4196 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Ugh, I already hate her. Every single thing I hear about her makes her sound more like a hypocritical ****** who wormed her way into authority through sheer skullduggery and s****** templar d*** for extra privileges, and now she just wants things to go back to the way they were when she was on top of the world, and screw all the other mages. And she looks absolutely ridiculous. There's no way I could take her seriously, no way anybody could take me seriously with her in my party. I might need her to negotiate with her fellow Orlesian aristocrats at some point (the dread...), but otherwise I've less than no use for her. I'm conflicted about recruiting her in the first place, and I hope I'll have the option of kicking her out of the party again if I decide that that's for the best. Otherwise I think I'll just ignore her whenever possible.

 

She might turn out to be likable in the actual game, but based on what we know about her I seriously doubt that. She's the worst parts of Morrigan (ruthless, self-serving *****) and Wynne (hypocrite apologist) put together, with an even sillier wardrobe. I'm not touching that with a ten-foot pole if I can help it.

 

Tell us how you really feel

[ThomasBlaine]

I'd be very, very surprised if she wasn't arrogant. It might have more to do with the fact that she's been having tea parties with the Orlesian socialite while other mages were raped, tortured, killed, brainwashed and exploited by the system she apparently still supports, though. If she wants to be a prosperous court mage then that's her business, but then she's definitely given up her personal stake in the circle/anti-circle conflict, and I don't wanna hear a word about it from her.

[Maria Caliban]

Ugh, I already hate her. Every single thing I hear about her makes her sound more like a hypocritical ****** who wormed her way into authority through sheer skullduggery and s****** templar d*** for extra privileges, and now she just wants things to go back to the way they were when she was on top of the world, and screw all the other mages. And she looks absolutely ridiculous. There's no way I could take her seriously, no way anybody could take me seriously with her in my party. I might need her to negotiate with her fellow Orlesian aristocrats at some point (the dread...), but otherwise I've less than no use for her. I'm conflicted about recruiting her in the first place, and I hope I'll have the option of kicking her out of the party again if I decide that that's for the best. Otherwise I think I'll just ignore her whenever possible.
 
She might turn out to be likable in the actual game, but based on what we know about her I seriously doubt that. She's the worst parts of Morrigan (ruthless, self-serving *****) and Wynne (hypocrite apologist) put together, with an even sillier wardrobe. I'm not touching that with a ten-foot pole if I can help it.

I think this is a legitimate response and suspect Vivienne was written to provoke exactly this type of reaction in some players*.

Do you know what she makes me think of? Anora 2.0. It's like Mary said 'What is it that made people either hate or love Anora?' cranked it up several notches and then added Orleasean flare.

I would not be shocked at all if Vivienne turns against you if she believes you're undermining or betraying her.

* Not me, but some players.

[ThomasBlaine]

I think this is a legitimate response and suspect Vivienne was written to provoke exactly this type of reaction in some players*.

Do you know what she makes me think of? Anora 2.0. It's like Mary said 'What is it that made people either hate or love Anora?' cranked it up several notches and then added Orleasean flare.

I would not be shocked at all if Vivienne turns against you if she believes you're undermining or betraying her.

* Not me, but some players.

 

That's too bad, her personal ambitions are irrelevant to the mission. If she can't take orders and work constructively then I have no use for her, and handled right, she could be made a very good example of.

[mikeymoonshine]

That's too bad, her personal ambitions are irrelevant to the mission. If she can't take orders and work constructively then I have no use for her, and handled right, she could be made a very good example of.

 

Apparently she joins the Inquisition to help her fellow mages and because they are the only group who is standing against the chaos, those motives seem admirable enough if they are true. From what we have been hearing about her it seems like they are deliberately making her motives unclear though, Is she in the party to help others or just herself? 

[Sylvianus]

Vivienne is clearly elusive, mystical !!! I'm having hard time thinking about her personality to be honest. Less difficult to figure out for me when I think about Cassandra, Iron Bull and Sera for example. 

[Maria Caliban]

Vivienne can help save the world AND realize her personal ambitions.

Alternatively, if you valued saving the world so much, you wouldn't boot a powerful and influential mage out of your organization because she aspires to be more than your magical lackey.

[ThomasBlaine]

Apparently she joins the Inquisition to help her fellow mages and because they are the only group who is standing against the chaos, those motives seem admirable enough if they are true. From what we have been hearing about her it seems like they are deliberately making her motives unclear though, Is she in the party to help others or just herself? 

That makes very little sense. The mages are doing fine as such, they're not in any more danger than the rest of Thedas except from from rogue templars, and joining the Inquisition doesn't help them in particular. On the other hand, it's her safest political move without stepping on anyone's toes now that mages are rebelling and Orlais and the Chantry are in turmoil, to make sure that she'll be in a position to ingratiate herself with the winning factions whoever they are when things calm down.

 

Her former influence should have been thoroughly negated by now, except possibly for Celene's trust, which is, as I said, the only thing I would consider her particularly useful for. We have other, more reasonable and reliable mages, and the main goal of uniting the forces of Thedas is more diplomatic than martial. What I can't afford is for anyone to undermine or sabotage my authority, or destabilize and demoralise the rest of the team by being selfish and stupid. I'm not saying that I'll kill or boot her out for the hell of it, but she's definitely expendable and possibly a liability, especially after we've dealt with the Orlesian mess.

[Sylvianus]

Here, why she joins the inquisition : Vivienne is not the sort of person who would sit back and watch while the world crashed down around her. The Inquisition is the only group even trying to stand against the chaos. So she resorts to the only logical course of action for a courtier: she throws a party for them.

 

ivienne fights to restore order in a world gone mad…so long as that leaves her among those left standing, once all is said and done.

 

also in her letter : I'm sure I don't have to tell you, Ambassador, that the world has become a dangerous place. Wars rage across the continent, the sky is torn open, and many say the end of the world is upon us. During such chaotic times, it behooves those of us in power to aid in the restoration of peace and the establishment of order. Lives have already been lost; should we not save those we can? 

 

 

She want to survive ( socially, politically ) and to help the world at the same time. I don't think it's unreasonable. She's also proactive. Cleary, An inquisitor who is concerned about the fate of the world should work fine with Vivienne, because she is concerned too, so I'm not sure what you are arguing. I think your only legetimate issue is about the circle, you disagree with her opinion, you hate her opinion and that's a big issue for you. 

 

[godModeAlpha]

Lets take a step back, put a foot in her shoe for just a moment.

We don't know much about her history / background, but what we do know is that shes:

+ A mage, "leader among the mages and official enchanter to the Imperial court"
+ A woman of color in Orlais, known for it's snobbery and racial abuse.
+ At one point perceived as the court jester a very bad stigma especially for someone with all that magical talent.

Also known as "Madame de Fer", the Lady of Iron. Such a title is not given to just anyone. I really believe she worked hard to get where she did, despite all these obstacles.

I can't see my self doing anything different. She is a hustler, but like I mentioned before after hustling my way to the top why would I want the good times to stop.

[Sylvianus]

Yes, we know that her role should have been like a court jester, useless and just for the show, but she worked hard , and turned it to a role that has a real meaning, she has become powerful in the court of Orlais, and the personal adviser of Celene in the matters of magic. This fact alone shows me that she is awesome. 

[Gwydden]

Yes, we know that her role should have been like a court jester, useless and just for the show, but she worked hard , and turned it to a role that has a real meaning, she has become powerful in the court of Orlais, and the personal adviser of Celene in the matters of magic. This fact alone shows me that she is awesome. 

Celene worked hard to become empress too.

 

Maybe a little too hard.

[ThomasBlaine]

Again, all I'm hearing is that she managed to manipulate herself into power in a notoriously corrupt and facist system, leaving all her peers behind to misery, that contenders recognized her skill and doggedness, and that she's not satisfied with sitting back and waiting for the end. That tells us is that she's conniving, and that she has a strong instinct for self-preservation. Not exactly a great vouch for her altruism. Her letter to the Inquisitor is obviously meant to make a good impression and help convince him to accept her into the order.

[Sylvianus]

Celene worked hard to become empress too.

 

Maybe a little too hard.

 

I didn't feel that Celene worked hard to become emperess. Only 16 years old, with her royal blood and some adults ( her parents and Lady Mantillon ) doing the work for her. The only thing she had to do was to clean the dirty laundry with some innocent servants that did nothing . Vivienne is a mage, mages can't hold any political power, especially in Orlais. She just started with nothing at hands unlike Celene. I'm sure that Vivienne did some things too if that's what you meant, but Vivienne certainly had to fight against powerful opponents, rivals, enemies in a ruthless environment with the Game. As for killing probably some innocent people, that's just baseless speculation, we don't know. I was more thinking about her political enemies personally, acting against her. 

[godModeAlpha]

Again, all I'm hearing is that she managed to manipulate herself into power in a notoriously corrupt and facist system, leaving all her peers behind to misery, that contenders recognized her skill and doggedness, and that she's not satisfied with sitting back and waiting for the end. That tells us is that she's conniving, and that she has a strong instinct for self-preservation. Not exactly a great vouch for her character. Her letter to the Inquisitor is obviously meant to make a good impression and help convince him to accept her into the order.

Comes across to me as someone who plays the Orlaisian game, and plays it well.

[ThomasBlaine]

Comes across to me as someone who plays the Orlaisian game, and plays it well.

Obviously, but saving the world isn't a game. Her achievements in jogging for personal power at the expense of her rivals are cute, but they're also irrelevant in the face of the current crisis, and if she can't wrap her head around that and ends up sabotaging the mission, even mildly, then she'll deserve what she gets.

[Incantrix]

 If a mage was cunning, ruthless and proactive enough to get into the orlesian elite, why wouldn't you want her? She's the perfect kind of friend a inquisitor would want.

[ThomasBlaine]

 If a mage was cunning, ruthless and proactive enough to get into the orlesian elite, why wouldn't you want her? She's the perfect kind of friend a inquisitor would want.

Because she wouldn't be trustworthy? Because most of your other allies would take exception to her? There's a limit to how much baggage and trouble a "cunning mage" is worth.

[Sylvianus]

How do you know she isn't trustworthy ? Because she's Orlesian ? Because she plays well the game in Orlais ? Is concerned by her fate a someone who always had to watch her back as a mage and is ambitious ? How about you wait the game and talk to her ? I care about the fate of the world too. I see a powerful mage, important at the court of Orlais  with an influence and expertise that could be needed for the inquisition. And especially a mage, throwing a party for the inquisition, that is willing to save the world from chaos. Why would I ever refuse to recruit her ? 

 

Anyways, if you think that your companions will deny their feelings, their ideals, what they value for your beautiful eyes and because you give the orders, well, let me tell you that you are going to be disappointed. It is confirmed that you can finish dragon age inquisition with only one companion. 

[Han Shot First]

Obviously, but saving the world isn't a game. Her achievements in jogging for personal power at the expense of her rivals are cute, but they're also irrelevant in the face of the current crisis, and if she can't wrap her head around that and ends up sabotaging the mission, even mildly, then she'll deserve what she gets.

 

Isn't it the mage rebels who are a bigger obstacle to the accomplishing the mission at hand though? After all their foolish and ill-timed rebellion is partly responsible for the mess the Inquisitor is trying to clean up. They are the ones seeking to radically alter society, and to accomplish that end they've resorted to violence.

 

Mages like Vivienne who supported the Circle system aren't the ones responsible for the realm tearing itself apart. Its not their war, after all. And they seek a return to normalcy, not violent change.

[WildOrchid]

Because she wouldn't be trustworthy? Because most of your other allies would take exception to her? There's a limit to how much baggage and trouble a "cunning mage" is worth.

 

And what makes you think the others will be trustworthy? The only reason Viv would 'betray' you is if you go against her beliefs or do things she doesn't approve of.. as long as you want to save the world and you're friendly with mages, then you'll be safe with her.

[Neesa]

I'd be very, very surprised if she wasn't arrogant. It might have more to do with the fact that she's been having tea parties with the Orlesian socialite while other mages were raped, tortured, killed, brainwashed and exploited by the system she apparently still supports, though. If she wants to be a prosperous court mage then that's her business, but then she's definitely given up her personal stake in the circle/anti-circle conflict, and I don't wanna hear a word about it from her.

 

That can still happen outside the Circle you realize? It also doesn't help your point that you damn the system for the actions of individuals; with that logic any other alternatives would be just as repugnant.

 

Going by the interview, I suspect Vivienne believes it's wiser to bring change via influencing the way people think about mages and who better to do that with than those with political power ("...and she got used to telling the most powerful nobles in the world what to think about magic and mages"). What Mary Kirby said about "showing different ways of being powerful" is very important to that end, I think. It would probably go a long way if people could be reassured that mages with more freedom doesn't guarantee rampant abuse of magic every time a conflict with one arises.

[godModeAlpha]

Obviously, but saving the world isn't a game. Her achievements in jogging for personal power at the expense of her rivals are cute, but they're also irrelevant in the face of the current crisis, and if she can't wrap her head around that and ends up sabotaging the mission, even mildly, then she'll deserve what she gets.

She is ambitious, guess it can be scary to some.

At this point even IronBull for example who is a Qunari Spy is capable of sabotaging the mission. Who knows why Solas is an expert on the fade? What has he dabbled with in the past?

It is clear that everyone who joined the inquisition has a motive. I only hope I can convince them to follow me till then end ... maybe earn a shag or kiss along the way :-)

Modifié par godModeAlpha, 18 juin 2014 - 12:04 .

[mlgumm]

I like both Anora and Celene, so I generally like the type of personality I think Viv is going to have. That being said, I can see why others wouldn't like her. The very traits I admire in her (intelligence, determination, pragmatism) are the very things that are going to make someone else hate her (untrustworthy, selfish, ruthless). Let's just call it a matter of personal taste, yeah?

[ThomasBlaine]

How do you know she isn't trustworthy ? Because she's Orlesian ? Because she plays well the game in Orlais ? Is concerned by her fate a someone who always had to watch her back as a mage and is ambitious ? How about you wait the game and talk to her ? I care about the fate of the world too. I see a powerful mage, important at the court of Orlais  with an influence and expertise that could be needed for the inquisition. And especially a mage, throwing a party for the inquisition, that is willing to save the world from chaos. Why would I ever refuse to recruit her ? 

 

Anyways, if you think that your companions will deny their feelings, their ideals, what they value for your beautiful eyes and because you give the orders, well, let me tell you that you are going to be disappointed. It is confirmed that you can finish dragon age inquisition with only one companion. 

Uh, yes? That's exactly why. And again, her influence should be diminished by the civil war and her association with the rebellious mages, and again, yes, that influence still makes her marginally useful, but not to the point of trusting her to not screw you over, much less forgiving her for doing so. Nobody is saying that you should refuse to recruit her at all, though I'll be tempted to do it on general principle.

 

Don't be silly, I expect my companions to do as they're told when it matters and put the mission before their own desires because they realize that it really is that crucial, and that neither I nor it are there for them to take advantage of. If they can't do that then they're liabilities, and I'm not going to spend the game sucking up to them and making them my best buddies just to have a functional command. Either they're commited and there's no excuses, or they're dead weight and I'm not dragging them from one end of Thedas to the other.