMO.
If they were really serious they wouldn't allow groups at all and revert to only having discussion in the main forums. If they did that they'd find people leaving to create their own forums (as one of the groups I belong to did - it's a small, mainly Bioware focussed forum, but we talk about anything and everything else too.)
Anyway Bioware, good luck with policing all the off-topic conversations in groups.
I'd like some clarification on that as well because groups were a chance for people who didn't feel comfortable enough around forums to talk about whatever with people of like mind, and over the past 4 years people have - as Bugsie already mentioned - formed online friendships, and BSN has been a major factor in that because those friendships developed out of a shared love for Bioware games.
Jessica stated in her Ama the following:
Yeah we really want to keep the new forums focused on things that are related to BioWare. It's easier to moderate and keeps discussion targeted. Of course, you can definitely mention other franchises or media when talking about BioWare IP/games/comics etc if it supports your point, but if it's completely off topic or unrelated, it really belongs on another website (unless it's in the off-topic subforum which we believe is a small outlet for fans and devs to discuss interests outside BioWare within other the forum guidelines).
(permalink here for anyone interested: http://www.reddit.co...ger_at/cfnvqm0)
How is moderation for groups going to work? Is there any chance to loosen up those strict guidelines when it comes to groups? Yes, I understand that there are indeed other places where we can discuss such things but
1) shouldn't Bioware be happy that they are providing such a good platform and environment for people to discuss things here?
2) isn't that like saying "don't let the door hit you on your way out?
I do understand that having an abundance of groups that eventually "die a slow death" can be annoying. Wouldn't it be more helpful to delete groups that have been inactive for a certain amount of time?
Going off her quote it seems she was referring more about posts in the specific game forums. So a post about XYZ that isn't related to Dragon Age, and is not being used to show that XYZ should somehow be related/compared to Dragon Age should not be in the Dragon Age part of the forums.
Going off her quote it seems she was referring more about posts in the specific game forums. So a post about XYZ that isn't related to Dragon Age, and is not being used to show that XYZ should somehow be related/compared to Dragon Age should not be in the Dragon Age part of the forums.
it was a direct response to someone asking specifically about groups so I am assuming that "the new forums" includes groups.
In some capacity off topic discussions will always occur. Many will occur in The Lobby, and people will go off on tangents even in general threads in the various game forums. These types of discussions will likely still occur in groups as well.
If you were to ask me personally (i.e. my own opinion, as I'm not a dedicated moderator nor do I take part in any moderating planning discussions, nor do I work with the online team), I actually wouldn't have groups at all (for lengthy reasons I can't really discuss since I really should go to bed soon and this post will be long enough as it is....). I do understand that this position sucks if you've enjoyed the BSN as your one stop shop for hanging out with friends online while not being that far from game news and discussion. It's something you had and it's convenient and its being taken away from you. No one ever says "Yippee!" when that happens.
As mentioned in this thread "good luck moderating all the off topic discussion that goes on in groups." You're probably quite right... and if so I (personal opinion) see groups evaluated if it comes to that. I think that the reason why they exist is that ancillary groups, such as cosplay or multiplayer, or a host of other things still more closely related to the games could still exist. Especially for some of the topics that some may feel less comfortable being open about (i.e. LGBT content discussions and so forth). That said, the issue with moderating off topic discussion doesn't go away if we decide to allow off topic discussion in groups. I had very serious reservations and genuine discomfort with some stuff that went on with the private groups, and like pointed out... good luck moderating that (and I likely only skimmed the surface). And I'm not just referring to the specifics of the type of content that went on, but some of the behaviours and so forth. And yes, I understand that this pretty much means that some subset of the groups and other BSN social features ended up ruining it for everyone which is also a sucky thing to have to deal with if you've been affected.
I do think that BioWare is better served focusing more on something more gaming focused rather than a general all purpose social site with the intense amount of support that that provides. An advantage for me, as someone that does occasionally help out the moderating staff, is that yes, there's been a reduction in the scope of coverage provided by the BioWare forum. Like I said, I think it's perfectly understandable for someone to be upset by that because they've lost a convenience that they once had. It's human to find this sort of thing frustrating.
What I see with the current forum setup is something, for better or worse depending on who you ask, very much in line with what other game forums provide. I'm sure some provide a bit more, and others provide a bit less, but in general as both someone that frequents game forums but more importantly as developer that tries to help out the mod team on a board that I think struggles with being a pleasant place to be from time to time, I consider it a good thing... despite that being an extremely unpopular perspective for some.
As for friendships, I do connect and branch out with my friends in other ways. Some I keep in contact with in a private IRC channel. Many I become social media friends with an interact with as a part of Facebook or Twitter or something similar like that. I take no joy in people being upset and feeling like we're just trying to be frustrating for people. But I would prefer that our focus shifts more towards making the game forum aspect more welcoming to people, and especially fellow developers, and I think that BioWare's work is cut out for them in that regard alone... but I'm optimistic about it.
Not what people want to hear, but it's my perspective on it. Pre-emptive apologies (I'm Canadian...) to Jessica and the online team if this kind of oversteps my mandate and I recognize that me saying "my opinion!!!" over and over doesn't preclude some from still taking this as some sort of official gospel. Feel free to send me strongly worded emails if that's the case! 
Regards,
Allan
thanks for your take on it, Allan.
I guess, when it comes down to it we do have a choice: either make groups abiding by the rules or go elsewhere.
it was a direct response to someone asking specifically about groups so I am assuming that "the new forums" includes groups.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt for now then, but otherwise it's facepalm worthy material. Oh well. 
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt for now then, but otherwise it's facepalm worthy material. Oh well.
to be honest, if you look at some of the stuff that was going on in the old groups, I'm surprised we did get away with it at all, so, I do understand where BW (or at least Allan expressing his own opinion) is coming from. I think it's also easier to stick to the rules having a clearer picture of what the rules actually are and what is allowed and what should be avoided.
I don't have to like it but I'm old enough to live with it and making the best of the situation.
Thanks for your lengthy reply Allan. If I'm to be brutally honest, for the reasons you mention above, most of the people I want to be close to here are now friends either through FB, Steam or through more personal communications like email. I suspect many others who've been around for a while may have similar stories about their friendships that originated here. If Bioware had to sacrifice groups in order to provide a much better forum than currently exists now I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing. Many would disagree with such a move, many would hate it and leave for good, but from an operational standpoint I personally see where this is coming from and may in the long run attract more people. I certainly wouldn't quibble if it meant better moderation in the main forums (which I've had a love hate with relationship for a number of reasons, foremost being absent moderators and too many spammy, attacking or just outright troll posts.)As for friendships, I do connect and branch out with my friends in other ways. Some I keep in contact with in a private IRC channel. Many I become social media friends with an interact with as a part of Facebook or Twitter or something similar like that. I take no joy in people being upset and feeling like we're just trying to be frustrating for people. But I would prefer that our focus shifts more towards making the game forum aspect more welcoming to people, and especially fellow developers, and I think that BioWare's work is cut out for them in that regard alone... but I'm optimistic about it.
Not what people want to hear, but it's my perspective on it. Pre-emptive apologies (I'm Canadian...) to Jessica and the online team if this kind of oversteps my mandate and I recognize that me saying "my opinion!!!" over and over doesn't preclude some from still taking this as some sort of official gospel. Feel free to send me strongly worded emails if that's the case!
Regards,
Allan
As someone who stopped visiting the forums a long time ago because of the absolutely toxic atmosphere present in most of the conversations, I found a refuge of sorts in the groups. I understand Allan's point of view, and I certainly hope the new site will foster forum discussions of better quality, but what I don't understand is the idea that groups/discussions that aren't directly related to BioWare are somehow unwanted now (outside of the Off-Topic forum, that is). BioWare releases new games every few years, and as much as I've enjoyed them, the releases are so far apart, there simply isn't enough to discuss if that's all we're allowed to talk about. In the interim, the groups of friends and acquaintances I've built over the years have played other games by other developers and discussed all that in our groups, keeping our corner of the BW community alive. If we didn't have that, I imagine we'd be long gone by now.
Right now, there is still very little actual information about DA:I that can be discussed, and even less about the next ME game. Is the expectation then that those of the community who aren't really interested in discussing rumours and tidbits of information should simply leave altogether until a game release becomes more imminent and the information starts pouring in? The old site had its flaws, and I certainly approve of moderating the community to weed out unacceptable behaviour, but it would be a shame to lose the inclusivity we had there. BioWare has an incredibly loyal community that the BSN has helped keep together, but I don't know a single gamer who plays BioWare titles exclusively. I for one would appreciate it if groups were still allowed to exist even if they weren't strictly speaking about BioWare titles, as long as they otherwise adhere to the code of conduct on this site.
I think both Allan and swirl make good points.
I know a lot of the problems that existed with Groups. I get that and sympathize.
But I also get that part of what kept Bioware prominent in gaming was the community feeling - not just promoted by Bioware, but by the players themselves, self-generating interest and gushing over Bioware games amongst themselves and radiating that concentrated enthusiasm outward to any other gamer they know (and even non-gamers).
Things like private groups, other networking features, and romance threads (as much as I personally don't care for them) were part of this.
BSN got increasingly toxic, but the recent moves seem to be more about tossing away the good with the bad, even if unintentionally.
This wouldn't so much be an issue if:
1)Bioware releases (and news, and other gameplay-related content, and conversations with devs) were more frequent, thus giving people more 'on topic' things to discuss in an avid fashion (I know this will happen for DA:I but I dunno about Mass)
2)The tools to have private group functions (even if not the exact same thing as groups) existed
As it is, there's little point I see to groups, and the private messaging and friends functions leave me wanting. So I'm just glad I never got that much into groups in the first place, but just talked to a lot of people about them over time.
I got the forum I want, so I'm good.
But I feel bad for those who had BSN as a big part of what attached them to the Bioware brand and its games, and now feel shut out. An emotional thing, yeah, but it's still a thing.
Maybe Bioware should of thought twice before naming their forum "Bioware Social Network". I understand we have to abide by their rules and that they want it to be actively about their products, but as their community as a whole and I can only speak for myself, I tend to enjoy many, many games and a lot of folks from THIS community are a blast to interactive with. Taking away the whole "social" aspect, but then making everything, from Profiles, to Groups and so on, "public" even though you can make the certain aspects "hidden"... just seems... sketchy. It's their forums and I respect that, but a lot of this specific community is based off of a great foundation of interaction with each other, where it evolved from the love of Bioware games and into something more.
As someone who stopped visiting the forums a long time ago because of the absolutely toxic atmosphere present in most of the conversations
The "toxic" environment was there is you sought it out and overly exaggerated.
I think both Allan and swirl make good points.
I know a lot of the problems that existed with Groups. I get that and sympathize.
But I also get that part of what kept Bioware prominent in gaming was the community feeling - not just promoted by Bioware, but by the players themselves, self-generating interest and gushing over Bioware games amongst themselves and radiating that concentrated enthusiasm outward to any other gamer they know (and even non-gamers).
Things like private groups, other networking features, and romance threads (as much as I personally don't care for them) were part of this.
BSN got increasingly toxic, but the recent moves seem to be more about tossing away the good with the bad, even if unintentionally.
What is so threatening about groups?
A few extremes in certain threads in the romance section and you believe it was a valid reason to close it off, let alone "adding" to the so called toxicity? I can say the exact same thing about the Multiplayer section, but it stayed open.
And what is the so called "more toxic environment"?
Romances? People hating on their games? A few users? Like this isn't anymore present in other gaming forums - there are many and many users who can give valid criticism, while still respecting positive aspects of their games.
Can we have an official answer about the OP's question? I'd like to have a simple yes/no.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
I agree. I thought that when I signed up to talk to others, in a much smaller locale mind you, I would actually get to, you know, talk to those people. BioWare games are great, and I probably own more of them than most, but they are few and far inbetween, and more importantly, they are already being discussed multitudes over. I agree with a lot of the points made here, Finally, I'm wondering how removing one of the most favored features of the site could possibly make anything more friendly. Removing the feed just a day and a half ago most certainly didn't. Removing the polls didn't make anything more friendly. How is removing groups and placing even more restrictions going to make anything friendly? Being passive aggressive to each other is hardly being friendly.
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I agree. I thought that when I signed up to talk to others, in a much smaller locale mind you, I would actually get to, you know, talk to those people. BioWare games are great, and I probably own more of them than most, but they are few and far inbetween, and more importantly, they are already being discussed multitudes over. I agree with a lot of the points made here, Finally, I'm wondering how removing one of the most favored features of the site could possibly make anything more friendly. Removing the feed just a day and a half ago most certainly didn't. Removing the polls didn't make anything more friendly. How is removing groups and placing even more restrictions going to make anything friendly? Being passive aggressive to each other is hardly being friendly.
Preach homie. I agree with all of this.
I agree. I thought that when I signed up to talk to others, in a much smaller locale mind you, I would actually get to, you know, talk to those people. BioWare games are great, and I probably own more of them than most, but they are few and far inbetween, and more importantly, they are already being discussed multitudes over. I agree with a lot of the points made here, Finally, I'm wondering how removing one of the most favored features of the site could possibly make anything more friendly. Removing the feed just a day and a half ago most certainly didn't. Removing the polls didn't make anything more friendly. How is removing groups and placing even more restrictions going to make anything friendly? Being passive aggressive to each other is hardly being friendly.
Preach homie. I agree with all of this.
What is so threatening about groups?
A few extremes in certain threads in the romance section and you believe it was a valid reason to close it off, let alone "adding" to the so called toxicity? I can say the exact same thing about the Multiplayer section, but it stayed open.
And what is the so called "more toxic environment"?
Romances? People hating on their games? A few users? Like this isn't anymore present in other gaming forums - there are many and many users who can give valid criticism, while still respecting positive aspects of their games.
Not to mention that there are forums much more toxic than people claimed the BSN to be
And groups never caused any problems either
I agree. I thought that when I signed up to talk to others, in a much smaller locale mind you, I would actually get to, you know, talk to those people. BioWare games are great, and I probably own more of them than most, but they are few and far inbetween, and more importantly, they are already being discussed multitudes over. I agree with a lot of the points made here, Finally, I'm wondering how removing one of the most favored features of the site could possibly make anything more friendly. Removing the feed just a day and a half ago most certainly didn't. Removing the polls didn't make anything more friendly. How is removing groups and placing even more restrictions going to make anything friendly? Being passive aggressive to each other is hardly being friendly.
Pretty much. Since it was previously called the Social Network, groups would have been a part of that social aspect, where people can gather and talk about similar interests and make new friends. While off-topic does provide a place to discuss new and interesting things, I find it a lot more fun to discuss with with my friends I've made here in smaller situations. They can even give us a place to cool down when the main forums start to get a little heated. I can see why people may not like them, but I think they provide more good than bad.
Maybe Bioware should of thought twice before naming their forum "Bioware Social Network".
I think it was you that created the thread, but it's not referred to the BioWare Social Network anymore. Yes, I think the old intention was to create a more social space, but it seems as though keeping that degree of focus was not in the cards.
I understand that that just outright sucks for a lot of people that relied on that convenience, but if the attempt at doing a social site was ultimately concluded as not being a good idea going forward (for whatever reason), I don't think it's relevant to point out that the old site was called a Social network given that it's no longer referred to as that.
Finally, I'm wondering how removing one of the most favored features of the site could possibly make anything more friendly. Removing the feed just a day and a half ago most certainly didn't.
The feed was, unfortunately, anything but friendly a lot of the time. I had to start actively removing friends (which caused all sorts of extra drama when people assumed I was dropping them for other reasons) because of a lot of the outright uncomfortable things I saw in them. It's doubly awkward because I tried to be open as a developer for people who wanted quicker access to hanging out with me and following my posts.
Sure, it's "all fun and friendly" when it's a poster and their friends bad mouthing a fellow forum poster or a moderator or even BioWare itself... but I consider it to be a fundamental issue with the old site. And yes, I understand that it means that some people ruined it for everyone.
On the very last day I saw people literally going over to someone else's profile to continue a thread fight on that person's status update.
I think it was you that created the thread, but it's not referred to the BioWare Social Network anymore. Yes, I think the old intention was to create a more social space, but it seems as though keeping that degree of focus was not in the cards.
I understand that that just outright sucks for a lot of people that relied on that convenience, but if the attempt at doing a social site was ultimately concluded as not being a good idea going forward (for whatever reason), I don't think it's relevant to point out that the old site was called a Social network given that it's no longer referred to as that.
That's fine and again, it's their site, not mine. I have to adapt and respect their decision, but I find that the constant posts, that end up just getting repeated over and over again, until new information comes out in the forums are just like beating a dead horse. That's why, in between those periods of time when all we can really do is wait on their future products, it helped that we could still enjoy conversations and "dance" with them, up until new information comes out because we've all seen how this place blows up once a game comes out.
That's why I liked the groups, we could still continue to support Bioware, if we chose to, but still not go "insane" with the repeating of ideas/threads/etc.
Also I would suspect that it would be against Biowares interests to host groups who's only existence is to trash their games and or other posters. Not saying that criticism isn't valid or anything, but when I see certain posters do nothing but say all Biowares games suck, even DA:O or ME, or earlier popular titles I do question why they remain on a site devoted to those games. It's a bit like showing up at a wedding and loudly proclaiming that getting married is dumb, and the people getting married are dumb for participating in such a ritual.Sure, it's "all fun and friendly" when it's a poster and their friends bad mouthing a fellow forum poster or a moderator or even BioWare itself... but I consider it to be a fundamental issue with the old site. And yes, I understand that it means that some people ruined it for everyone.
On the very last day I saw people literally going over to someone else's profile to continue a thread fight on that person's status update.
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