Excuse me if this has already been answered, but - in regards to off topic discussion (ie not Bioware related) there has been a suggestion that off topic is not even allowed in private groups.
Can someone please make this a little clearer? I understand cracking down on off topic discussion in the main forum, but for groups?
Thanks.
In some capacity off topic discussions will always occur. Many will occur in The Lobby, and people will go off on tangents even in general threads in the various game forums. These types of discussions will likely still occur in groups as well.
If you were to ask me personally (i.e. my own opinion, as I'm not a dedicated moderator nor do I take part in any moderating planning discussions, nor do I work with the online team), I actually wouldn't have groups at all (for lengthy reasons I can't really discuss since I really should go to bed soon and this post will be long enough as it is....). I do understand that this position sucks if you've enjoyed the BSN as your one stop shop for hanging out with friends online while not being that far from game news and discussion. It's something you had and it's convenient and its being taken away from you. No one ever says "Yippee!" when that happens.
As mentioned in this thread "good luck moderating all the off topic discussion that goes on in groups." You're probably quite right... and if so I (personal opinion) see groups evaluated if it comes to that. I think that the reason why they exist is that ancillary groups, such as cosplay or multiplayer, or a host of other things still more closely related to the games could still exist. Especially for some of the topics that some may feel less comfortable being open about (i.e. LGBT content discussions and so forth). That said, the issue with moderating off topic discussion doesn't go away if we decide to allow off topic discussion in groups. I had very serious reservations and genuine discomfort with some stuff that went on with the private groups, and like pointed out... good luck moderating that (and I likely only skimmed the surface). And I'm not just referring to the specifics of the type of content that went on, but some of the behaviours and so forth. And yes, I understand that this pretty much means that some subset of the groups and other BSN social features ended up ruining it for everyone which is also a sucky thing to have to deal with if you've been affected.
I do think that BioWare is better served focusing more on something more gaming focused rather than a general all purpose social site with the intense amount of support that that provides. An advantage for me, as someone that does occasionally help out the moderating staff, is that yes, there's been a reduction in the scope of coverage provided by the BioWare forum. Like I said, I think it's perfectly understandable for someone to be upset by that because they've lost a convenience that they once had. It's human to find this sort of thing frustrating.
What I see with the current forum setup is something, for better or worse depending on who you ask, very much in line with what other game forums provide. I'm sure some provide a bit more, and others provide a bit less, but in general as both someone that frequents game forums but more importantly as developer that tries to help out the mod team on a board that I think struggles with being a pleasant place to be from time to time, I consider it a good thing... despite that being an extremely unpopular perspective for some.
As for friendships, I do connect and branch out with my friends in other ways. Some I keep in contact with in a private IRC channel. Many I become social media friends with an interact with as a part of Facebook or Twitter or something similar like that. I take no joy in people being upset and feeling like we're just trying to be frustrating for people. But I would prefer that our focus shifts more towards making the game forum aspect more welcoming to people, and especially fellow developers, and I think that BioWare's work is cut out for them in that regard alone... but I'm optimistic about it.
Not what people want to hear, but it's my perspective on it. Pre-emptive apologies (I'm Canadian...) to Jessica and the online team if this kind of oversteps my mandate and I recognize that me saying "my opinion!!!" over and over doesn't preclude some from still taking this as some sort of official gospel. Feel free to send me strongly worded emails if that's the case! 
Regards,
Allan
Maybe Bioware should of thought twice before naming their forum "Bioware Social Network".
I think it was you that created the thread, but it's not referred to the BioWare Social Network anymore. Yes, I think the old intention was to create a more social space, but it seems as though keeping that degree of focus was not in the cards.
I understand that that just outright sucks for a lot of people that relied on that convenience, but if the attempt at doing a social site was ultimately concluded as not being a good idea going forward (for whatever reason), I don't think it's relevant to point out that the old site was called a Social network given that it's no longer referred to as that.
Finally, I'm wondering how removing one of the most favored features of the site could possibly make anything more friendly. Removing the feed just a day and a half ago most certainly didn't.
The feed was, unfortunately, anything but friendly a lot of the time. I had to start actively removing friends (which caused all sorts of extra drama when people assumed I was dropping them for other reasons) because of a lot of the outright uncomfortable things I saw in them. It's doubly awkward because I tried to be open as a developer for people who wanted quicker access to hanging out with me and following my posts.
Sure, it's "all fun and friendly" when it's a poster and their friends bad mouthing a fellow forum poster or a moderator or even BioWare itself... but I consider it to be a fundamental issue with the old site. And yes, I understand that it means that some people ruined it for everyone.
On the very last day I saw people literally going over to someone else's profile to continue a thread fight on that person's status update.
I understand people wanting to hang around because of friends and lulz but i guess it's Biowares prerogative to insist those people 'move along' would you say that's the case?
You know, I'll concede that that could be a way of looking at it. Though I mean, The Lobby is still filled with non-BioWare specific threads, because I think there's an understanding that not every single conversation will be directly about something BioWare related. I'm not really a fan of something like MLP, but we have a huge thread about it. And for some reason I'm more comfortable with the thread simply existing in the public sphere rather than in a private one like a group. But that's my personal preference.
The way I sort of see it as BioWare forums may be more inclined on being a stop, rather than the stop for some people to spend their time on the internet. And like I said, I know that losing that convenience is still a shake up and a pisser if it's something that you really liked and didn't feel needed changing.
The one other game forum I frequent is similar, although they broke down their Lobby into various sub groups such as one for Computer/Video games, one for pen and paper gaming, one for aspiring developers, and a catch all "Way off topic." Maybe that's something that could happen if people want, as those topics are still have a stronger tie in with BioWare. Just sort of less degrees of separation than an analysis of of the geopolitcal underpinnings of 18th century Africa! At least that's the way I see it.
The worrisome part I have about hanging out "for lulz" in insular, private groupings is that IMO things can get "cliquey" (for lack of a better term) and cans of worms get opened when undeclared cold wars start. Sort of like self-imposed segregation when maybe I just feel that there's better long term community health with some degree of intermingling. Then again, this is a larger forum than the other game forum I frequent, so maybe what I think would work here doesn't scale as well. I also do think it's kind of a problem (on us!) if people feel they need to disappear to a private group to discuss their favourite movies, for example.
There are many friendships that developed from rivalries in the forums, often because the feed or groups allowed those people to interact with each other about something that they can connect over, rather than whatever "on topic" argument they were having in a forum. This often rebounds into making them more empathetic and civil with each other when they are in the forums.
I agree that interacting with those that may be rivals is often a good way of doing so. Is this a situation then, where simply having public exposure would get people operating in the same space as others to develop that empathy? In other words, that interpersonal interaction that would exist because a discussion thread is open and public, as opposed to hidden and segregated? I mean, a difference that Jessica and I probably have is that I'm probably more open to off topic types of conversations. I would just put them in off topic forums rather than private, segregated groups.
While there is negative, there is positive, as well. Acting in the extreme - by reacting only to the negative - is not healthy. It's not healthy for people, and it's not healthy for corporations, either.
Is there an objective way of assessing who is acting extreme? Mostly a rhetorical question, since I don't think there is and it'd depend on what one's perspective is. For example, I don't see BioWare moving to a forum that is a lot like other video game forums as a particularly extreme move. But I don't think you'd agree with my perspective.
Now, pushing people who are anathema to each other into the same forum without the benefit of groups acting as "neutral corners" is just asking for an outright spat between opposing factions throughout the forum, and yes, good luck moderating it, I wouldn't want to. Frankly I'm surprised Priestly didn't lockdown the romance forum earlier on the BSN, I would have.
I think that this is definitely on BioWare (with help from you guys via reporting), and yeah there's probably going to be an adjustment period and I don't expect things to be rainbows and lollipops overnight. I think it's also important to note that this software is infinitely better at doing things like ignoring antagonistic posters (literally infinitely better... in that you actually can), and so far the reporting and moderating functionality behind the scenes is also much, much better than the older BSN.
And didn't the mods already have moderation powers and could peer into any group before?
Actually I don't know if they did. There were certainly groups that I could not see into (though I could still see the postings on the activity feeds and on people's walls, even though clicking on the link took me to a group I couldn't see). And it's very unpleasant when I see people literally insulting me (for a variety of reasons, typically related to me trying to help out with forum moderation), or colluding against other posters. I mean, a permanent ban from the BSN still allowed those posters to post status updates and take part on the community, even if in a limited capacity (something I don't consider good at all, and from what I understand was an intrinsic flaw with the software).
I will add to swirlwind's point by saying that eliminating groups (in practical terms) would result in more of the Forum's friendly, helpful posters leaving, than the ones who enjoy fighting in the forums.
That's fair logic and that may be. We'll find out I suppose. I think a counter point is also that if a friendly, helpful poster can retreat to a private group, then the public forum space could be made worse because the helpful people all took shelter somewhere else leaving mostly the more hostile people (or they still leave the forum altogether, which happened with a group of friends I met that I still chat with from time to time over IRC). Ideally, we can make sure that the helpful people get the support that they need, whether through an improved reporting system or the ability to allow users better control over which posters they can see.
Hah, that reminds me. Now that we can see who visits our profiles, I randomly took a look once and noticed that BiowareMod01 paid my page a visit.
Well, I'm not the biggest fan of that particular feature either (the other forum I'm on that uses the same software also has that feature - I wonder if it's just on by default).
This is a good post, but it's getting late. Unfortunately it's been flagged as read.... remind me to look it over in more detail!
Cheers.
Allan
I've been posting on these forums for a few years now. In my opinion (and I could be wrong) and from my observation (which I admit is purely my own and, therefore, subjective and biased), I never saw status update fights until AFTER the PM change on the old BSN. Before, when you could PM anybody (unless they blocked you), moderators would tell off-topic banter or fights to "take it to PM" and, for the large part, it appeared that occurred. That way, people could duke it out in private, not air their dirty laundry, and hopefully come to some type of truce. After the PM system was changed so that you had to be friends before you could send a PM, that changed things. If you are having a heated disagreement with someone, adding them as a friend is not a natural inclination. THAT was when I saw fights continue on until a thread was closed... then they'd sometimes start a brand new thread just to continue the fight... and/or move the fight to status updates/newsfeeds/wall comments.
Honestly, I blame that on the PM change at the time more than anything else.
You're probably right that some of it just moved.
The reason the PM rights were altered was because people were harassing each other via PMs, to the point where alt accounts would get created. This is more symptomatic of the back end of the BSN being incapable of properly dealing with it, and that attempting to fix it was a super high risk issue.
The block feature on the BSN only affected PMs, but it was trivial to circumvent it and started sucking up a lot of moderator time. If the BSN had better content controls it'd be easier to moderate, but it didn't.
I consider myself a friendly, helpful poster. I believe the bulk of my posting history can back up that claim. And while there is a private group that I love visiting daily that is populated by lots of friends - and new friends made via said group - I have not retreated from the overall forums. I consider the groups to be supportive of my time here and help keep me here longer and visiting the forums even during periods of not-having-much-to-discuss, like right now between game releases.
There's going to be anecdotes along all sides. People are talking in hypotheticals saying that by not allowing certain types of groups will push the otherwise helpful posters away, and I provided with a hypothetical of my own to counter it. Another hypothetical could be that not allowing certain types of groups could push the otherwise antagonistic posters away too. My example was to more illustrate that it's speculative and hard to state with any sort of certainty. If you're losing a particular feature, there's going to be an inclination to worry about knock on effects, and to share the ones that you think may make the forum worse as an argument to support the feature that has been removed.
Now, your argument is that the Off-Topic Lobby exists, so why would one want to be in a group instead of posting there? My honest opinion (and, again, only my opinion)? I find the Off-Topic lobby itself to be clique-ish. Most of the regular folks posting there, I believe, have been doing so frequently and for many years. Sometimes, when someone viewed as "one of those ME3 MP players", it is not always well-received. A few of them have even come into the ME3 MP forum in the past to express disgust at our existence/perceived group behavior (as if we're a hive mind), etc. I also feel the ME3 MP players are maybe a little different group of people as - unlike a lot of the rest of the forum - most of us have actually played games with each other (specifically, a BioWare game!), chatted over the mic together, etc. That has bred, I feel, somewhat closer and stronger relationships, maybe a little smaller and more intimate than the forum as a whole. When ME3 MPers wanted to discuss something off-topic with that group of individuals they'd formed friendships with (both here on the forum and in-game), the advice was to make a group for it.
Is it safe to say, then, that the issue is that the Off topic forums could be improved and made less antagonistic? I only spend a little bit of time in there, and there are threads that I'm not sure are necessarily the best types of threads to have. I can definitely see how a fan of ME3MP could be persecuted. If this is the case, then maybe/hopefully the improved moderation tools and reporting system can help mitigate some of the antagonism?
My point with this comment is more that "the forum software is different. Previous conventions that the BSN experience may not necessarily apply anymore." It strikes me as a huge problem if Off-topic remains clique-y and you aren't welcome there simply because you're a fan of ME3MP. By the same account, it's a situation that can never really be remedied if people remain segregated. I think it's a complicated situation.
But my general feeling from the overall tone and what's being said in this thread is that the decision has already been made. Our impending demise is inevitable. There is no room for us to explain our point of view and hope for reconsideration (like what happened for Projects on the old site). I guess I owe a thanks for the heads up, at least. As much as I would like to spend the majority of my time here (like I have the past few years now), it seems time for me to start looking at free forum software on the Internet and spend some time recreating a group once again so that ME3 MPers can continue to be off-topic in a place they feel welcomed and bounce back and forth between that separate, non-BioWare forum and the actual BioWare forum here for public discussion. That's a far more tedious solution than I was hoping would come out of this discussion, but that is how life goes, I suppose.
You're probably right in the immediate aftermath of the transition. I mean, I know some groups were already created that immediately returned to doing what we didn't like them doing on the BSN, that I feel contribute to hostility in the public parts of the forum. There's going to be a degree of stamping out that hurtful stuff.
But I think there's still going to be a degree of organic measures applied. My thoughts would be for you to create the group, and maybe touch base with Jessica directly via PM, or maybe some of the moderators, so that you can establish what would be considered acceptable.
I mean, if you guys mostly talk more ME3 or ME3MP in the group anyways, I'd say it'd probably still be considered relevant, even if you had some off-topic threads in there as well.
I want to apologize to everyone in the thread - especially Allan and any other BioWare employees - if any of my postsyesterday came off as combative or entitled. That was not at all what I was trying to imply or portray. I merely wanted to present my case for supporting ALL types of groups like they were in the past. To provide my view and feelings on it. As an Aries, that sometimes means that my presentation comes off as... rougher, perhaps, than I mean it to.
I'm the very last person to feel BioWare owes me anything. Quite the opposite: I feel I will always owe BioWare my eternal gratitude and loyalty for the heart they showed me two years ago. I do not wear a "Loyal BioWare Fan" tag in my signature lightly.
You are correct in that, ultimately, this is BioWare's website/forum and we are simply guests here. They have every right to change course from past actions and change policy. If they decide to move forward and tell our group to pack up and take it elsewhere, we will do so - regretfully, but quietly and without drama. There will be no Hold The Lines or ridiculous red-green-blue cupcake-level foot-stamping from me, certainly, and I'd hope not from anyone in my group. We'll move, if needed, and while I can't speak for the rest of them, I know I will always continue to be an active and helpful member of the community here and actively participate in the on-topic discussions, no matter if my off-topic things end up having to be elsewhere on the web.
I am sorry to all if my outspoken nature trampled in places it shouldn't have. I really didn't mean harm or combativeness by it. I just wanted to provide my viewpoint and feelings regarding the issue.
I know it's just my words too, but when I say I can understand and empathize that it can suck to have something you enjoyed removed, that yeah that sucks. If anything I'd say you're simply invested and don't want to lose a good thing that you really enjoyed. This is a human response and I don't judge you for it.
My impressions of your (and most) posts on this topic is mostly just a degree of conveying disappointment, but no real sense of being unfair, unreasonable, hostile, or anything like that. And it's important for me to read it because in spite of me earlier saying "If it were up to me, no groups! 
" comes from my own perspective of how I use the internet in my leisure time, the visibility I had on issues with the previous system, which all colour my experience. I can at least gain your perspectives which can alter my perceptions on stuff like this.
For instance, the idea of someone making a group as a courtesy (i.e. my friends and I often have particular types of conversations and they dominate the off topic section, we'll move those here instead) is something that even No Groups Allan™ can say "hey thanks, that's appreciated." Now, if someone feels that they need to run to make a group to avoid harassment, it's less that No Groups Allan™ doesn't want you to be able to talk about some things... and more that I'm much more concerned that there's an issue where BioWare fans are having a negative experience and need to create a separate, safe space... when ideally I'd really like for the whole forum to be a place where people can be reasonably safe (I may be naively ideal here... but I hope not). That you were attacked for liking ME3 is a failure on us to provide you with an environment where you aren't subjected to that.
If a lot of groups were created as symptoms to the BSN problems (i.e. finding safe space), then maybe a brief hiccup in our standard conventions and workflows can cause a bit of a positive shift. At the same time though, maybe No Group Allan™ underestimates some of the positive aspects of groups too and it's still useful for me to get these perspectives as they help me advocate certain positions if I ever talk with the online staff about potential concerns I have.
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