69 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

Also I would suspect that it would be against Biowares interests to host groups who's only existence is to trash their games and or other posters. Not saying that criticism isn't valid or anything, but when I see certain posters do nothing but say all Biowares games suck, even DA:O or ME, or earlier popular titles I do question why they remain on a site devoted to those games. It's a bit like showing up at a wedding and loudly proclaiming that getting married is dumb, and the people getting married are dumb for participating in such a ritual.

I understand people wanting to hang around because of friends and lulz but i guess it's Biowares prerogative to insist those people 'move along' would you say that's the case?

 

That wasn't "general" use of the groups though.  I realize what you're stating - since I was aware of a few groups who actively sought to actively put down others, but again, that's why I didn't feel comfortable joining groups like that.  It's like blaming a few small cases and thinking every group is like that, it reminds me of why a Mod closed the ME3 romance threads, you know - being unbiased and all.  

I'm not going to be a hypocrite and say I didn't once join a few groups like that because I did, but after a while, I just didn't like the vibes it was giving to me, so I left.  I believe most groups were more than friendly and actively still spoke about either, the Mass Effect's MP, or older games, theories from certain games, etc - but like I said before, there is only so much you can speak of without crossing old topics again, which is what forums and groups tend to do when there is no new content to frequent themselves in.  

[Bugsie]

I agree about there really is so much to talk about before you're rehashing old topics. And there's only so much speculating on new games you can do if you're only drip fed information. Off topic, for want of a better term, 'flows' from a group of people just hanging around together and getting to know each other.

As far as groups, and those particular groups existing only to be antagonistic to others or to. Bioware, I think it was as Allan says, a few spoiled it for all. Their implosion (ie people realising after a while it's not that much fun and leaving or disbanding) can't be a relied upon to moderate themselves out of existence. Which is a shame because so many other groups exist to talk Bioware or it's characters and are very good at self moderating and generally acting like 'good citizens' of the BSN.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

The groups have fostered a great deal of positivity in the Forums, and I don't agree with the idea that getting rid of them is going to make it "friendlier."

 

I am aware of some of the problems related to groups, and I understand the concerns there, but I think there are many reasonable compromises that can be achieved before the extreme solution of severely restricting groups.

 

There are many friendships that developed from rivalries in the forums, often because the feed or groups allowed those people to interact with each other about something that they can connect over, rather than whatever "on topic" argument they were having in a forum. This often rebounds into making them more empathetic and civil with each other when they are in the forums.

 

When it comes to PMs and groups and the feed, I have been involved many, many times now in the lives of people I barely knew, observing situations where people in crisis were able to be helped through the social outlets available on BSN. I don't make this point as though BioWare or EA are somehow required to be socially responsible, but because the positive community actions that foster good will and kindness on BSN are, in part, a result of the social interactions that occur in groups and on people's feeds.

 

While there is negative, there is positive, as well. Acting in the extreme - by reacting only to the negative - is not healthy. It's not healthy for people, and it's not healthy for corporations, either.

 

There are compromises that allow for the social and positive elements of groups, while still allowing for the moderation necessary to prevent abuse of the group system.

[Billy-the-Squid]

I think it was you that created the thread, but it's not referred to the BioWare Social Network anymore.  Yes, I think the old intention was to create a more social space, but it seems as though keeping that degree of focus was not in the cards.

 

 

I understand that that just outright sucks for a lot of people that relied on that convenience, but if the attempt at doing a social site was ultimately concluded as not being a good idea going forward (for whatever reason), I don't think it's relevant to point out that the old site was called a Social network given that it's no longer referred to as that.

 

 

The feed was, unfortunately, anything but friendly a lot of the time.  I had to start actively removing friends (which caused all sorts of extra drama when people assumed I was dropping them for other reasons) because of a lot of the outright uncomfortable things I saw in them.  It's doubly awkward because I tried to be open as a developer for people who wanted quicker access to hanging out with me and following my posts.

 

Sure, it's "all fun and friendly" when it's a poster and their friends bad mouthing a fellow forum poster or a moderator or even BioWare itself... but I consider it to be a fundamental issue with the old site.  And yes, I understand that it means that some people ruined it for everyone.

 

On the very last day I saw people literally going over to someone else's profile to continue a thread fight on that person's status update.

 

I think that's a learning curve you've completed now. Being open as a dev is great, yet some posters are not going to get on at all. I restricted my feed as I don't have the patience for drama and speak my mind with all the subtlety of a brick at times. 

 

Now, pushing people who are anathema to each other into the same forum without the benefit of groups acting as "neutral corners" is just asking for an outright spat between opposing factions throughout the forum, and yes, good luck moderating it, I wouldn't want to. Frankly I'm surprised Priestly didn't lockdown the romance forum earlier on the BSN, I would have.

 

I mean I thought it was hilarious watching them bicker over nothing,I'm still not entirely sure what happened, but there's no accounting for my sense of humour, after that, the discussions still continued, but were restricted to groups, to the benefit of everyone's sanity, given that the people whom were attacking each other were removed from one another's proximity.

 

As to the content of what was posted in other groups I'm not sure how Meirzen's "safety" applies to it, I only frequented one or two, where the discussions revolved around games outside of Biowares, political discussions (not allowed on the forums) and general discussion about whatever took a member's fancy. So I have no idea what was being posted in some groups that made you or other mods iffy, but given some of the screen caps I've seen by certain posters, I have a feeling things of a graphic nature were popping up now and again.

 

Edit:

 

And didn't the mods already have moderation powers and could peer into any group before? So if it was becoming an issue why wasn't the group disbanded and the offenders banned, you already had the authority to do so. Hene the arbitrary and somewhat pointless nature to restrict off topic discussion in  grps. If it couldn't be done effectively then, to the point that it was causing "safety" issues, is it actually going to be enforceable now?

[swirlwind]

The "toxic" environment was there is you sought it out and overly exaggerated.  

 

To be clear, what I mean by toxicity is intentionally trolling (otherwise serious) threads and resorting to sometimes truly vicious ad hominem attacks, which was widespread at least on the ME3 forums and in many of the relationship or character focused threads in the DA forums. In fairness, I haven't been to the forums for at least 1,5 years now except to sometimes check on the official information posts made by devs. I left because it had become obvious that the forums weren't moderated to the degree I would have preferred, and any real discussion was pointless because of the trolling. Considering I migrated from the BioWare forums that existed before the BSN came along, it's not like I gave up on the forums lightly.

 

I'm merely suggesting that it's not in the community's best interest to throw away the baby with the bath water. Yes, moderating the forums more strictly is definitely a direction I support. I even support moderating groups. I just don't support banning groups simply for discussing other than BioWare-related topics.

[DragonRacer]

To be clear, what I mean by toxicity is intentionally trolling (otherwise serious) threads and resorting to sometimes truly vicious ad hominem attacks, which was widespread at least on the ME3 forums and in many of the relationship or character focused threads in the DA forums. In fairness, I haven't been to the forums for at least 1,5 years now except to sometimes check on the official information posts made by devs. I left because it had become obvious that the forums weren't moderated to the degree I would have preferred, and any real discussion was pointless because of the trolling. Considering I migrated from the BioWare forums that existed before the BSN came along, it's not like I gave up on the forums lightly.

 

I'm merely suggesting that it's not in the community's best interest to throw away the baby with the bath water. Yes, moderating the forums more strictly is definitely a direction I support. I even support moderating groups. I just don't support banning groups simply for discussing other than BioWare-related topics.

 

It appears I have reached my "like" quota for the day, but I would have "liked" this. 

 

Especially since I was conversing with a friend via PM about this subject and I literally had just used that bolded line as an example of something I wanted to say in here, were I not already afraid the decision has already been made and it might fall on deaf ears. 

 

I mean, really. We both said the same thing about the same subject (in different areas) at almost the exact same time. That struck me as being meaningful, somehow.

[Billy-the-Squid]

To be clear, what I mean by toxicity is intentionally trolling (otherwise serious) threads and resorting to sometimes truly vicious ad hominem attacks, which was widespread at least on the ME3 forums and in many of the relationship or character focused threads in the DA forums. In fairness, I haven't been to the forums for at least 1,5 years now except to sometimes check on the official information posts made by devs. I left because it had become obvious that the forums weren't moderated to the degree I would have preferred, and any real discussion was pointless because of the trolling. Considering I migrated from the BioWare forums that existed before the BSN came along, it's not like I gave up on the forums lightly.

 

I'm merely suggesting that it's not in the community's best interest to throw away the baby with the bath water. Yes, moderating the forums more strictly is definitely a direction I support. I even support moderating groups. I just don't support banning groups simply for discussing other than BioWare-related topics.

 

Ah yes "trolls" while there were several wind up merchants, do you really think that they had that much influence and power to bring the entire forum into disrepute? You give them too much credit. 

 

If you want to find the real culprit of why the BSN became so toxic, just hold up a mirror to the posters in those threads. There's the answer. Outspoken, obtuse and self righteous in the extreme, yet incapable of understanding any point of view but their own, you don't need trolls when that takes place, it courts explosive bickering by it's very nature. I think also there has also been a certain amount of indulgence on behalf of the mods beforehand which fostered that kind of behaviour by allowing a proliferation of certain threads to be created going over the same well trodden ground, with the same posters repeating themselves ad nauseum, when it should have been restricted to a single thread or groups. 

 

I think attributing that to trolls is a bit of a get out clause.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

To be clear, what I mean by toxicity is intentionally trolling (otherwise serious) threads and resorting to sometimes truly vicious ad hominem attacks, which was widespread at least on the ME3 forums and in many of the relationship or character focused threads in the DA forums. In fairness, I haven't been to the forums for at least 1,5 years now except to sometimes check on the official information posts made by devs. I left because it had become obvious that the forums weren't moderated to the degree I would have preferred, and any real discussion was pointless because of the trolling. Considering I migrated from the BioWare forums that existed before the BSN came along, it's not like I gave up on the forums lightly.

 

I'm merely suggesting that it's not in the community's best interest to throw away the baby with the bath water. Yes, moderating the forums more strictly is definitely a direction I support. I even support moderating groups. I just don't support banning groups simply for discussing other than BioWare-related topics.

 

It appears I have reached my "like" quota for the day, but I would have "liked" this. 

 

Especially since I was conversing with a friend via PM about this subject and I literally had just used that bolded line as an example of something I wanted to say in here, were I not already afraid the decision has already been made and it might fall on deaf ears. 

 

I mean, really. We both said the same thing about the same subject (in different areas) at almost the exact same time. That struck me as being meaningful, somehow.

 

I liked both, as I haven't reached mine.

 

I will add to swirlwind's point by saying that eliminating groups (in practical terms) would result in more of the Forum's friendly, helpful posters leaving, than the ones who enjoy fighting in the forums. Trolls don't need groups to be able to do what they do, but friends do need groups to have reasons to populate these forums in between major game releases. These are things to consider, as well.

[GreyLycanTrope]

I find giving us an option to have groups but limiting their spectrum to strictly on topic discussion is a bit redundant when we already have a wide range of forum dedicated to on topic discussion. Sure it's a "gaming community" but let's not forget to emphasize the "community" aspect of that phrase. Certain social interaction is needed to keep it going, and it's nice to have a place where you don't have to worry about offending anyone's spam sensor and can just have a bit of fun with friends without a topic being locked by overzealous mods. Groups are crucial for building respect and interaction amongst community members who might otherwise find themselves too often at opposing ends of a spectrum during discussions. I certainly wouldn't have made half the friends I have made if it wasn't for the various groups I have interacted with and the laid back social aspect is certainly what keeps me around this place more than the repeat/dead horse topics we keep getting during this period of little to no actual information on upcoming project.

[spirosz]

the laid back social aspect is certainly what keeps me around this place more than the repeat/dead horse topics we keep getting during this period of little to no actual information on upcoming project.

 

Exactly. 

[LPPrince]

(which caused all sorts of extra drama when people assumed I was dropping them for other reasons)

 

Hah, that reminds me. Now that we can see who visits our profiles, I randomly took a look once and noticed that BiowareMod01 paid my page a visit.

 

No warnings, no suspensions, no messages. Just a visit. hahaha

 

I think the assumptions people make will likely continue going forward, perhaps in different forms.

[Allan Schumacher]

I understand people wanting to hang around because of friends and lulz but i guess it's Biowares prerogative to insist those people 'move along' would you say that's the case?

 

You know, I'll concede that that could be a way of looking at it.  Though I mean, The Lobby is still filled with non-BioWare specific threads, because I think there's an understanding that not every single conversation will be directly about something BioWare related.  I'm not really a fan of something like MLP, but we have a huge thread about it.  And for some reason I'm more comfortable with the thread simply existing in the public sphere rather than in a private one like a group.  But that's my personal preference.

 

The way I sort of see it as BioWare forums may be more inclined on being a stop, rather than the stop for some people to spend their time on the internet.  And like I said, I know that losing that convenience is still a shake up and a pisser if it's something that you really liked and didn't feel needed changing.

 

The one other game forum I frequent is similar, although they broke down their Lobby into various sub groups such as one for Computer/Video games, one for pen and paper gaming, one for aspiring developers, and a catch all "Way off topic."  Maybe that's something that could happen if people want, as those topics are still have a stronger tie in with BioWare.  Just sort of less degrees of separation than an analysis of of the geopolitcal underpinnings of 18th century Africa!  At least that's the way I see it.

 

The worrisome part I have about hanging out "for lulz" in insular, private groupings is that IMO things can get "cliquey" (for lack of a better term) and cans of worms get opened when undeclared cold wars start.  Sort of like self-imposed segregation when maybe I just feel that there's better long term community health with some degree of intermingling.  Then again, this is a larger forum than the other game forum I frequent, so maybe what I think would work here doesn't scale as well.  I also do think it's kind of a problem (on us!) if people feel they need to disappear to a private group to discuss their favourite movies, for example.

[J4N3_M3]

The worrisome part I have about hanging out "for lulz" in insular, private groupings is that IMO things can get "cliquey" (for lack of a better term) and cans of worms get opened when undeclared cold wars start.  Sort of like self-imposed segregation when maybe I just feel that there's better long term community health with some degree of intermingling.  Then again, this is a larger forum than the other game forum I frequent, so maybe what I think would work here doesn't scale as well.  I also do think it's kind of a problem (on us!) if people feel they need to disappear to a private group to discuss their favourite movies, for example.

 

you are absolutely right about the whole cliquey thing. All groups do have a clique feel to it, especially those that have existed for +4 years and have a core group of active members. It is more than difficult to find a start there. On the other hand, many groups developed out of necessity because certain discussions in character threads had to be moved to groups, and people were asked to do so. That's how the Clans and the Appreciation groups started. And while in some the cliquey vibe might be a lot stronger than in others I do believe that this website overhaul actually is a great way to start fresh, to offer people a way in those groups to make new friends, and to make people like us who have been in groups for years appreciate the fact that new isn't something to be feared but to be embraced, and give us the chance to meet new people as well. 

 

As for the toxicity of the forum atmosphere, I am with you and Bugsie on this: a few did indeed spoil it for many others. Bugsie and I have often enough complained to each other how it's so exhausting to read on the main forums when it comes to certain topics. When you read through Jessica's AMA you can see actually some of that toxicity. People making smart-ass comments without pondering the implications and the consequences. It's like respect has been lost somewhere along the road. 

 

My conclusion from everything said so far is: Groups, yes. Keep off-topic discussion to a minimum as well as keeping all discussions civil and clean. Bioware will not lynch us for going off topic every now and then. Bioware will stamp down when off-topic takes the upper hand in a group. Did I conclude this correctly? 

[Allan Schumacher]

There are many friendships that developed from rivalries in the forums, often because the feed or groups allowed those people to interact with each other about something that they can connect over, rather than whatever "on topic" argument they were having in a forum. This often rebounds into making them more empathetic and civil with each other when they are in the forums.

 

 

I agree that interacting with those that may be rivals is often a good way of doing so.  Is this a situation then, where simply having public exposure would get people operating in the same space as others to develop that empathy?  In other words, that interpersonal interaction that would exist because a discussion thread is open and public, as opposed to hidden and segregated?  I mean, a difference that Jessica and I probably have is that I'm probably more open to off topic types of conversations.  I would just put them in off topic forums rather than private, segregated groups.

 

 

 

While there is negative, there is positive, as well. Acting in the extreme - by reacting only to the negative - is not healthy. It's not healthy for people, and it's not healthy for corporations, either.

 

 

Is there an objective way of assessing who is acting extreme?  Mostly a rhetorical question, since I don't think there is and it'd depend on what one's perspective is.  For example, I don't see BioWare moving to a forum that is a lot like other video game forums as a particularly extreme move.  But I don't think you'd agree with my perspective.

 

 

 

Now, pushing people who are anathema to each other into the same forum without the benefit of groups acting as "neutral corners" is just asking for an outright spat between opposing factions throughout the forum, and yes, good luck moderating it, I wouldn't want to. Frankly I'm surprised Priestly didn't lockdown the romance forum earlier on the BSN, I would have.

 

 

I think that this is definitely on BioWare (with help from you guys via reporting), and yeah there's probably going to be an adjustment period and I don't expect things to be rainbows and lollipops overnight.  I think it's also important to note that this software is infinitely better at doing things like ignoring antagonistic posters (literally infinitely better... in that you actually can), and so far the reporting and moderating functionality behind the scenes is also much, much better than the older BSN.

 

 

 

And didn't the mods already have moderation powers and could peer into any group before?

 

Actually I don't know if they did.  There were certainly groups that I could not see into (though I could still see the postings on the activity feeds and on people's walls, even though clicking on the link took me to a group I couldn't see).  And it's very unpleasant when I see people literally insulting me (for a variety of reasons, typically related to me trying to help out with forum moderation), or colluding against other posters.  I mean, a permanent ban from the BSN still allowed those posters to post status updates and take part on the community, even if in a limited capacity (something I don't consider good at all, and from what I understand was an intrinsic flaw with the software).

 

 

 

I will add to swirlwind's point by saying that eliminating groups (in practical terms) would result in more of the Forum's friendly, helpful posters leaving, than the ones who enjoy fighting in the forums.

 

 

That's fair logic and that may be.  We'll find out I suppose.  I think a counter point is also that if a friendly, helpful poster can retreat to a private group, then the public forum space could be made worse because the helpful people all took shelter somewhere else leaving mostly the more hostile people (or they still leave the forum altogether, which happened with a group of friends I met that I still chat with from time to time over IRC).  Ideally, we can make sure that the helpful people get the support that they need, whether through an improved reporting system or the ability to allow users better control over which posters they can see.

 

 

 

Hah, that reminds me. Now that we can see who visits our profiles, I randomly took a look once and noticed that BiowareMod01 paid my page a visit.

 

Well, I'm not the biggest fan of that particular feature either (the other forum I'm on that uses the same software also has that feature - I wonder if it's just on by default).

[swirlwind]

I think a counter point is also that if a friendly, helpful poster can retreat to a private group, then the public forum space could be made worse because the helpful people all took shelter somewhere else leaving mostly the more hostile people (or they still leave the forum altogether, which happened with a group of friends I met that I still chat with from time to time over IRC).  Ideally, we can make sure that the helpful people get the support that they need, whether through an improved reporting system or the ability to allow users better control over which posters they can see.

There seems to be a binary here that is getting in the way of what everyone is trying to say. Right now, as I understand it, BioWare are saying that groups that are built around or involve discussions that are not BioWare-related are unwanted, mainly because at least some groups in the old BSN contained seriously unacceptable behaviour, but also because they want a community that isn't fragmented. I think both of these points are completely valid, but they don't really address the issue that I have with (potentially) removing groups that don't center around BioWare. I would argue that groups serve a different purpose altogether than the forums, and if you remove that purpose, you will remove a part of your community.

 

Any long-lasting community will inevitably have smaller cliques within it. This is simply because friendships are formed through shared experiences, and some people gravitate towards each other more naturally than others. If some people have been taking part in the community for several years, they will know each other at least to an extent, and will act more familiarly towards each other than say, a random new poster they've never met before. This can be seen both in the general forums as well as in groups. As an example, I still keep in touch with people who were a part of the community when NWN was a new game, but since I left the forums a few years ago, I know next to no one who still posts there actively, even though they are every bit as much a part of the BioWare community as I am. Groups are what allowed me to keep in touch with the "old beards", and I'm still actively involved in one that has existed for a few years now, but which is centered around an MMO we all play. We have a thread about ME3 MP as well, since that's something some of us still play on a weekly basis, but beyond that, there's little talk about BioWare games right now, mostly because there is nothing new to talk about. I imagine this will change as release dates come closer.

 

Except right now we're wondering if we should just find another site to host our group, because the new rules make us outlaws. I want to be clear that there is not, nor has there ever been, any kind of abuse or breaking of the (old) site rules in our group. We are a bunch of people who never would have met each other if it weren't for BioWare, but like I said before, BW games don't pop out every year, and there's only so much you can say about little tidbits of information in between releases. I don't know how much we contribute to the community as a whole, since many of us don't post in the forums much, but we've been around for a long time and we keep buying the games and talking about them when there is something to talk about. I would also imagine we're not alone in our situation.

 

My example is one of many. I've been a part of many kinds of groups in the old BSN: some where built around specific BW games or their characters, some were LGBT support groups because those topics tended to be the most targeted by trolls in the old forums, some were social groups built around people more than topics for people who knew each other from the old forums. They were about having your own corner in a large and very diverse community, and I don't believe they took away from the community as a whole even though some of us were less active on the forums. I don't think of groups so much as retreats from the forums because forums are a bad place (although admittedly that has been a part of the reason why groups were so popular in the old BSN), but as places that can foster deeper connections between people than forums allow for.

 

I think it's great the forums are getting a facelift. Maybe I'll even wander back into the game-specific ones a bit more often now. But the main reason I stick around between releases is the group of people I've made friends with over the years, and if we need to take it elsewhere because we're no longer welcome here, well. I just wish it wasn't because some people abused the old BSN so now we all have to pay for that. Like Allan said, the new site allows for much more effective moderating, so would it be unthinkable to just moderate unacceptable behaviour instead of moderating away everything that isn't directly about BioWare?

[Allan Schumacher]

This is a good post, but it's getting late.  Unfortunately it's been flagged as read.... remind me to look it over in more detail!

 

Cheers.

 

Allan

[DragonRacer]

On the very last day I saw people literally going over to someone else's profile to continue a thread fight on that person's status update.

 

I've been posting on these forums for a few years now. In my opinion (and I could be wrong) and from my observation (which I admit is purely my own and, therefore, subjective and biased), I never saw status update fights until AFTER the PM change on the old BSN. Before, when you could PM anybody (unless they blocked you), moderators would tell off-topic banter or fights to "take it to PM" and, for the large part, it appeared that occurred. That way, people could duke it out in private, not air their dirty laundry, and hopefully come to some type of truce. After the PM system was changed so that you had to be friends before you could send a PM, that changed things. If you are having a heated disagreement with someone, adding them as a friend is not a natural inclination. THAT was when I saw fights continue on until a thread was closed... then they'd sometimes start a brand new thread just to continue the fight... and/or move the fight to status updates/newsfeeds/wall comments.

 

Honestly, I blame that on the PM change at the time more than anything else.

 

 

 

That's fair logic and that may be.  We'll find out I suppose.  I think a counter point is also that if a friendly, helpful poster can retreat to a private group, then the public forum space could be made worse because the helpful people all took shelter somewhere else leaving mostly the more hostile people (or they still leave the forum altogether, which happened with a group of friends I met that I still chat with from time to time over IRC).  Ideally, we can make sure that the helpful people get the support that they need, whether through an improved reporting system or the ability to allow users better control over which posters they can see.

 

 

I consider myself a friendly, helpful poster. I believe the bulk of my posting history can back up that claim. And while there is a private group that I love visiting daily that is populated by lots of friends - and new friends made via said group - I have not retreated from the overall forums. I consider the groups to be supportive of my time here and help keep me here longer and visiting the forums even during periods of not-having-much-to-discuss, like right now between game releases.

 

Now, your argument is that the Off-Topic Lobby exists, so why would one want to be in a group instead of posting there? My honest opinion (and, again, only my opinion)? I find the Off-Topic lobby itself to be clique-ish. Most of the regular folks posting there, I believe, have been doing so frequently and for many years. Sometimes, when someone viewed as "one of those ME3 MP players", it is not always well-received. A few of them have even come into the ME3 MP forum in the past to express disgust at our existence/perceived group behavior (as if we're a hive mind), etc. I also feel the ME3 MP players are maybe a little different group of people as - unlike a lot of the rest of the forum - most of us have actually played games with each other (specifically, a BioWare game!), chatted over the mic together, etc. That has bred, I feel, somewhat closer and stronger relationships, maybe a little smaller and more intimate than the forum as a whole. When ME3 MPers wanted to discuss something off-topic with that group of individuals they'd formed friendships with (both here on the forum and in-game), the advice was to make a group for it.

 

And we did.

 

And now it's like we're being punished for that.

 

But my general feeling from the overall tone and what's being said in this thread is that the decision has already been made. Our impending demise is inevitable. There is no room for us to explain our point of view and hope for reconsideration (like what happened for Projects on the old site). I guess I owe a thanks for the heads up, at least. As much as I would like to spend the majority of my time here (like I have the past few years now), it seems time for me to start looking at free forum software on the Internet and spend some time recreating a group once again so that ME3 MPers can continue to be off-topic in a place they feel welcomed and bounce back and forth between that separate, non-BioWare forum and the actual BioWare forum here for public discussion. That's a far more tedious solution than I was hoping would come out of this discussion, but that is how life goes, I suppose.

 

[swirlwind]

But my general feeling from the overall tone and what's being said in this thread is that the decision has already been made. Our impending demise is inevitable. There is no room for us to explain our point of view and hope for reconsideration (like what happened for Projects on the old site).

 

Don't give up just yet! You may be right, and if so, I too find it regrettable. But I remain hopeful that considering this policy change pretty much happened overnight from the community's perspective, there might still be room for negotiation as long as we can articulate our viewpoints well enough. I can't believe BioWare actually wants to get rid of a portion of the community that is not disruptive in any way. I think ours is simply a point of view they hadn't considered before the decision was made, or at least that is my hope.

[Sundance31us]

 

Honestly, I blame that on the PM change at the time more than anything else.

 

 

By the same token the PM change happened because certain members were abusing the privilege or should I say using them (PMs) to abuse.

[DragonRacer]

Don't give up just yet! You may be right, and if so, I too find it regrettable. But I remain hopeful that considering this policy change pretty much happened overnight from the community's perspective, there might still be room for negotiation as long as we can articulate our viewpoints well enough. I can't believe BioWare actually wants to get rid of a portion of the community that is not disruptive in any way. I think ours is simply a point of view they hadn't considered before the decision was made, or at least that is my hope.

 

I hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, unfortunately.

 

And to sort of follow-up my post with something I meant to include in it earlier, to address Allan's point about using places with than BioWare's space, using other social media sites isn't a really nice or good option. Steam seems to have most of the overlap of group members, but Steam only has PMs and chat rooms, from what I see. That's... not at all like what we have here, where groups are basically miniature versions of the bulletin board/message board format, where someone can post a topic and others can come by, read it, and post their own responses. Chat rooms have an entirely different nature and serve a different function from that, in my opinion. And not everyone is on Facebook. Not everyone is on Twitter. Not everyone is on Tumblr. But everyone IS already HERE. 

 

 

By the same token the PM change happened because certain members were abusing the privilege or should I say using them (PMs) to abuse.

 

While I don't disagree with that, I would argue that anyone who really wants to cause problems can abuse anything - the group system, the PM system, the forum system itself. I don't think chaining down these systems is the solution, but rather making sure the block user system works.

 

I had a few individuals who were PMing me and they were going nowhere but bad places, so I blocked them. I never received a PM from any of them again. That seems more reasonable than changing the entire system due to a few malcontents. Block the malcontents. Ban the malcontents. But don't punish the entire community for the stupidity of a few.

 

Again, just my opinion. Maybe the block feature wasn't working for others like it was for me.

[ruggly]

Well, I'm not the biggest fan of that particular feature either (the other forum I'm on that uses the same software also has that feature - I wonder if it's just on by default).

 

It was off by default for me here.  But then I have a horrible curiosity to know who visits my profile, so I turned it on.

[ratzerman]

 

But my general feeling from the overall tone and what's being said in this thread is that the decision has already been made. Our impending demise is inevitable. There is no room for us to explain our point of view and hope for reconsideration (like what happened for Projects on the old site). 

 

That's my impression too. I honestly wish they had just eliminated groups entirely, instead of creating this uneasy middle ground where they continue to exist, yet cannot be used for the purpose they were created for.

[DragonRacer]

That's my impression too. I honestly wish they had just eliminated groups entirely, instead of creating this uneasy middle ground where they continue to exist, yet cannot be used for the purpose they were created for.

 

I'm a little bit exhausted by it, to be perfectly honest.

 

You spend time and effort creating an awesome group that doesn't break any forum rules other than having some discussions that are not 100%-BioWare-related all the time. It's something fun to do since ME3 MP support is long gone and DA:I is still in the works, so there is a lull with nothing BioWare-related to discuss other than rehashing the same old, tired subjects/debates over and over and over and over again.

 

Then, we move the forum over and are told groups have to be recreated. That's fine, totally understandable. So, we spend time and effort again rebuilding the group and re-inviting all the old members.

 

And now to be faced with what seems an almost certain prospect of having to rebuild. Again. Totally off-site. And re-invite people again to a new place where they'll have to make new accounts. 

 

I'm just tired.

 

In a world where we think "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is a positive trait, what is about to happen is "the sins of a few outweighing the happiness of the many".

 

 

[J4N3_M3]

to be honest, I think people are making this more of an issue than it is. It's not like the world is going to end if groups have to abide by a stricter set of rules than before. Some clarification is nice as to what they are actually saying (still waiting on a statement to my last question here) but other than some long w-o-ts about this subject I don't see why something should be tiring. It's not like we're actually packing tons of boxes and stuff to move to a different place where we have to carry everything up 5 flights of stairs, unpack, get settled, and then have to do it all over again. It's just a group on the internet, so if it makes you tired you might want to step away from your computer and rethink your priorities