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I like both Anora and Celene, so I generally like the type of personality I think Viv is going to have. That being said, I can see why others wouldn't like her. The very traits I admire in her (intelligence, determination, pragmatism) are the very things that are going to make someone else hate her (untrustworthy, selfish, ruthless). Let's just call it a matter of personal taste, yeah?
Vivi is certainly intimidating for some people. I also see why other people wouldn't like her. =)
Isn't it the mage rebels who are a bigger obstacle to the accomplishing the mission at hand though? After all their foolish and ill-timed rebellion is partly responsible for the mess the Inquisitor is trying to clean up. They are the ones seeking to radically alter society, and to accomplish that end they've resorted to violence.
Mages like Vivienne who supported the Circle system aren't the ones responsible for the realm tearing itself apart. Its not their war, after all. And they seek a return to normalcy, not violent change.
Practically, yes, but the rebellion started years before the Veil tore, it's not their fault that the two coincided like this. The rebellion came about as a direct consequence of the Circle system and those who supported it, so yes, they are partially responsible, and the "return to normalcy" they seek specifically hinges on violent mass-slavery. The fact that it took this long for it to blow up in their faces and inadverdently cause the end of the world doesn't mean it worked.
That can still happen outside the Circle you realize? It also doesn't help your point that you damn the system for the actions of individuals; with that logic any other alternatives would be just as repugnant.
Going by the interview, I suspect Vivienne believes it's wiser to bring change via influencing the way people think about mages and who better to do that with than those with political power ("...and she got used to telling the most powerful nobles in the world what to think about magic and mages"). What Mary Kirby said about "showing different ways of being powerful" is very important to that end, I think. It would probably go a long way if people could be reassured that mages with more freedom doesn't guarantee rampant abuse of magic every time a conflict with one arises.
Yes, it could still happen, but at least then they could defend themselves and it wouldn't be legitimized and treated as par for the course for mages. And I'm damning the system for the actions of the system, the flagrent abuse and mass-killing of mages by Templars is canonically widespread and deliberately overlooked by the Chantry, which is exactly what caused them to rebel.
Vivienne being in a position to shape puplic opinion on mages for the better is a valid point. If we find out that's what she's doing then I'll certainly consider that a lot of points in her favor. Her descriptions just emphasize her personal ambition and survival instincts, though, so I'm not taking it for granted.
Yes, it could still happen, but at least then they could defend themselves and it wouldn't be legitimized and treated as par for the course for mages. And I'm damning the system for the actions of the system, the flagrent abuse and mass-killing of mages by Templars is canonically widespread and deliberately overlooked by the Chantry, which is exactly what caused them to rebel.
With the exception of annulments most of those acts are not legitimized. At least not formally. I doubt the Aequitarians would be as dominant as they are if those atrocities were something every mage felt was a given as being part of a Circle. These aren't things the Templars could do willy nilly with everyone within the establishment being knowledgeable and permissive of them. We've no reason to think that's actually the case outside of some isolated cases. All this proves is that the Circle system is in need of reform so that these people don't undermine the good that could come from their existence (I think it'd work best as a mandatory educational institution that prepares mages for safely existing within society).
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the current climate allows for mages to be abused more out in the open than in a Circle; what with so many contributing to the chaos. Even with the Red Templars, I feel like the mages will get the short end of the stick when it comes down to placing blame.
I guess some people would rather have some dumb "yes sir/ma'am" mage than a mage with ambition and intelligence. People like Thomas wants a lackey to push around. When he says, "jump" the mage says, "a normal jump or with a spell?". Vivienne would never put herself into a position to become a lap dog.
If you want a lapdog then perhaps the other mages will suffice. I'm also willing to bet Morrigan wasn't your cup of tea either, huh?
That makes very little sense. The mages are doing fine as such, they're not in any more danger than the rest of Thedas except from from rogue templars, and joining the Inquisition doesn't help them in particular. On the other hand, it's her safest political move without stepping on anyone's toes now that mages are rebelling and Orlais and the Chantry are in turmoil, to make sure that she'll be in a position to ingratiate herself with the winning factions whoever they are when things calm down.
Her former influence should have been thoroughly negated by now, except possibly for Celene's trust, which is, as I said, the only thing I would consider her particularly useful for. We have other, more reasonable and reliable mages, and the main goal of uniting the forces of Thedas is more diplomatic than martial. What I can't afford is for anyone to undermine or sabotage my authority, or destabilize and demoralise the rest of the team by being selfish and stupid. I'm not saying that I'll kill or boot her out for the hell of it, but she's definitely expendable and possibly a liability, especially after we've dealt with the Orlesian mess.
It does make sense. The mages are not fine they are at war not only from templars but from Red Templars too. Also demons are a much larger threat to mages than to anyone else.
The Inquisition is a powerful group that stands for order in Thedas. The original inquisition helped mages who were not blood mages and established the circles. The inquisitor by all accounts will be seen as the next Andraste by some and is certainly a figure who people will follow. Also joining the Inquisition will step on everyone's toes because they are a rogue group who are basically there to do everyone else's job for them.
Why is her former influence negated? She's not the only mage who supports the circle system and who doesn't want war.
We have a Tervinter magister and an elf fade expert who I am pretty sure is an apostate.We don't know what their views are or how reasonable/reliable they will be. Who said Viv is unreasonable though? Who said Viv was unreliable?
Well we already know that Vivienne is not stupid and yes, she has her own goals just like the rest of the party will.
I like both Anora and Celene, so I generally like the type of personality I think Viv is going to have. That being said, I can see why others wouldn't like her. The very traits I admire in her (intelligence, determination, pragmatism) are the very things that are going to make someone else hate her (untrustworthy, selfish, ruthless). Let's just call it a matter of personal taste, yeah?
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I see her as an asset easily. So much of an asset that I hope she takes over anything part of the "Game", while I stand back like some peasant.
Useful, but just not the person I'll want to get too close to.
Ah, but close is what you need to be with persons like Vivienne. You never can fully know what she might be up to and it is good to be close by to anticipate the unexpected and act instead of reacting.
Plus, staying close to someone is easier to put a knife behind someones back, if that is the outcome one comes to...
This. Also saving Thedas would require more than magic and swordplay.
Hence why I am very much looking forward to having her as a companion. She might prove a very valuable asset to the Inquisitor not solely in the combat zone but the political as well, and her having motives of her own is already a means of further characterization on her part and I am intrigued to explore her as a character when the game is finally out.
I think she will be a "love to hate" kind of character for me. I should enjoy seeing her and my Inquisitor argue about even the most banal things 
With the exception of annulments most of those acts are not legitimized. At least not formally. I doubt the Aequitarians would be as dominant as they are if those atrocities were something every mage felt was a given as being part of a Circle. These aren't things the Templars could do willy nilly with everyone within the establishment being knowledgeable and permissive of them. We've no reason to think that's actually the case outside of some isolated cases. All this proves is that the Circle system is in need of reform so that these people don't undermine the good that could come from their existence (I think it'd work best as a mandatory educational institution that prepares mages for safely existing within society).
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the current climate allows for mages to be abused more out in the open than in a Circle; what with so many contributing to the chaos. Even with the Red Templars, I feel like the mages will get the short end of the stick when it comes down to placing blame.the
Aha. The blatant abuse and mass-killings aren't always formally legitimized. I guess it's not such a bad system after all. 
Ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? If you had been at the utter and complete mercy of brawny, heavily armed, self-righteous drug addicts who hated you for being alive from early childhood, would you seriously go around talking about escaping or rebelling, much less join an open society for fellow prisoners who felt the same way? Of course the majority of circle mages are self-professed Aequitarians, they're scared out of their minds. I agree that a reformed Circle system would be a step up, but such a reform would never be possible without a rebellion in the first place.
Your argument being that since they can get hurt and get a bad rep defending themselves, they should obviously just submit to slavery and genocide? I don't know which mages you're talking about, but the ones I know can throw lightning and heal each others' wounds en masse. I'm sure they'd politely appreciate your concern. 
I guess some people would rather have some dumb "yes sir/ma'am" mage than a mage with ambition and intelligence. People like Thomas wants a lackey to push around. When he says, "jump" the mage says, "a normal jump or with a spell?". Vivienne would never put herself into a position to become a lap dog.
If you want a lapdog then perhaps the other mages will suffice. I'm also willing to bet Morrigan wasn't your cup of tea either, huh?
I want trustworthy, reliable agents and advisors when I'm trying to save the world, thank you very much. Not only is your comment incredibly presumptuous and rude, not to mention poorly articulated, but it also completely misses the point. I liked Morrigan just fine, mostly because she was beautifully written, but one Morrigan is enough and the stakes are supposed to be higher this time. If your inquisitor doesn't take the mission seriously and surrounds him/herself with nutcases and extra-special snowflakes with no thought to actual effeciency then that's their headache, and yours too, I suppose.
It does make sense. The mages are not fine they are at war not only from templars but from Red Templars too. Also demons are a much larger threat to mages than to anyone else. Also joining the Inquisition will step on everyone's toes because they are a rogue group who are basically there to do everyone else's job for them. Why is her former influence negated? She's not the only mage who supports the circle system and who doesn't want war. We have a Tervinter magister and an elf fade expert who I am pretty sure is an apostate.We don't know what their views are or how reasonable/reliable they will be. Who said Viv is unreasonable though? Who said Viv was unreliable?
Everybody is at war, and unlike everyone else the mages have magic, which is, as I'm sure you'll agree, pretty handy for defending yourself. Why are demons a larger threat to mages than anyone else? With them having direct access to the physical world now, the likelihood of demon possession should decrease dramatically. If anything, mages are better equipped to deal with them than the rest. Joining the neutral and completely unaffiliated Inquisition allows her to influence the order in favor of her prospective benefactors and leave whenever she wants, and should the Inquisition actually succeed in its goal then she would end up with even more authority than she had before, and even if it doesn't, she'll be able to ride events out and then join the winning factions denying that she ever sided against them, no matter who wins. Her former influence is negated because her country is undergoing two entirely seperate civil wars. She might be able to throw a small party and keep up on current events, but no way her power, or anyone else's for that matter, extends much farther than that with Orlais in its current state. Vi is unreliable because she's an ambitious connvier who apparently supports a disastrously cruel, corrupt and faulty system for her own benefit. That's it.
This. Also saving Thedas would require more than magic and swordplay.
There's plenty of magic to go around. She won't personally make that much of a difference, and if she's more trouble than she's worth anyway...
Everybody is at war, and unlike everyone else the mages have magic, which is, as I'm sure you'll agree, pretty handy for defending yourself. Why are demons a larger threat to mages than anyone else? With them having direct access to the physical world now, the likelihood of demon possession should decrease dramatically. If anything, mages are better equipped to deal with them than the rest. Joining the neutral and completely unaffiliated Inquisition allows her to influence the order in favor of her prospective benefactors and leave whenever she wants, and should the Inquisition actually succeed in its goal then she would end up with even more authority than she had before, and even if it doesn't, she'll be able to ride events out and then join the winning factions denying that she ever sided against them, no matter who wins. Her former influence is negated because her country is undergoing two entirely seperate civil wars. She might be able to throw a small party and keep up on current events, but no way her power, or anyone else's for that matter, extends much farther than that with Orlais in its current state. Vi is unreliable because she's an ambitious connvier who apparently supports a disastrously cruel, corrupt and faulty system for her own benefit. That's it.
Magic is handy in defending yourself but it is not without it's limits. Templars are also specifically trained to fight mages and have the power to combat and defend against magic due to their lyrium consumption. We really don't know what demons will do in the physical world or what their goals are, maybe they will still want to poses people if so mages are still easier to poses.
You know this whole "Vivienne would join the winning faction" is pure speculation on your part. We have the ability to get on the wrong side of every companion to the point that all but one of them leaves the party, I doubt that one will be Vivienne. If you do things she thoroughly disagrees with she will leave (or something) so why would she join a winning side she didn't agree with at all?
Also you are completely ignoring the possible risks of joining a group like the Inquisition. What if they were shut down by someone, do you think that would not reflect badly on her at all in any circumstance?
Why don't you just say "her former influences is negated because I say it is" because you really added nothing with that point. You don't know that it is not still intact so stop acting like you do.
"Vivienne is unreliable because I don't support the circle and she does for reasons I don't like" Again, completely meaningless and more about you than her. You don't know if she is reliable or not.
Aha. The blatant abuse and mass-killings aren't always formally legitimized. I guess it's not such a bad system after all.
Your argument being that since they can get hurt and get a bad rep defending themselves, they should obviously just submit to slavery and genocide? I don't know which mages you're talking about, but the ones I know can throw lightning and heal each others' wounds en masse. I'm sure they'd politely appreciate your concern.
I want trustworthy, reliable agents and advisors when I'm trying to save the world, thank you very much. Not only is your comment incredibly presumptuous and rude, not to mention poorly articulated, but it also completely misses the point. I liked Morrigan just fine, mostly because she was beautifully written, but one Morrigan is enough and the stakes are supposed to be higher this time. If your inquisitor doesn't take the mission seriously and surrounds him/herself with nutcases and extra-special snowflakes with no thought to actual effeciency then that's their headache, and yours too, I suppose.
Everybody is at war, and unlike everyone else the mages have magic, which is, as I'm sure you'll agree, pretty handy for defending yourself. Why are demons a larger threat to mages than anyone else? With them having direct access to the physical world now, the likelihood of demon possession should decrease dramatically. If anything, mages are better equipped to deal with them than the rest. Joining the neutral and completely unaffiliated Inquisition allows her to influence the order in favor of her prospective benefactors and leave whenever she wants, and should the Inquisition actually succeed in its goal then she would end up with even more authority than she had before, and even if it doesn't, she'll be able to ride events out and then join the winning factions denying that she ever sided against them, no matter who wins. Her former influence is negated because her country is undergoing two entirely seperate civil wars. She might be able to throw a small party and keep up on current events, but no way her power, or anyone else's for that matter, extends much farther than that with Orlais in its current state. Vi is unreliable because she's an ambitious connvier who apparently supports a disastrously cruel, corrupt and faulty system for her own benefit. That's it.
There's plenty of magic to go around. She won't personally make that much of a difference, and if she's more trouble than she's worth anyway...
One will need more than magic and swordplay - meaning other skills such as influence etc, would be required to build the inquisition.
Viv already has a leg up in this department, she'll be like a minister of foreign affairs.
BTW ThomasBlaine, Anaylys of your previous comments indicates that you are pro mage, and i can understand why you might have a problem with Viv. Shes a mage who supports the circle. You have previously mentioned that you disliked Wynne too.
If I was in Thedas I wouldn't support the circles, at least not in their current state but that doesn't make me unable to see the other side and I don't see any good reason to hate characters who disagree with you. I just think that's childish.
Aha. The blatant abuse and mass-killings aren't always formally legitimized. I guess it's not such a bad system after all.
That's not what I said at all. And the Right of Annulment is not a decision carried out lightly or as indiscriminately as you insist on implying.
Ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? If you had been at the utter and complete mercy of brawny, heavily armed, self-righteous drug addicts who hated you for being alive from early childhood, would you seriously go around talking about escaping or rebelling, much less join an open society for fellow prisoners who felt the same way?
I'm sure there is some degree of fear involved. Fear of being a danger to those on the outside. Say what you will about the Templars, that doesn't change the history of Thedas which probably has more bearing on how Aequitarians think than your theory about rampant Stockholm Syndrome being at play.
Your argument being that since they can get hurt and get a bad rep defending themselves, they should obviously just submit to slavery and genocide? I don't know which mages you're talking about, but the ones I know can throw lightning and heal each others' wounds en masse. I'm sure they'd politely appreciate your concern.
No. My argument is that you need to stop oversimplifying the situation.
Regarding Annulment.
"Normally, the Right can only be invoked by a Grand Cleric or a de facto successor (Revered Mother); if there is no access to a Grand Cleric or Revered Mother, then Knight-Commanders of the Templar Order have legal authority to invoke the Right.[4]Depending on the exact circumstances and how long it takes the relevant Grand Cleric to respond, the Right can be invoked but not carried out."
So if we take DA2's annulment as an example it's debatable as to whether or not that was legal. I think it probably wasn't because the reason for it had nothing to do with the circle. However the fact that the First Enchanter and allot of the other mages in the circle were blood mages and became abominations may have legitimized that annulment in the eyes of many.
We don't actually know what these "Circumstances" are that allow a Knight Commander to invoke the Right but I doubt it's "rogue apostate bombs Chantry".
Lets take a step back, put a foot in her shoe for just a moment.
+ A woman of color in Orlais, known for it's snobbery and racial abuse.
Did one of the books state that the Orlesians had issues with skin color?
If not, we shouldn't assume that it would be an issue. So far we haven't seen much evidence in the games of characters discriminating based on skin color. The Orlesians can be quite racist of course, but their racial animus seems to be directed at elves rather humans of different shades.
Did one of the books state that the Orlesians had issues with skin color?
If not, we shouldn't assume that it would be an issue. So far we haven't seen much evidence in the games of characters discriminating based on skin color. The Orlesians can be quite racist of course, but their racial animus seems to be directed at elves rather humans of different shades.
You are right we have not, maybe because there has not been a person of colour, I am aware off, in the Orlais / books.
We don't actually know what these "Circumstances" are that allow a Knight Commander to invoke the Right but I doubt it's "rogue apostate bombs Chantry".
She was the highest ranking official after the Chantry was bombed, Gaider said that she was legally allowed to call it, even if she may catch heck for her reasoning later
Bringing this back! Pleaseeeeeee be a bi option!
Hahaha, love this fanart. But, if she is the bi option, you couldn't have Cassandra Div'. 
Hahaha, love this fanart. But, if she is the bi option, you couldn't have Cassandra Div'.
Bringing this back! Pleaseeeeeee be a bi option!
This qunari tho is so freaking attractive....
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