69 réponses à ce sujet

[jwalker]

Can we have an official answer about the OP's question? I'd like to have a simple yes/no.
 
Thank you.
 
Sincerely,

So... can we have an answer ?

Is off-topic converstations in private groups allowed or not ?

[DragonRacer]

to be honest, I think people are making this more of an issue than it is. It's not like the world is going to end if groups have to abide by a stricter set of rules than before. Some clarification is nice as to what they are actually saying (still waiting on a statement to my last question here) but other than some long w-o-ts about this subject I don't see why something should be tiring. It's not like we're actually packing tons of boxes and stuff to move to a different place where we have to carry everything up 5 flights of stairs, unpack, get settled, and then have to do it all over again. It's just a group on the internet, so if it makes you tired you might want to step away from your computer and rethink your priorities

 

Someone can be tired of doing something without it being a physical sort of tired, you know. 

 

Perhaps a better word would have been "frustrated" or "annoyed" or "disappointed". It all equates to the same general feeling, in my opinion.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

For the record, there is no evidence that Groups have caused friendly, helpful posters to retreat from the forums.

 

Quite the opposite, in fact. I have observed that many posters who had retreated from the forums made a return when they were offered the opportunity to socialize in a positive environment, which was tangentially attached to the forums. I was one of them.

 

Personally, I would have left in the summer of 2013, if not for the groups. I continue to make an effort to be helpful on the site. I do not typically socialize in the Forums, because it is against the rules to do so. If the new paradigm is enforced, and there is nowhere left to socialize, many of us will lose the motivation to stay. While this was an expected and planned for outcome, I see it as a short-sighted and self-defeating one, because it will harm the community irreparably.

 

It is not an improvement to make the community feel unwanted and unwelcome, and when the ones who feel a sense of community here move on when it is gone, the loss of that positive community spirit will be felt by those that remain, further diminishing the motivation for people to populate the forums between major game releases.

 

The groups are often populated by people who have spent many hundreds of hours adding value to BioWare's products, in the form of volunteer bug-testing, and testing and explaining mechanics. A lot of that work, and the associated community-building, occurred in groups. Throwing the groups away to respond to the minority - who would best be dealt with through moderation - is doing far more harm than good.

[GreyLycanTrope]

By the same token the PM change happened because certain members were abusing the privilege or should I say using them (PMs) to abuse.

It's not like there was no block function on the old site to prevent said abuse.

[Ohnenick]

After reading through this thread (at least the last 3 pages) I can't help but chime in.

 

My impression is that Bioware is no longer intersted in the social aspect of the site. Well, from a purely business perspective I guess one can understand it, as it generates no revenue and you can't really measure its benefit towards customer loyalty. Just please don't insult me (us?) by trying to give us euphemistical "we do it for your own good" reasons for it.

 

90% of the reason I am still visiting this forum is for the groups. I can't see me bother coming here often for the last 10% in the future.

 

I have found friends in those groups and shared personal things (including pics) with them that we would never have on a main forum, where I have no idea about who reads them. I always admired Bioware for providing their fans (and - yes - customers) with such an opportunity to bond and socialize. It made it special in a very charming way.

 

Now it seems, company policy has changed. That is regrettable. It won't stop me from buying your products, if the quality is right, but it certainly will show that Bioware is just a company like any other. Being a part of something special was nice as long as it lasted, but here too all good things have to come to an end it seems.

 

You certainly won't see me online for much longer in that case though...

[AresKeith]

By the same token the PM change happened because certain members were abusing the privilege or should I say using them (PMs) to abuse.

 

 

Any system can be abused

 

I can almost guarantee that the "ignore" feature is gonna be abused by people  

[LPPrince]

Well, I'm not the biggest fan of that particular feature either (the other forum I'm on that uses the same software also has that feature - I wonder if it's just on by default).

 

I actually believe its off by default and you have the option to turn it on.

[spirosz]

 

The groups are often populated by people who have spent many hundreds of hours adding value to BioWare's products, in the form of volunteer bug-testing, and testing and explaining mechanics. A lot of that work, and the associated community-building, occurred in groups. Throwing the groups away to respond to the minority - who would best be dealt with through moderation - is doing far more harm than good.

 

That's how I see it as well. 

[The Don's Hound]

I agree. I thought that when I signed up to talk to others, in a much smaller locale mind you, I would actually get to, you know, talk to those people. BioWare games are great, and I probably own more of them than most, but they are few and far inbetween, and more importantly, they are already being discussed multitudes over. I agree with a lot of the points made here, Finally, I'm wondering how removing one of the most favored features of the site could possibly make anything more friendly. Removing the feed just a day and a half ago most certainly didn't. Removing the polls didn't make anything more friendly. How is removing groups and placing even more restrictions going to make anything friendly? Being passive aggressive to each other is hardly being friendly. 

Agreed.

 

If anything, that poll/blog/album thing just made people get more irritated, taking away what's left isn't a good thing to do to us, a group should really be a place to let us talk about whatever, especially if it's not a group confined to one topic.

 

Ah well. Not like anything will change.

[Sundance31us]

Is the OP's question for purely for clarification reasons or was someone actually prevented from starting a group? I ask because there's a Tolkien group currently discussing Hobbits and a few other groups that may not necessarily be BW related.

[swirlwind]

I don't know that anyone's group has yet been banned or contacted because they're not BioWare-centric enough. That said, it would be great to have a definite answer on the policy before we rebuild everything here.

 

I would also urge people to keep the discussion about this as neutral as possible. This isn't and shouldn't be about entitlement -- BioWare doesn't *owe* us the type of groups the old BSN offered us. If having them no longer fits into their plans for the community, it's sad for us, but ultimately entirely understandable. Right now it would just be nice to get a definite answer, since I at least feel we've pretty much argued our case.

[Bugsie]

Is the OP's question for purely for clarification reasons or was someone actually prevented from starting a group? I ask because there's a Tolkien group currently discussing Hobbits and a few other groups that may not necessarily be BW related.

Merely for clarification.

The worrisome part I have about hanging out "for lulz" in insular, private groupings is that IMO things can get "cliquey" (for lack of a better term) and cans of worms get opened when undeclared cold wars start. Sort of like self-imposed segregation when maybe I just feel that there's better long term community health with some degree of intermingling. Then again, this is a larger forum than the other game forum I frequent, so maybe what I think would work here doesn't scale as well. I also do think it's kind of a problem (on us!) if people feel they need to disappear to a private group to discuss their favourite movies, for example.

In regard to cliques, yes I guess that's inevitable! I don't know how you overcome that. Regular posters in one thread who hang out there all the time are bound to form a clique and as Dragonracer mentioned, the off topic on the main forum is also a bit cliquish. Also I've seen a hell of a lot of passive aggression in groups, more than what happens in the main forums. However a well moderated group jumps on it quick, the forums... Not so fast at responding.

The way I sort of see it as BioWare forums may be more inclined on being a stop, rather than the stop for some people to spend their time on the internet. And like I said, I know that losing that convenience is still a shake up and a pisser if it's something that you really liked and didn't feel needed changing.

It is sort of like that for me anyway. But there others who seem to spend a lot of time here they're the ones likely to be more upset about it.

I just want to add, Alan, I understand how staff feel about some of the things being said about them in private groups having seen it myself only the other day. It felt somewhat toxic, yes out of view, but if that staff member ever came across it they might be a bit pissed off (or upset even.)

I guess in relation to my original question, off topic is discouraged but won't be policed heavily within the groups unless it's something serious, is that correct?

[Sundance31us]

Merely for clarification.
 

 

Thank you for answering.

The reason I asked is that DragonRacer (post #49) talked about creating and then recreating a group at least once before; I wasn't sure that was here or on a previous version of the forum.

[DragonRacer]

Thank you for answering.

The reason I asked is that DragonRacer (post #49) talked about creating and then recreating a group at least once before; I wasn't sure that was here or on a previous version of the forum.

 

Created a group on the old BSN.

 

Had to recreate here because ALL groups had to be recreated here (since they didn't transfer over from the old BSN).

 

There have been no recreations due to a group being axed by BioWare or anything. Not at this point in time, at least.

[DragonRacer]

I don't know that anyone's group has yet been banned or contacted because they're not BioWare-centric enough. That said, it would be great to have a definite answer on the policy before we rebuild everything here.
 
I would also urge people to keep the discussion about this as neutral as possible. This isn't and shouldn't be about entitlement -- BioWare doesn't *owe* us the type of groups the old BSN offered us. If having them no longer fits into their plans for the community, it's sad for us, but ultimately entirely understandable. Right now it would just be nice to get a definite answer, since I at least feel we've pretty much argued our case.

 
I want to apologize to everyone in the thread - especially Allan and any other BioWare employees - if any of my postsyesterday came off as combative or entitled. That was not at all what I was trying to imply or portray. I merely wanted to present my case for supporting ALL types of groups like they were in the past. To provide my view and feelings on it. As an Aries, that sometimes means that my presentation comes off as... rougher, perhaps, than I mean it to.
 
I'm the very last person to feel BioWare owes me anything. Quite the opposite: I feel I will always owe BioWare my eternal gratitude and loyalty for the heart they showed me two years ago. I do not wear a "Loyal BioWare Fan" tag in my signature lightly.

 

You are correct in that, ultimately, this is BioWare's website/forum and we are simply guests here. They have every right to change course from past actions and change policy. If they decide to move forward and tell our group to pack up and take it elsewhere, we will do so - regretfully, but quietly and without drama. There will be no Hold The Lines or ridiculous red-green-blue cupcake-level foot-stamping from me, certainly, and I'd hope not from anyone in my group. We'll move, if needed, and while I can't speak for the rest of them, I know I will always continue to be an active and helpful member of the community here and actively participate in the on-topic discussions, no matter if my off-topic things end up having to be elsewhere on the web.

 

I am sorry to all if my outspoken nature trampled in places it shouldn't have. I really didn't mean harm or combativeness by it. I just wanted to provide my viewpoint and feelings regarding the issue.

[J4N3_M3]

 
I want to apologize to everyone in the thread - especially Allan and any other BioWare employees - if any of my postsyesterday came off as combative or entitled. That was not at all what I was trying to imply or portray. I merely wanted to present my case for supporting ALL types of groups like they were in the past. To provide my view and feelings on it. As an Aries, that sometimes means that my presentation comes off as... rougher, perhaps, than I mean it to.
 
I'm the very last person to feel BioWare owes me anything. Quite the opposite: I feel I will always owe BioWare my eternal gratitude and loyalty for the heart they showed me two years ago. I do not wear a "Loyal BioWare Fan" tag in my signature lightly.

 

You are correct in that, ultimately, this is BioWare's website/forum and we are simply guests here. They have every right to change course from past actions and change policy. If they decide to move forward and tell our group to pack up and take it elsewhere, we will do so - regretfully, but quietly and without drama. There will be no Hold The Lines or ridiculous red-green-blue cupcake-level foot-stamping from me, certainly, and I'd hope not from anyone in my group. We'll move, if needed, and while I can't speak for the rest of them, I know I will always continue to be an active and helpful member of the community here and actively participate in the on-topic discussions, no matter if my off-topic things end up having to be elsewhere on the web.

 

I am sorry to all if my outspoken nature trampled in places it shouldn't have. I really didn't mean harm or combativeness by it. I just wanted to provide my viewpoint and feelings regarding the issue.

 

 

      

[Ohnenick]

 
I want to apologize to everyone in the thread - especially Allan and any other BioWare employees - if any of my postsyesterday came off as combative or entitled. That was not at all what I was trying to imply or portray. I merely wanted to present my case for supporting ALL types of groups like they were in the past. To provide my view and feelings on it. As an Aries, that sometimes means that my presentation comes off as... rougher, perhaps, than I mean it to.
 
I'm the very last person to feel BioWare owes me anything. Quite the opposite: I feel I will always owe BioWare my eternal gratitude and loyalty for the heart they showed me two years ago. I do not wear a "Loyal BioWare Fan" tag in my signature lightly.

 

You are correct in that, ultimately, this is BioWare's website/forum and we are simply guests here. They have every right to change course from past actions and change policy. If they decide to move forward and tell our group to pack up and take it elsewhere, we will do so - regretfully, but quietly and without drama. There will be no Hold The Lines or ridiculous red-green-blue cupcake-level foot-stamping from me, certainly, and I'd hope not from anyone in my group. We'll move, if needed, and while I can't speak for the rest of them, I know I will always continue to be an active and helpful member of the community here and actively participate in the on-topic discussions, no matter if my off-topic things end up having to be elsewhere on the web.

 

I am sorry to all if my outspoken nature trampled in places it shouldn't have. I really didn't mean harm or combativeness by it. I just wanted to provide my viewpoint and feelings regarding the issue.

 

That was a very thoughtful post DR, respect for that. I for one didn't read any of your posts as demanding or aggressive.

 

I don't have any such experiences as you with Bioware, but I considered myself a fan exactly because they offered the community so many things above and beyond what your run of the mill company would. And a big part of that was a Social site that was much about, but not restricted to, their products. The whole social aspect gave me the feeling - and language barrier makes it impossible for me to not sound cheesy here, sorry -  that they actually cared for the community beyond the whole sell-them-our-stuff-and-keep-them-hooked thing. Your story just validates that impression.

 

They are in no way forced to do that, nor are we entitled to anything beyond a working product and customer service!

 

However, there is a but coming: If Bioware as a company chooses to change their policy in that regard - which is their right, inconvenient and disappointing as that may be for many of us -, they will have to grow accustomed to having more "customers" than "fans" in the future.

[Bugsie]

@DragonRacer, I didn't think you came off as combative or entitled. It's something you feel strongly about and you put that forward relatively eloquently and impassioned. I suspect many others feel as you do. All good!

I think it's true what you say though: expect the best, prepare for the worst.

[Allan Schumacher]

I've been posting on these forums for a few years now. In my opinion (and I could be wrong) and from my observation (which I admit is purely my own and, therefore, subjective and biased), I never saw status update fights until AFTER the PM change on the old BSN. Before, when you could PM anybody (unless they blocked you), moderators would tell off-topic banter or fights to "take it to PM" and, for the large part, it appeared that occurred. That way, people could duke it out in private, not air their dirty laundry, and hopefully come to some type of truce. After the PM system was changed so that you had to be friends before you could send a PM, that changed things. If you are having a heated disagreement with someone, adding them as a friend is not a natural inclination. THAT was when I saw fights continue on until a thread was closed... then they'd sometimes start a brand new thread just to continue the fight... and/or move the fight to status updates/newsfeeds/wall comments.

 

Honestly, I blame that on the PM change at the time more than anything else.

 

 

You're probably right that some of it just moved.

 

The reason the PM rights were altered was because people were harassing each other via PMs, to the point where alt accounts would get created.  This is more symptomatic of the back end of the BSN being incapable of properly dealing with it, and that attempting to fix it was a super high risk issue.

 

The block feature on the BSN only affected PMs, but it was trivial to circumvent it and started sucking up a lot of moderator time.  If the BSN had better content controls it'd be easier to moderate, but it didn't.

 

 

I consider myself a friendly, helpful poster. I believe the bulk of my posting history can back up that claim. And while there is a private group that I love visiting daily that is populated by lots of friends - and new friends made via said group - I have not retreated from the overall forums. I consider the groups to be supportive of my time here and help keep me here longer and visiting the forums even during periods of not-having-much-to-discuss, like right now between game releases.

There's going to be anecdotes along all sides.  People are talking in hypotheticals saying that by not allowing certain types of groups will push the otherwise helpful posters away, and I provided with a hypothetical of my own to counter it.  Another hypothetical could be that not allowing certain types of groups could push the otherwise antagonistic posters away too.  My example was to more illustrate that it's speculative and hard to state with any sort of certainty.  If you're losing a particular feature, there's going to be an inclination to worry about knock on effects, and to share the ones that you think may make the forum worse as an argument to support the feature that has been removed.

 

 

Now, your argument is that the Off-Topic Lobby exists, so why would one want to be in a group instead of posting there? My honest opinion (and, again, only my opinion)? I find the Off-Topic lobby itself to be clique-ish. Most of the regular folks posting there, I believe, have been doing so frequently and for many years. Sometimes, when someone viewed as "one of those ME3 MP players", it is not always well-received. A few of them have even come into the ME3 MP forum in the past to express disgust at our existence/perceived group behavior (as if we're a hive mind), etc. I also feel the ME3 MP players are maybe a little different group of people as - unlike a lot of the rest of the forum - most of us have actually played games with each other (specifically, a BioWare game!), chatted over the mic together, etc. That has bred, I feel, somewhat closer and stronger relationships, maybe a little smaller and more intimate than the forum as a whole. When ME3 MPers wanted to discuss something off-topic with that group of individuals they'd formed friendships with (both here on the forum and in-game), the advice was to make a group for it.

 

Is it safe to say, then, that the issue is that the Off topic forums could be improved and made less antagonistic?  I only spend a little bit of time in there, and there are threads that I'm not sure are necessarily the best types of threads to have.  I can definitely see how a fan of ME3MP could be persecuted.  If this is the case, then maybe/hopefully the improved moderation tools and reporting system can help mitigate some of the antagonism?

 

My point with this comment is more that "the forum software is different.  Previous conventions that the BSN experience may not necessarily apply anymore."  It strikes me as a huge problem if Off-topic remains clique-y and you aren't welcome there simply because you're a fan of ME3MP.  By the same account, it's a situation that can never really be remedied if people remain segregated.  I think it's a complicated situation.

 

 

But my general feeling from the overall tone and what's being said in this thread is that the decision has already been made. Our impending demise is inevitable. There is no room for us to explain our point of view and hope for reconsideration (like what happened for Projects on the old site). I guess I owe a thanks for the heads up, at least. As much as I would like to spend the majority of my time here (like I have the past few years now), it seems time for me to start looking at free forum software on the Internet and spend some time recreating a group once again so that ME3 MPers can continue to be off-topic in a place they feel welcomed and bounce back and forth between that separate, non-BioWare forum and the actual BioWare forum here for public discussion. That's a far more tedious solution than I was hoping would come out of this discussion, but that is how life goes, I suppose.

 

You're probably right in the immediate aftermath of the transition.  I mean, I know some groups were already created that immediately returned to doing what we didn't like them doing on the BSN, that I feel contribute to hostility in the public parts of the forum.  There's going to be a degree of stamping out that hurtful stuff.

 

But I think there's still going to be a degree of organic measures applied.  My thoughts would be for you to create the group, and maybe touch base with Jessica directly via PM, or maybe some of the moderators, so that you can establish what would be considered acceptable.

 

I mean, if you guys mostly talk more ME3 or ME3MP in the group anyways, I'd say it'd probably still be considered relevant, even if you had some off-topic threads in there as well.

[Allan Schumacher]

 
I want to apologize to everyone in the thread - especially Allan and any other BioWare employees - if any of my postsyesterday came off as combative or entitled. That was not at all what I was trying to imply or portray. I merely wanted to present my case for supporting ALL types of groups like they were in the past. To provide my view and feelings on it. As an Aries, that sometimes means that my presentation comes off as... rougher, perhaps, than I mean it to.
 
I'm the very last person to feel BioWare owes me anything. Quite the opposite: I feel I will always owe BioWare my eternal gratitude and loyalty for the heart they showed me two years ago. I do not wear a "Loyal BioWare Fan" tag in my signature lightly.

 

You are correct in that, ultimately, this is BioWare's website/forum and we are simply guests here. They have every right to change course from past actions and change policy. If they decide to move forward and tell our group to pack up and take it elsewhere, we will do so - regretfully, but quietly and without drama. There will be no Hold The Lines or ridiculous red-green-blue cupcake-level foot-stamping from me, certainly, and I'd hope not from anyone in my group. We'll move, if needed, and while I can't speak for the rest of them, I know I will always continue to be an active and helpful member of the community here and actively participate in the on-topic discussions, no matter if my off-topic things end up having to be elsewhere on the web.

 

I am sorry to all if my outspoken nature trampled in places it shouldn't have. I really didn't mean harm or combativeness by it. I just wanted to provide my viewpoint and feelings regarding the issue.

 

I know it's just my words too, but when I say I can understand and empathize that it can suck to have something you enjoyed removed, that yeah that sucks.  If anything I'd say you're simply invested and don't want to lose a good thing that you really enjoyed.  This is a human response and I don't judge you for it.

My impressions of your (and most) posts on this topic is mostly just a degree of conveying disappointment, but no real sense of being unfair, unreasonable, hostile, or anything like that.  And it's important for me to read it because in spite of me earlier saying "If it were up to me, no groups! " comes from my own perspective of how I use the internet in my leisure time, the visibility I had on issues with the previous system, which all colour my experience.  I can at least gain your perspectives which can alter my perceptions on stuff like this.

 

For instance, the idea of someone making a group as a courtesy (i.e. my friends and I often have particular types of conversations and they dominate the off topic section, we'll move those here instead) is something that even No Groups Allan™ can say "hey thanks, that's appreciated."  Now, if someone feels that they need to run to make a group to avoid harassment, it's less that No Groups Allan™ doesn't want you to be able to talk about some things... and more that I'm much more concerned that there's an issue where BioWare fans are having a negative experience and need to create a separate, safe space... when ideally I'd really like for the whole forum to be a place where people can be reasonably safe (I may be naively ideal here... but I hope not).  That you were attacked for liking ME3 is a failure on us to provide you with an environment where you aren't subjected to that.

 

 

If a lot of groups were created as symptoms to the BSN problems (i.e. finding safe space), then maybe a brief hiccup in our standard conventions and workflows can cause a bit of a positive shift.  At the same time though, maybe No Group Allan™ underestimates some of the positive aspects of groups too and it's still useful for me to get these perspectives as they help me advocate certain positions if I ever talk with the online staff about potential concerns I have.